When I try to find if an NPC is lying using a sense motive skill the DM will decide if success/failure or I should use DC 20 (hunch) and decide success/failure myself?
Unless you can read the GM's mind then there would be no way for you (as a player) to know if your PC was successful or not. ;) Mind you, even if you can read your GM's mind as a player, that would be player knowledge and not character knowledge. Your character should only be acting on information they themselves would know, therefore your GM will have to inform you what your sense motive check reveals.
As for the DC, that will be set based on the results of the NPC's bluff check.
Them what is this table in the PRD for:
Task/Sense Motive DC
Hunch/20
Sense enchantment/25 or 15
Discern secret message/Varies (depending of bluff)
Just below that table it describes what each of those are for.
As for the "hunch", I typically use that to help players decode an NPC's body language. i.e. I'll factor their sense motive results into whether I simply say "the NPC smiles", or "the NPC smiles nervously as if there was something they aren't mentioning". I use that mechanic all the time in Play by Posts.
When I try to find if an NPC is lying using a sense motive skill the DM will decide if success/failure or I should use DC 20 (hunch) and decide success/failure myself?
You ask the DM "Do I get the feeling this guy is lying to me?"
The DM rolls a d20 behind the screen, and modifies it based on your sense motive skill. If you beat the opponents bluff check (also rolled secretly behind the screen) then the DM tells you "Yeah, he doesn't seem to be telling the truth."
For Hunch/sense enchantment, it's the same thing, only with a set DC rather than an opposed bluff check.
Just below that table it describes what each of those are for.
As for the "hunch", I typically use that to help players decode an NPC's body language. i.e. I'll factor their sense motive results into whether I simply say "the NPC smiles", or "the NPC smiles nervously as if there was something they aren't mentioning". I use that mechanic all the time in Play by Posts.
So if a PC is trying to get a "hunch" he will roll against DC 20 or the table is only provided as "sample DC"?
For Hunch/sense enchantment, it's the same thing, only with a set DC rather than an opposed bluff check.
So basically If I roll a sense motive (hunch) and I got a total of 21 (for example) them I automatically know that I succeed even if I have to wait for the GM to "make it official" and provide me info base on that!
What I mean is I can now in advance that I succeed even before the GM actually telling that!
So if a PC is trying to get a "hunch" he will roll against DC 20 or the table is only provided as "sample DC"?
He will ask the DM if he has any feelings about the situation. The DM will roll a d20 behind the screen and modify it based on the PCs sense motive skill. If that check is 20 or higher, then the DM will tell the player what he's sensing. ("These guys seem pretty edgy, you get the feeling something is about to happen...")
Since the player can't see the result of the dice roll, he only knows what the DM tells him.
Just below that table it describes what each of those are for.
I actually did read the descriptions. What I want to know is if those DC are the actual DC that I will roll against or if they are just "sample DC".
Since the player can't see the result of the dice roll, he only knows what the DM tells him.
Why the GM roll my sense motive? don't I get to roll all my skills rolls? The CRB Reads: In order to determine success, whenever you
attempt to use a skill, YOU must make a skill check.
I was pretty certain there was an actual rule about that, but I can't seem to find it. It might just be standard practice at many tables.
Secret rolls are often used to keep player knowledge and character knowledge separate. If you want to tell if an NPC is lying, and you roll a 1, and the DM tells you that you believe him, you're not going to trust that as much as if you had rolled well.
In cases where success or failure will be obvious (i.e. does your sword connect with the enemy, do you climb the wall) then yes, you'll make your own die rolls. However when an unknown success or failure can be relevant to suspense, it is customary for the GM to make such rolls in secret.
Can it be something like?
DM: A beautiful lady invite you to her place!
PC: I roll sense motive (Hunch) 120+4 =16+4=20
PC OOC: Nice I succeed!
DM: You notice that something weird is going on!
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Since the player can't see the result of the dice roll, he only knows what the DM tells him.Why the GM roll my sense motive? don't I get to roll all my skills rolls? The CRB Reads: In order to determine success, whenever you
attempt to use a skill, YOU must make a skill check.
Usually the Gm would roll to prevent players from Metagaming.
Example: You roll a Sense Motive check and get a 20+10 from modifiers equaling 30, well you out of character knows that you nailed your roll so whatever the GM tells you is true.
Example:Same as above but your GM secretly rolled and you got a total of 30 with modifiers.Your GM then tells you that your character believes the guy. It prevents out of character knowledge from creeping in. You only know what your GM tells you, not what your dice tell you.
I do not even let my players roll perception checks. It prevents them from metagaming when they roll low. Say they roll perception and they all get 1's, they might be encouraged to sit in the room or wherever they are and continue rolling until they get higher results because they know they would most likely have failed due to knowing the results of the die roll. When I roll it secretly for them they know only what I tell them they know, not what the dice tells them.
Can it be something like?
DM: A beautiful lady invite you to her place!
PC: I roll sense motive (Hunch) 120+4 =15+4=20
PC OOC: Nice I succeed!DM: You notice that something weird is going on!
Well this is where the GM himself would make a DC 1 Knowledge: Mathematics check to recognize that you got a 20 instead of a 19 when adding 15 and 4. What happens after that depends on how gracious they are feeling I guess...
That happen when one post at the same time is answering an angry person phone call! LOL
If you don't play with hidden information, the GM shouldn't inverse the result if you fail.
Example: I roll sense motive, get 20+
GM: Yes, something just doesn't add up, or nay he seems in earnest.
Roll 19-
GM: You do not know. (as opposed to saying the opposite, in which case people may metagame).
So basically If I roll a sense motive (hunch) and I got a total of 21 (for example) them I automatically know that I succeed even if I have to wait for the GM to "make it official" and provide me info base on that!
What I mean is I can now in advance that I succeed even before the GM actually telling that!
The problem with you acting directly upon the "success" before the DM gives you information is that there might not actually have been anything to pick up on. Perhaps the NPC wasn't lying, or there was nothing strange about the situation.
Besides, there is a difference between a hunch and an opposed roll vs bluff. A hunch can give you information like "you think something is off about this man's behavior" (but you wouldn't know if that's nervousness or an act of lying), while succeeding on an opposed roll vs bluff could provide "you're pretty sure this man is lying".