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I see absolutely no problem with that kind of transfer. So what if the wizard gets the lasting benefit of having access to the spell? If I pour a potion down an unconscious fighter's throat he gets the lasting benefit of not being dead. Two wizards can pretty clearly do it, or even go splitsies on one scroll.
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Actually that's pretty much exactly what the PFS rules imply. Aram Zey, to note an example has his own buisness and his own agenda, he's not going to open his book for you plebes.
Who gives a goblins behind about his personal books? I'm talking about the library of spells maintained by the Pathfinder society. Go ahead, try telling me they don't have one.
I know what the FAQ states and I'm saying it doesn't make sense, why penalize arcane spellcasters and overly tax them for learning new spells? Why overide the system in the core rulebook? Look at Dragonmoons example for scroll costs vs spell costs from the CRB, what wizard player is going to put up with that?
I know I'm certainly not.
You won't see my wizard at any table until this is changed to reflect a more fair and balanced system, which is a shame really, since whenever we play, he's usually the only one with any knoweldge skills (and we all know that you never need anyone with those to complete the faction missions or the scenario). It might sound petty, but so is this whole situation.
The heck with it, I'm going to go make a half-orc barbarian.
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| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the errata. |
I would not allow Player A to buy a scroll for Player B with the express intent of Player B copying it into her spellbook at my table.
Why? Because you transferring value to another player and that is not allowed.
In Pathfinder Society Organized Play, you may never buy items from, sell items to, or trade items with another player. You may, however, allow another player to borrow an item for the duration of a scenario. You are also permitted to spend your character’s gold to help a party member purchase spellcasting services such as raise dead or remove disease.
This my interpretation of the Guide.
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Would you "allow Player A to buy a scroll for Player B with the express intent of Player B " using the scroll for any purpose other than scribing it to his book? What purposes are allowed at your table?I would not allow Player A to buy a scroll for Player B with the express intent of Player B copying it into her spellbook at my table.
Why? Because you transferring value to another player and that is not allowed.
This my interpretation of the Guide.
In Pathfinder Society Organized Play, you may never buy items from, sell items to, or trade items with another player. You may, however, allow another player to borrow an item for the duration of a scenario. You are also permitted to spend your character’s gold to help a party member purchase spellcasting services such as raise dead or remove disease.
The answer to that question has no relevance to spellbooks.
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The answer to that question has no relevance to spellbooks.Would you "allow Player A to buy a scroll for Player B with the express intent of Player B " using the scroll for any purpose other than scribing it to his book? What purposes are allowed at your table?I would not allow Player A to buy a scroll for Player B with the express intent of Player B copying it into her spellbook at my table.
Why? Because you transferring value to another player and that is not allowed.
This my interpretation of the Guide.
In Pathfinder Society Organized Play, you may never buy items from, sell items to, or trade items with another player. You may, however, allow another player to borrow an item for the duration of a scenario. You are also permitted to spend your character’s gold to help a party member purchase spellcasting services such as raise dead or remove disease.
Sure it does. We need to make sure it isn't a double standard you are proposing or enforcing.
Can I buy a scroll to feed it to Player B's familiar? Is it handled differently if Player B is a Wizard or a Witch?
Can I buy a scroll of X, and lend it to Player B, who can cast it, with the command, "Use this if the situation warrants, but, to make my bookkeeping simpler, and keep my load of junk simpler, if it isn't used by the end of the adventure, you can scribe it to your spellbook."
How is it different spending 25 gp for a bribe, or spending 25 gp for a scroll of Endure Elements?
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It's also allowed for me to buy a scroll, scribe it into MY OWN spellbook, and then let my buddy scribe it from mine to his.Yes and?
And you said you would disallow that exact situation except without me scribing it into my own book first. I still buy the scroll, my buddy still ends up with the spell in his spellbook.
What's so different that you would feel the need to disallow it?
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The difference Jiggy one is allowed by PFS rules, the other is not.
I am confused on why this is being brought up as a question?
You cannot buy a consumable for someone that they can keep after the scenario is over, by allowing them to scribe the scroll in their book that is exactly what you are doing which is why it is not allowed.
Now yes you can buy a scroll add it to your spellbook and then let another Wizard scribe from your book.
The First is explicitly pointed out as not allowed while the second is explicitly pointed out as allowed.
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Can you can buy a scroll and give it to someone to use during the scenario (he would of course have to give it back if he doesn't use it by the end of the scenario)?Yes, just like you can buy a potion and lend that to someone to use, or buy a wand and lend that to someone to use.
But "use" can't mean "scribe from"? Only "cast from"?
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In Pathfinder Society Organized Play, you may never buy items from, sell items to, or trade items with another player. You may, however, allow another player to borrow an item for the duration of a scenario.
Since they are putting the spell in their spell book it is something tangible that goes beyond the duration of the Scenario, therefore it is not allowed. Unless of course Mike decides to make an exception.
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In Pathfinder Society Organized Play, you may never buy items from, sell items to, or trade items with another player. You may, however, allow another player to borrow an item for the duration of a scenario.Since they are putting the spell in their spell book it is something tangible that goes beyond the duration of the Scenario, therefore it is not allowed. Unless of course Mike decides to make an exception.
Hmm, let's say the rogue needed to dispel some effect with dispel magic that was DC 26 to dispel. Obviously this can't be done with a CL 5 scroll, but let's say the party wizard was level 7. Would you allow the rogue to give a scroll to the wizard, have the wizard scribe it into his book and cast until the dispel worked and then have the spell disappear from the wizard's book at the end of the scenario?
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By that interpretation, you can't actually lend someone a potion and have them use it, purely because if they use it, they can't give it back at the end of the scenario, which is what borrowing entails. The person who used the potion has the lasting effect of surviving the encounter.
You don't borrow a can of juice to drink.
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In Pathfinder Society Organized Play, you may never buy items from, sell items to, or trade items with another player. You may, however, allow another player to borrow an item for the duration of a scenario.Since they are putting the spell in their spell book it is something tangible that goes beyond the duration of the Scenario, therefore it is not allowed. Unless of course Mike decides to make an exception.
Ugh. I actually agree with Dragnmoon on something. I feel dirty.
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By that interpretation, you can't actually lend someone a potion and have them use it, purely because if they use it, they can't give it back at the end of the scenario, which is what borrowing entails. The person who used the potion has the lasting effect of surviving the encounter.
You don't borrow a can of juice to drink.
This is where it gets a bit confusing, and I wish it was clarified in the guide (Has it yet?). They have said on the boards at least that consumables can be lent and used by other players. Though the stipulation that any effects that last longer than the scenario still end at the end of the scenario.
And Rogue Eidolon that is a very good queestion, and a question I am going to leave up to Mike or Mark to answer.
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One of the concepts for Nosig's rogue/wizard character (lending his spellbook to other wizards) is based on explicitly letting wizards around the "wizards are required to spend money on scrolls to learn new spells" gold sink that only happens in PFS (the differences between CRB and PFS in this respect are huge, as shown in one of the previous posts).
Why is it that PFS penalizes wizards/alchemists who have the misfortune to not group with other wizards? You can end up with a huge effective wealth discrepancy between two wizards of the exact same level who have played the exact same scenarios and succeeded at exactly the same rate in the various encounters, purely because one wizard played with another wizard, while the other wizard played without.
No other classes in PFS can have their wealth directly determined by who they play with (aside from incidentally via successes at encounters).
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No other classes in PFS can have their wealth directly determined by who they play with
Which goes back to the original point of this thread: the artificial increase in price for wizards in PFS to gain new spells compared to the Core Rulebook. Using CRB pricing, the difference between solo wizards and wizards with friends would be MUCH smaller.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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Ugh. I actually agree with Dragnmoon on something. I feel dirty.In Pathfinder Society Organized Play, you may never buy items from, sell items to, or trade items with another player. You may, however, allow another player to borrow an item for the duration of a scenario.Since they are putting the spell in their spell book it is something tangible that goes beyond the duration of the Scenario, therefore it is not allowed. Unless of course Mike decides to make an exception.
I still have problems with the logic here.
If Wizard A buys a scroll, scribes it in his spell book, lends the scroll to Wizard B, and then lets Wizard B scribe it from the spell book, that's legal.
If wizard A buys the scroll, doesn't scribe it in his spell book, lends the scroll to Wizard B, and Wizard B scribes the spell directly from the scroll, that's not legal.
In each case Wizard A pays the purchase cost of the scroll, and Wizard B pays the cost of scribing it in his own spell book. The only difference is that Wizard A pays the additional cost, in the first scenario, of scribing the spell in his own spellbook. But that's OK, because Wizard A also has the benefit of having the scroll in his list of spells known, exactly as if Wizard B had not been present. As far as the "transfer of wealth" is concerned, the two scenarios are identical. And yet somehow one is legal, but the other is not?
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I still have problems with the logic here.
If Wizard A buys a scroll, scribes it in his spell book, lends the scroll to Wizard B, and then lets Wizard B scribe it from the spell book, that's legal.
If wizard A buys the scroll, doesn't scribe it in his spell book, lends the scroll to Wizard B, and Wizard B scribes the spell directly from the scroll, that's not legal.
In each case Wizard A pays the purchase cost of the scroll, and Wizard B pays the cost of scribing it in his own spell book. The only difference is that Wizard A pays the additional cost, in the first scenario, of scribing the spell in his own spellbook. But that's OK, because Wizard A also has the benefit of having the scroll in his list of spells known, exactly as if Wizard B had not been present. As far as the "transfer of wealth" is concerned, the two scenarios are identical. And yet somehow one is legal, but the other is not?
Just to get any nitpicking out of the way, by scroll, I'm sure JohnF means spellbook.
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By that interpretation, you can't actually lend someone a potion and have them use it, purely because if they use it, they can't give it back at the end of the scenario, which is what borrowing entails. The person who used the potion has the lasting effect of surviving the encounter.
You don't borrow a can of juice to drink.
This is where it gets a bit confusing, and I wish it was clarified in the guide (Has it yet?). They have said on the boards at least that consumables can be lent and used by other players. Though the stipulation that any effects that last longer than the scenario still end at the end of the scenario.
And Rogue Eidolon that is a very good queestion, and a question I am going to leave up to Mike or Mark to answer.
Of course, that leads to the question of whether scribing a spell from a scroll, which leaves teh scroll blank as though the spell had been cast from it, would be "using" the scroll, or something different.
X lends Y a scroll. Y uses the scroll. Does it have a great bearing if the scroll was used up to cast Z effect, or used up to scribe the spell into Y's spellbook?
In the short term, it costs X AA gp for the situation, but, in the long term, it can also cause X to save a bunch of gold. If I wind up adventuring with Wizard Y, and I buy a scroll of Haste for him to cast. Every time. Wouldn't it be better, all around, if he scribed Haste into his spellbook so he can cast it for no additional cost from me?
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In Pathfinder Society Organized Play, you may never buy items from, sell items to, or trade items with another player. You may, however, allow another player to borrow an item for the duration of a scenario.
Let's break this down:
"You may never buy items from [another player]"
Check. The only purchase is from the usual NPC vendors, not from another PC.
"[You may never] sell items to [another player]"
Check. See above.
"[You may never] trade items with another player."
Check. The first wizard receives nothing, so there is no trading of items.
So the situation in question does not violate ANY of the Guide's "you may never"s. Now, let's look at the next sentence:
"You may, however, allow another player to borrow an item for the duration of a scenario."
So as long as the item is borrowed only for the duration of the scenario, we're fine. So what item did the first wizard lend the second one that the second wizard kept after the scenario? It wasn't the scroll - that got used up. It wasn't the spell in the second wizard's spellbook - that was never in the first wizard's possession.
So, what item did the first wizard loan to the second wizard for longer than the duration of the scenario?
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The fact the wizards etc. can copy spells lets them transfer wealth permanently. It just does. I can lend somebody my spellbook, they can copy from it and they get a permanent benefit from borrowing somebody else's item. That's how it's supposed to work. Scrolls work exactly the same way, except they are consumed, but consuming somebody else's item is perfectly ok. Some people in this thread seem to be reflexively opposing that all and trying to make a dumb rule (wizards paying scroll price instead of half scribe price) even dumber.
Is buying a Raise Dead spell for another person not permitted either? It's a permanent transfer of wealth. It certainly has an effect the persists past the end of the scenario.
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If we're going with the anybody can buy the wizard scrolls to scribe into the book theory. I would like to present the following reprehensible scenario:
Playing with a 7th level pregen. At the end of the scenario the Pregens sells everything on their sheet for 1/2 gold and buys a bunch of scrolls that the wizard copies into their sheet.
Now obviously this is an extreme example, but it's possible assuming you let others buy scrolls for the wizard. There are also a host of other abuses that don't even involve pregens.
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Same thing, is probably technically legal as per RAW but I find it against the spirit of the rules. However it's the sort of fiddly problem that it's hard to make the rules deal with without them taking 123897124091845 pages and becoming basically unreadable.
Assuming PFS wants to continue limiting spellbook access, is there an easy way to write a rule to fix this loophole?
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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I think far too much time is being spent arguing the minutiae of a second-order effect, while ignoring the fundamental issue. The root cause is that wizards can copy spells from found items, and from other character's spellbooks, quite cheaply. Buying a scroll in order to copy the spell from it, no matter who is paying, is just not a cost-effective technique. So while it may, theoretically, allow the possibility of wealth transfer between characters, it's a very expensive way to do so - the effective wealth transferred is only a small fraction of the cost involved.
An example: my 3rd-level magus just completed a scenario where we defeated a magic-using opponent. In his spell book were twelve spells, eight of which were on the magus spell list. As they were all fourth-level or lower, and I had a +9 on my spellcraft check, I was able to scribe all those scrolls into my spellbook for just the material cost. There were also a few scrolls we found during the adventure, although the majority of those spells were not on the magus spell list.
Had the other arcane caster in the party not been an alchemist, I would also have been able to copy spells from his spellbook as well.
And that's for a somewhat restricted class - the magus. A wizard would have been able to add maybe twice as many spells to his spellbook under the same circumstances.
Given all these (perfectly legal) ways for me to add spells to my spellbook cheaply, I don't think I would have too much luck persuading other characters to pay a significant multiple of that price except in very rare situations.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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I think far too much time is being spent arguing the minutiae of a second-order effect, while ignoring the fundamental issue. The root cause is that wizards can copy spells from found items, and from other character's spellbooks, quite cheaply. Buying a scroll in order to copy the spell from it, no matter who is paying, is just not a cost-effective technique. So while it may, theoretically, allow the possibility of wealth transfer between characters, it's a very expensive way to do so - the effective wealth transferred is only a small fraction of the cost involved.
An example: my 3rd-level magus just completed a scenario where we defeated a magic-using opponent. In his spell book were twelve spells, eight of which were on the magus spell list. As they were all fourth-level or lower, and I had a +9 on my spellcraft check, I was able to scribe all those scrolls into my spellbook for just the material cost. There were also a few scrolls we found during the adventure, although the majority of those spells were not on the magus spell list.
Had the other arcane caster in the party not been an alchemist, I would also have been able to copy spells from his spellbook as well.
And that's for a somewhat restricted class - the magus. A wizard would have been able to add maybe twice as many spells to his spellbook under the same circumstances.
Given all these (perfectly legal) ways for me to add spells to my spellbook cheaply, I don't think I would have too much luck persuading other characters to pay a significant multiple of that price except in very rare situations.
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The opportunity to learn spells from another PC's book is the root of the "problem." If you think scroll costs should be a limitation you're assigning a pretty high monetary value to spells known.
When two wizards exchange spells, they're basically creating wealth out of nothing. If the CRB price (half scribe cost) were used, the wealth gained is quite small. When spells are valued at scroll costs they are worth 9 times as much, the wizards are creating a lot of value and tricks like nosig's rogue become a big deal.
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Please don't take this as an insult nosig, *now that I said that you will ;)* but the amount of times I have seen you incorrect on PFS rules I would request some time with you after a game if you were at any of my tables.
I would use that time to go through all your characters with a fine tooth comb to see if there were any errors and point them out to you. I would not make the corrections, I would just point them out to you and explain why they are errors.
I would do this not because I think you are cheating, I don't, only due to the fact you seem to have a home group that does not have a very good grasp on the PFS rules based on stories you have told. And bad habits in a group usually spread to all the players. It has happened in my group on occasion, luckily I have caught them all or others in our group have.
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I don't see "lending a scroll " to a wizard, who uses it to copy it into his spellbook as being any different from a fighter who gives the cleric a scroll of remove paralysis to use. The consumable is bought by character a, lent to character b, and used up.
It doesn't violate any of the society guides stipulations.
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I don't see "lending a scroll " to a wizard, who uses it to copy it into his spellbook as being any different from a fighter who gives the cleric a scroll of remove paralysis to use. The consumable is bought by character a, lent to character b, and used up.
It doesn't violate any of the society guides stipulations.
In spirit, if not in technicality depending on how you look at it, the scroll and thus the wealth has gone into the wizards spellbook, rather than going POOF into the ether the way a depleted scroll or wand charge does.