Wizard Spellbooks

[Jiggy]

I just realized that the FAQ on scribing spells into your spellbook includes this line:

"An NPC isn't just going to give you access to his spells for free, and purchasing a scroll of that spell represents the cost of gaining access to his spellbook."

In the Core Rules, you can access a spell from an NPC's spellbook for the much lower price of half the cost of the actual scribing.

I'm just curious, why was this changed? And perhaps more importantly, why was such a drastic change in the cost of wizardry tucked away in such a general FAQ entry? It seems significant enough to warrant its own space, I would think. Any chance of feedback from the big man?

[nosig]

hay, can I make money selling access to my spell book?
(yah-yah, I know. you can't make money on this).

[Tim Statler]

If I'm playing my Necromancer, I will gladly trade spells on a 1 for 1 basis. (seems half his wealth has gone for scrolls or Pearls of Power anyway.)

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

I'm guessing Jiggy, that this is the easiest way to ensure that everything is spent appropriately.

In a home campaign, as a GM, I can control when and where spellcaster NPCs show up, what their personalities are, and how likely they'd be to share a spellbook.

In PFS, each GM is going to have their own ideas on this.

So to make sure things are done the same across the boards, its the cost of a scroll.

[Dragnmoon]

Andrew Christian wrote:

In a home campaign, as a GM, I can control when and where spellcaster NPCs show up, what their personalities are, and how likely they'd be to share a spellbook.

I don't personally see it this way, I see it similar to Spellcaster services, do you limit players to get access to that beyond what can be gotten due to the size of the City?

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

Dragnmoon wrote:

Andrew Christian wrote:

In a home campaign, as a GM, I can control when and where spellcaster NPCs show up, what their personalities are, and how likely they'd be to share a spellbook.

I don't personally see it this way, I see it similar to Spellcaster services, do you limit players to get access to that beyond what can be gotten due to the size of the City?

In a home campaign I might. In PFS I can't because they have guidelines to follow. Anything over a certain size (I think its 5,000 population) or any village with a stat block that supports a certain caster level, can get caster level services at that level.

But I guess my point was that doing it the way they've done it engenders more control and a more firm set of guidelines for GM's who are unsure of how to handle things.

[Dragnmoon]

Andrew Christian wrote:

Anything over a certain size (I think its 5,000 population) or any village with a stat block that supports a certain caster level, can get caster level services at that level.

Andrew I think you missed my point, but that is ok..

What I am saying, if you are in a large enough city to get spellcaster service, you are most likely in a large enough city to find a Wizard that will teach you a spell using the price for such on page 219 of the Core book. Not really a difficult rule to implement.

They have decided not to go that route in PFS, I have requested in the past to bring the PFS rules for getting spells closer to the core rules, but they have decided not to as of yet.

I am certain they have their reasons, I am just uncertain what they are.

Would love it if they did bring this part closer to Core rules.

["Kash"]

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but the last time I checked, I, as a wizard, am a card carrying, funny hat wearing, MEMBER of the Pathfinder Society. One of the largest groups in the inner seas region formed around the gathering of knowledge. The Pathfinders have "vast libraries" of arcana that they have access to and count amongst it's membership several powerful wizards.

You're telling me that Aram Zey is going to tell me to "go get bent" if I want to copy down some spells from the society's huge collection? That I'll be forced to wander down to the market and buy a scroll like some common adventurer?

The rules for accessing an NPC wizards spellbook is laid out in the core rulebook, along with pricing, and you're saying we can't use it?

@#$#&!%*

Access to spells can be restricted during the adventure due to the environment, and sources can be resrticted to the additonal resources the player owns. Otherwise players have access to every single spell allowed.

The cost of scribing spells into your book is simple and concise, as well as the premium you are required to pay to access anothers spellbook. The only time you don't have to pay that premium is when you are adventuring with another wizard and you freely exchange spells.

[bdk86]

"Kash" wrote:

You're telling me that Aram Zey is going to tell me to "go get bent" if I want to copy down some spells from the society's huge collection? That I'll be forced to wander down to the market and buy a scroll like some common adventurer?

Next thing you know, the Decimverate is going to expect you to hand over all of the gear and magic items you found in the course of a mission to the nearest quartermaster in exchange for a lump sum of gold.

Oh wait.

[CRobledo]

"Kash" wrote:

The rules for accessing an NPC wizards spellbook is laid out in the core rulebook, along with pricing, and you're saying we can't use it?

AFAIK, there are only 3 ways for a wizard (magus, etc...) to copy new spells into their spellbook in PFS:

1. Leveling up
2. Copy from a fellow adventurer's book (pay cost for scribing)
3. Copy from a scroll (pay cost for scribing, and cost of scroll UNLESS scroll was found during scenario and not consumed)

[nosig]

my guess is this will make it easier to calculate the price of a PC wizards spellbook, should he/she decide to sell it.

But I've been wrong before.

I don't see how this places a control on wizards gaining spells, other than to just reduce the access. It's not like in a home game where I (the GM) can say "no access to spells XX & YY as they will break my game, so NPCs either don't have that spell or wont sell it to you if they do."

This is closer to saying "Magic Armor costs twice as much to enchant" - which doesn't restrict access, just makes it more expensive.

[nosig]

CRobledo wrote:

"Kash" wrote:

The rules for accessing an NPC wizards spellbook is laid out in the core rulebook, along with pricing, and you're saying we can't use it?

AFAIK, there are only 3 ways for a wizard (magus, etc...) to copy new spells into their spellbook in PFS:

1. Leveling up
2. Copy from a fellow adventurer's book (pay cost for scribing)
3. Copy from a scroll (pay cost for scribing, and cost of scroll UNLESS scroll was found during scenario and not consumed)

for #3 above, you need to remember to do it BEFORE Chronicals are given out, before the end of the scenario. If you do it AFTER Chronicals are given out, you have to pay the cost of the scroll.

oh! and for #3 you can add "Copy from an NPCs captured spellbook - like a recovered scroll, or another source that gives access to spells. Scribed before the end of the adventure."

[Jiggy]

CRobledo wrote:

"Kash" wrote:

The rules for accessing an NPC wizards spellbook is laid out in the core rulebook, along with pricing, and you're saying we can't use it?

AFAIK, there are only 3 ways for a wizard (magus, etc...) to copy new spells into their spellbook in PFS:

1. Leveling up
2. Copy from a fellow adventurer's book (pay cost for scribing)
3. Copy from a scroll (pay cost for scribing, and cost of scroll UNLESS scroll was found during scenario and not consumed)

Have a look in the Magic chapter of the Core Rules, where the options you mention are discussed:

Da Rulez wrote:

In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook).

So by Core, you can pay a nominal fee to an NPC spellcaster to access their spellbook long enough to scribe the spell into your own. The price is exact, not requiring the kind of GM adjudication that normally causes something to become disallowed in OP. For example, the fee for accessing a 3rd level spell would be 45gp every time.

There's no change in access, availability, or anything else. All the current FAQ does is (as nosig said) change the price to acquire and scribe a 3rd level spell from 135gp to 465gp. The price increase isn't a side effect, it's THE effect. Nothing but pricing has changed.

So I think it's pretty fair to ask: why?

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

nosig wrote:

my guess is this will make it easier to calculate the price of a PC wizards spellbook, should he/she decide to sell it.

But I've been wrong before.

I don't see how this places a control on wizards gaining spells, other than to just reduce the access. It's not like in a home game where I (the GM) can say "no access to spells XX & YY as they will break my game, so NPCs either don't have that spell or wont sell it to you if they do."

This is closer to saying "Magic Armor costs twice as much to enchant" - which doesn't restrict access, just makes it more expensive.

I get the abstract nature of time between scenarios, and the logic behind just saying Pathfinder wizards can sit together between scenarios and share spells, or just hop over to Aram Zey’s library or whatever.

But let’s look at this from a different angle.

In a home campaign, even if my home campaign were Pathfinder Society based, you can’t just randomly say, “hey, I got 160 gold burning a hole in my pouch, so I’m gonna go down to the Wizard Flea Market and pick up some 2nd level spells.” As a matter of fact, regardless of game system, in my several 12+ year home campaigns (I’m only the GM in one of them), we’ve never had a wizard gain spells outside of specifically paying membership dues to a library, leveling up, researching, or finding a scroll or spellbook as loot. As such, it feels really odd to me that one might think they could abstractly or ambiguously say they found a random wizard to trade spells with.

So the current system is set up to keep wizards honest, so to speak.

[Tweedle-Dum]

"Kash" wrote:

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but the last time I checked, I, as a wizard, am a card carrying, funny hat wearing, MEMBER of the Pathfinder Society. One of the largest groups in the inner seas region formed around the gathering of knowledge. The Pathfinders have "vast libraries" of arcana that they have access to and count amongst it's membership several powerful wizards.

You're telling me that Aram Zey is going to tell me to "go get bent" if I want to copy down some spells from the society's huge collection? That I'll be forced to wander down to the market and buy a scroll like some common adventurer?

The rules for accessing an NPC wizards spellbook is laid out in the core rulebook, along with pricing, and you're saying we can't use it?

@#$#&!%*

Access to spells can be restricted during the adventure due to the environment, and sources can be resrticted to the additonal resources the player owns. Otherwise players have access to every single spell allowed.

The cost of scribing spells into your book is simple and concise, as well as the premium you are required to pay to access anothers spellbook. The only time you don't have to pay that premium is when you are adventuring with another wizard and you freely exchange spells.

Kash, though only a Trapsmith I have an extensive spell book, and while on adventure would be glad to allow you to copy any and all spells from it. I do this in an effort to expand the strength of my fellow Pathfinders (and the likelyhood that I will survive our adventure together).

(ooc: my PC has only 1 level of wizard, but has copied every spell encountered and I've adventured with several 9th level wizards... so he has A LOT of spells in his book - 6 or 7 fifth levels for example. I like to adventure with a wizard in the party - and I figure his book is sort of "Wizard Lure" - it just seems to draw them in).

[CRobledo]

Jiggy wrote:

There's no change in access, availability, or anything else. All the current FAQ does is (as nosig said) change the price to acquire and scribe a 3rd level spell from 135gp to 465gp. The price increase isn't a side effect, it's THE effect. Nothing but pricing has changed.

So I think it's pretty fair to ask: why?

I get what you are saying. What I am saying is due to the FAQ line you posted in the OP, my three choices are (effectively) correct.

As for the why... Well, that's another question. I'd love to hear it too.

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

Lets say I'm an adventuring spellcaster and I come across an enemy spellbook. First I copy all of the spells to my spellbook and remove any that I wouldn't want to be public knowledge (this will vary depending on character motivation and campaign specifics). I'm going to set up a small business were-in I rent out the other spellbook. Either requiring a deposit to cover the cost of the spellbook to be held until book is returned sans the cost of the copied spells or requiring payment up front and taking other steps to prevent the spellbook theft/destruction. A mage could live a confortable (albeit retired) life off that one item. The confort of which would vary depending on the spells in the book and other factors, but still. Even a few gold averaged a day is a lot for common folk.

[LazarX]

"Kash" wrote:

You're telling me that Aram Zey is going to tell me to "go get bent" if I want to copy down some spells from the society's huge collection? That I'll be forced to wander down to the market and buy a scroll like some common adventurer?

Yes, he's like that.

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

CRobledo wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

There's no change in access, availability, or anything else. All the current FAQ does is (as nosig said) change the price to acquire and scribe a 3rd level spell from 135gp to 465gp. The price increase isn't a side effect, it's THE effect. Nothing but pricing has changed.

So I think it's pretty fair to ask: why?

I get what you are saying. What I am saying is due to the FAQ line you posted in the OP, my three choices are (effectively) correct.

As for the why... Well, that's another question. I'd love to hear it too.

Probably because, as I’ve stated a couple times, the campaign staff who originally created this ruling thought it broke realism for a wizard to be able to find any random NPC wizard in down time for exactly whatever spell they wanted at any given time. So to do that, they thought it better/more fair to pay the higher price for the scroll.

I’m sure if I’m wrong, or the ruling gets changed, Mike will let us all know.

[Jiggy]

Andrew Christian wrote:

As such, it feels really odd to me that one might think they could abstractly or ambiguously say they found a random wizard to trade spells with.

Why is that more odd than being able to find someone to cast those same spells? Why is it more odd than being able to buy them as scrolls?

The Core Rulebook said "this is what normally happens" and your response is "I've never done that and it seems pretty odd"?

[nosig]

Andrew Christian wrote:

nosig wrote:

my guess is this will make it easier to calculate the price of a PC wizards spellbook, should he/she decide to sell it.

But I've been wrong before.

I don't see how this places a control on wizards gaining spells, other than to just reduce the access. It's not like in a home game where I (the GM) can say "no access to spells XX & YY as they will break my game, so NPCs either don't have that spell or wont sell it to you if they do."

This is closer to saying "Magic Armor costs twice as much to enchant" - which doesn't restrict access, just makes it more expensive.

I get the abstract nature of time between scenarios, and the logic behind just saying Pathfinder wizards can sit together between scenarios and share spells, or just hop over to Aram Zey’s library or whatever.

But let’s look at this from a different angle.

In a home campaign, even if my home campaign were Pathfinder Society based, you can’t just randomly say, “hey, I got 160 gold burning a hole in my pouch, so I’m gonna go down to the Wizard Flea Market and pick up some 2nd level spells.” As a matter of fact, regardless of game system, in my several 12+ year home campaigns (I’m only the GM in one of them), we’ve never had a wizard gain spells outside of specifically paying membership dues to a library, leveling up, researching, or finding a scroll or spellbook as loot. As such, it feels really odd to me that one might think they could abstractly or ambiguously say they found a random wizard to trade spells with.

So the current system is set up to keep wizards honest, so to speak.

different GMs, different campaigns.

If we start banding about years of home games... I'm been playing and GMing sense 1975... so that makes it, oh, 37 years. Most of that time, as a player, I've played arcane casters.
And yes, sometimes I HAVE said "...so I’m gonna go down to the Wizard Flea Market and pick up some 2nd level spells.” Or I've approached the two wizards guilds in a town and said, "I have recently recovered Karvoki the Hungry's primary traveling spell book. I would entertain the possibility of providing your members with access to it for the two weeks I expect to be in town crafting - I would require access to crafting facilities and a suitable monitary compensation. What are the bids?".

Different games, different GMs. In PFS, this is the current rules. We play by them, unless and until there is some change. The current sistem is fast, easy and very playable in an Organized Play setting. It could be MUCH more restricted.

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

Jiggy wrote:

Andrew Christian wrote:

As such, it feels really odd to me that one might think they could abstractly or ambiguously say they found a random wizard to trade spells with.

Why is that more odd than being able to find someone to cast those same spells? Why is it more odd than being able to buy them as scrolls?

The Core Rulebook said "this is what normally happens" and your response is "I've never done that and it seems pretty odd"?

Maybe 3.0 doesn’t have wording like that. My group still has many rules stuck in the 3.0 (not 3.5) mode, and changing it is hard. I don’t know why we don’t do it that way Jiggy.

I’m just expressing my actual experience with how this has been handled in 3 campaigns that are 16+ level (all 3.0 rules with smatterings of 3.5 material), one that is 9th/10th level (Kingmaker—our first Pathfinder campaign, just finished book 3, took us a year) and one that just started (Skulls & Shackles).

But I’ve been gaming for 27 years from coast to coast with many different types, styles and personalities of gamers, and new spells above and beyond the ones you automatically get everytime you level up, has always been considered loot (scrolls and enemy spellbooks). I’m just expressing that this may be the attitude for why the FAQ rule is the way it is.

[nosig]

I still think it has something to do with fixing the fact that a PC wizard can't sell his spellbook... not sure how, but I'm thinking on it.

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

nosig wrote:

Andrew Christian wrote:

nosig wrote:

my guess is this will make it easier to calculate the price of a PC wizards spellbook, should he/she decide to sell it.

But I've been wrong before.

I don't see how this places a control on wizards gaining spells, other than to just reduce the access. It's not like in a home game where I (the GM) can say "no access to spells XX & YY as they will break my game, so NPCs either don't have that spell or wont sell it to you if they do."

This is closer to saying "Magic Armor costs twice as much to enchant" - which doesn't restrict access, just makes it more expensive.

I get the abstract nature of time between scenarios, and the logic behind just saying Pathfinder wizards can sit together between scenarios and share spells, or just hop over to Aram Zey’s library or whatever.

But let’s look at this from a different angle.

In a home campaign, even if my home campaign were Pathfinder Society based, you can’t just randomly say, “hey, I got 160 gold burning a hole in my pouch, so I’m gonna go down to the Wizard Flea Market and pick up some 2nd level spells.” As a matter of fact, regardless of game system, in my several 12+ year home campaigns (I’m only the GM in one of them), we’ve never had a wizard gain spells outside of specifically paying membership dues to a library, leveling up, researching, or finding a scroll or spellbook as loot. As such, it feels really odd to me that one might think they could abstractly or ambiguously say they found a random wizard to trade spells with.

So the current system is set up to keep wizards honest, so to speak.

different GMs, different campaigns.

If we start banding about years of home games... I'm been playing and GMing sense 1975... so that makes it, oh, 37 years. Most of that time, as a player, I've played arcane casters.
And yes, sometimes I HAVE said "...so I’m gonna go down to the Wizard Flea Market and pick up some 2nd level spells.” Or I've approached the two wizards guilds in a town and...

I'm not making excuses for it. I'm simply trying to show that through my experience, the current system actually makes more sense to me. I'm not saying that others haven't had different experiences.

[Jiggy]

Andrew Christian wrote:

I’m just expressing that this may be the attitude for why the FAQ rule is the way it is.

Could be. If so, I could live with that; I'd just start lobbying to put that change someplace more noticeable.

My REAL concern is that, like you, perhaps Mike Brock was used to spells-as-loot and, if (as you suggest) the copying fee is new to Pathfinder compared to DnD, perhaps he wasn't aware of it and thought he was filling in an un-ruled space, unknowingly changing a rule he didn't know existed (it IS kind of buried in the CRB...)

I just want to make sure it's on purpose. If it's not, let's get it fixed. If it is, let's make it easier to find.

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

Jiggy wrote:

Andrew Christian wrote:

I’m just expressing that this may be the attitude for why the FAQ rule is the way it is.

Could be. If so, I could live with that; I'd just start lobbying to put that change someplace more noticeable.

My REAL concern is that, like you, perhaps Mike Brock was used to spells-as-loot and, if (as you suggest) the copying fee is new to Pathfinder compared to DnD, perhaps he wasn't aware of it and thought he was filling in an un-ruled space, unknowingly changing a rule he didn't know existed (it IS kind of buried in the CRB...)

I just want to make sure it's on purpose. If it's not, let's get it fixed. If it is, let's make it easier to find.

I can't disagree with that.

One thing to note though, is I'm not sure that FAQ answer was Mike Brock's doing. I think that probably hales back to Joshua Frost's days, but I'm sure a longer time PFS player/GM will be able to correct me if I'm wrong on that.

[Dragnmoon]

Jiggy wrote:

My REAL concern is that, like you, perhaps Mike Brock was used to spells-as-loot and, if (as you suggest) the copying fee is new to Pathfinder compared to DnD, perhaps he wasn't aware of it and thought he was filling in an un-ruled space, unknowingly changing a rule he didn't know existed (it IS kind of buried in the CRB...)

I just want to make sure it's on purpose. If it's not, let's get it fixed. If it is, let's make it easier to find.

So when I brought this up in Aug of last year, this is what Mark had to say.

Mark Moreland wrote:

Dragnmoon wrote:

Including on those pages are rules for buying Spells from NPC wizards, can we are cannot we learn spells that way? or do we have to buy "Magic Items" (Scrolls) to learn spells outside of the scenario?

If you don't find a scroll of a given spell during the course of an adventure, you have to buy the scroll to learn it. An NPC isn't just going to give you access to his spells for free, and purchasing a scroll of that spell represents the cost of gaining access to his spellbook.

I never readdressed it, but I am concerned with his statement "An NPC isn't just going to give you access to his spells for free", due to the fact he is not giving you access for free, you are paying him.

[nosig]

An example of different ways of doing Spell Access...
In LG days ("Long Ago, in a Campaign Far, Far Away..."), spellbooks that were gained during the adventure were sold (1/2 value) - and the players had access to "buy" them. My Rogue at that time, started to collect spell books, and then each time I sat at a table players would pull out their wizards, just to get a crack at my books.

I'd love to see something like that in a scenario. An NPC non-wizard, who just happens to have a wizards spell book. Perhaps with spells normally found only in Ultimate Magic (encurage people to buy the book after they add the spell to their Wiz/Alchemist/Magus/Witch).

"Seeing as you are doing a job for Sir Fancy Pants, he's willing to give you access to the family library. Which includes his fathers old spell books.... make a perception check to see what spells you can find."

[Jiggy]

@Dragnmoon: Wow, that's the exact verbiage from the current FAQ.

The more I read, the more I think this is an oversight. The FAQ opens with this sentence:

"Pages 219–220 in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook discuss how to handle a wizard’s spellbook, but Pathfinder Society makes one adjustment to these rules: a wizard does not have to purchase a scroll found during the course of a scenario in order to copy that scroll into her spellbook."

Do you see it?

The "adjustment" to the rules from pages 219-220 of the CRB doesn't change anything from those rules. There's nothing in there saying you would have to buy a scroll to copy a spell. This "one change to the Core rules" isn't a change to the Core rules.

If you keep reading the FAQ as it continues to describe the process, it sounds more like if someone thought they couldn't leave a scenario with a new spell at all, this is telling them they could - but that's clarifying campaign rules, not Core rules.

Eventually, at the end of the FAQ, we have "the Dragnmoon clause" telling us almost as an afterthought that we can't copy from NPCs. It's even pretty clear that it's not the "one adjustment" that the FAQ mentions at the outset.

All in all, it's really looking (to me, at least) like this particular FAQ was written based on incomplete understanding of Core rules on spell access. I could be wrong, but it sure seems that way. I think it merits being re-addressed.

[Eric Clingenpeel]

I just checked and it wasn't in 3.0, but it was added in 3.5 the ability to purchase spells from a wizard at 50 gp per spell level.

[ciretose]

Yet another example of "rules" vs "guidelines"

The rules say you can buy a scroll and learn the spell.

It also has guidelines about getting spells from NPCs for a DM to consider.

Some NPC's may sell spells, some may give them away, some may never sell under any circumstances, this is adjudicated by the GM in the same way a GM adjudicates off book magic items.

But, like those, it provides a guideline to consider for pricing as a baseline for the GM to consider.

Why? Because only the GM knows the personality of the NPC and what they will or won't do.

Now the RAWyers and player entitlement association will charge in and say how cruel a GM I am.

[Steg]

Am I the only one who thinks you're all reading it wrong?

That FAQ entry (here) basically says the following:

Use the rules in the CRB.

The one adjustment to those rules for PFS is that a wizard doesn't have to buy a scroll in order to copy it to the spellbook.

This explains how scrolls differ from other expendable items, if you drink a potion, the effects vanish after the scenario. But if you scribe from a scroll, the spell you learned doesn't.

Everything else in that FAQ entry is under the heading of scrolls found during an adventure. If you don't find the scroll, you can't scribe from it for free. It still appears on the chronicle sheet, but if your character never actually got ahold of it during play, then he can't have used it. Just like he couldn't have drank a potion he never found.

Since paying to borrow a spellbook has nothing to do with scrolls found during an adventure, that FAQ doesn't apply. If it did, then there would be two adjustments to the normal rules, not one.

If the intent is to restrict access to spellbooks, I think it needs another FAQ entry that says borrowing spellbooks isn't part of the regular spellcasting services available in town.

We're based in Absolom, the city at the center of the world, a metropolis where you can find anything or anyone. Except a spellbook?

[LazarX]

nosig wrote:

I don't see how this places a control on wizards gaining spells, other than to just reduce the access.

You just answered yourself right there. Reducing the access is probably the only brake they're looking for.

[Jiggy]

Steg wrote:

Am I the only one who thinks you're all reading it wrong?

That FAQ entry (here) basically says the following:

Use the rules in the CRB.

The one adjustment to those rules for PFS is that a wizard doesn't have to buy a scroll in order to copy it to the spellbook.

This explains how scrolls differ from other expendable items, if you drink a potion, the effects vanish after the scenario. But if you scribe from a scroll, the spell you learned doesn't.

Everything else in that FAQ entry is under the heading of scrolls found during an adventure. If you don't find the scroll, you can't scribe from it for free. It still appears on the chronicle sheet, but if your character never actually got ahold of it during play, then he can't have used it. Just like he couldn't have drank a potion he never found.

Up through this point, I agree 100%.

Quote:

Since paying to borrow a spellbook has nothing to do with scrolls found during an adventure, that FAQ doesn't apply. If it did, then there would be two adjustments to the normal rules, not one.

Exactly! That's what I was saying upthread a bit. This is exactly the issue: the FAQ is actually changing more than it thinks it is. The line near the end explicitly says that the fee to copy a spell is equal to the price of a scroll - this contradicts (and therefore changes) the CRB, yet the FAQ doesn't sound like its author is aware of that fact.

That's pretty much the whole issue. The FAQ's intent seems to be one thing (what you described) yet changes something else in passing.

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

Steg wrote:

Am I the only one who thinks you're all reading it wrong?

That FAQ entry (here) basically says the following:

Use the rules in the CRB.

The one adjustment to those rules for PFS is that a wizard doesn't have to buy a scroll in order to copy it to the spellbook.

This explains how scrolls differ from other expendable items, if you drink a potion, the effects vanish after the scenario. But if you scribe from a scroll, the spell you learned doesn't.

Everything else in that FAQ entry is under the heading of scrolls found during an adventure. If you don't find the scroll, you can't scribe from it for free. It still appears on the chronicle sheet, but if your character never actually got ahold of it during play, then he can't have used it. Just like he couldn't have drank a potion he never found.

Since paying to borrow a spellbook has nothing to do with scrolls found during an adventure, that FAQ doesn't apply. If it did, then there would be two adjustments to the normal rules, not one.

If the intent is to restrict access to spellbooks, I think it needs another FAQ entry that says borrowing spellbooks isn't part of the regular spellcasting services available in town.

We're based in Absolom, the city at the center of the world, a metropolis where you can find anything or anyone. Except a spellbook?

Steg, I agree that the FAQ is written poorly, however it is quite explicit at the end how to deal with buying new spells for your spellbook from NPCs and what that cost is. You can't ignore that sentence just because it would be the "2nd" difference when they only said their is one.

[Steg]

Andrew Christian wrote:

it is quite explicit at the end how to deal with buying new spells for your spellbook from NPCs and what that cost is.

"An NPC isn't just going to give you access to his spells for free, and purchasing a scroll of that spell represents the cost of gaining access to his spellbook."

That line states two facts.

First, you don't get spells from people for free. This is true, you must pay for the privilege.

Second, if you buy a scroll, that represents the cost of gaining access to a spellbook. This is also true, it does represent that.

Neither of those two facts are invalidated by a third fact: You can pay half the cost of scribing to learn from a borrowed spellbook. This is not for free, and it also represents the cost of gaining access.

If the end of that FAQ is taken outside the context of scrolls found during an adventure, then "If you don't find a scroll of a given spell during the course of an adventure, you have to buy the scroll to learn it" means you don't get two free spells when you level up. This would mean that all spells ever learned must come from scrolls, either purchased or found.

But if you keep that FAQ within the context it sets up, then that line instead means "All spells learned from scrolls must be either purchased or found during adventure."

That seems more reasonable. And the only way you arrive at that reasonable conclusion is by following the the very first sentence of that FAQ: Obey the CRB rules with one singular exception.

[WalterGM]

nosig wrote:

CRobledo wrote:

"Kash" wrote:

The rules for accessing an NPC wizards spellbook is laid out in the core rulebook, along with pricing, and you're saying we can't use it?

AFAIK, there are only 3 ways for a wizard (magus, etc...) to copy new spells into their spellbook in PFS:

1. Leveling up
2. Copy from a fellow adventurer's book (pay cost for scribing)
3. Copy from a scroll (pay cost for scribing, and cost of scroll UNLESS scroll was found during scenario and not consumed)

for #3 above, you need to remember to do it BEFORE Chronicals are given out, before the end of the scenario. If you do it AFTER Chronicals are given out, you have to pay the cost of the scroll.

oh! and for #3 you can add "Copy from an NPCs captured spellbook - like a recovered scroll, or another source that gives access to spells. Scribed before the end of the adventure."

How do you do it before chronicles are handed out if it's your first game? (Not being snarky, actually occurred last week)

I just had the PC made the requisite checks before sheets, and then record them on the sheets from that game.

[nosig]

Walter Sheppard wrote:

nosig wrote:

CRobledo wrote:

"Kash" wrote:

The rules for accessing an NPC wizards spellbook is laid out in the core rulebook, along with pricing, and you're saying we can't use it?

AFAIK, there are only 3 ways for a wizard (magus, etc...) to copy new spells into their spellbook in PFS:

1. Leveling up
2. Copy from a fellow adventurer's book (pay cost for scribing)
3. Copy from a scroll (pay cost for scribing, and cost of scroll UNLESS scroll was found during scenario and not consumed)

for #3 above, you need to remember to do it BEFORE Chronicals are given out, before the end of the scenario. If you do it AFTER Chronicals are given out, you have to pay the cost of the scroll.

oh! and for #3 you can add "Copy from an NPCs captured spellbook - like a recovered scroll, or another source that gives access to spells. Scribed before the end of the adventure."

How do you do it before chronicles are handed out if it's your first game? (Not being snarky, actually occurred last week)

I just had the PC made the requisite checks before sheets, and then record them on the sheets from that game.

and you just answered your question. Yes, it is recorded on the Chronicle for the current game (the last chronicle being done already), just as a bribe paid during the game would be, or anything else bought during the adventure. Kind judges will (time permitting) allow a player to scribe any scrolls recovered after the "final fight", but before the game is officially ended - but it is at the whim of the Judge. If he decides there was not time (for what ever reason) then it falls back to the "buy the scroll" methiod.

(I guess that makes you and me "Kind judges" Walter, as I have started asking before I had out the Chronical if there is any scribing being done.)

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

Steg wrote:

Andrew Christian wrote:

it is quite explicit at the end how to deal with buying new spells for your spellbook from NPCs and what that cost is.

"An NPC isn't just going to give you access to his spells for free, and purchasing a scroll of that spell represents the cost of gaining access to his spellbook."

That line states two facts.

First, you don't get spells from people for free. This is true, you must pay for the privilege.

Second, if you buy a scroll, that represents the cost of gaining access to a spellbook. This is also true, it does represent that.

Neither of those two facts are invalidated by a third fact: You can pay half the cost of scribing to learn from a borrowed spellbook. This is not for free, and it also represents the cost of gaining access.

If the end of that FAQ is taken outside the context of scrolls found during an adventure, then "If you don't find a scroll of a given spell during the course of an adventure, you have to buy the scroll to learn it" means you don't get two free spells when you level up. This would mean that all spells ever learned must come from scrolls, either purchased or found.

But if you keep that FAQ within the context it sets up, then that line instead means "All spells learned from scrolls must be either purchased or found during adventure."

That seems more reasonable. And the only way you arrive at that reasonable conclusion is by following the the very first sentence of that FAQ: Obey the CRB rules with one singular exception.

Um... no.

That statement is in there as a campaign specific ruling on how to gain spells from an NPC. There really isn't any other way to read that statement.

[W. Kristoph Nolen]

Maybe I'm misreading this ... But, aren't there two actual costs that make up how much it costs?

The first being the material cost of scribing the spell into a spellbook .... i.e., the material cost of special reagents to make the ink, specially treated paper, etc.

The second being the cost the other caster charges you to borrow his spellbook.

In this case, the PFS rules is that the NPC casters (for sake of organized play convenience) happen to charge the same as it would cost to buy a scroll? Maybe it breaks verisimilitude to have standard pricing, but maybe you can think of it as shopping around, and you're getting the best deal in town, short of finding another caster who'll be nice enough to let you do it for free (another player) .... But you'd still have to pay the material cost of the inks an such?

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

You are correct W. Kristoph Nolen.

The cost everyone is discussing is merely the cost to get an NPC to let you use their spellbook.

[Tweedle-Dum]

W. Kristoph Nolen wrote:

Maybe I'm misreading this ... But, aren't there two actual costs that make up how much it costs?

The first being the material cost of scribing the spell into a spellbook .... i.e., the material cost of special reagents to make the ink, specially treated paper, etc.

The second being the cost the other caster charges you to borrow his spellbook.

In this case, the PFS rules is that the NPC casters (for sake of organized play convenience) happen to charge the same as it would cost to buy a scroll? Maybe it breaks verisimilitude to have standard pricing, but maybe you can think of it as shopping around, and you're getting the best deal in town, short of finding another caster who'll be nice enough to let you do it for free (another player) .... But you'd still have to pay the material cost of the inks an such?

wait, I can charge for access to my spells?!!! what?!!!

(sorry... I know I can't keep the money, but maybe I can drive down the price from other casters...)

[Jiggy]

W. Kristoph Nolen wrote:

Maybe it breaks verisimilitude to have standard pricing

That's not the issue. The issue is there is already standard pricing in the CRB, and this FAQ is (somewhat stealthily) applying a different standard pricing.

To further clarify:
You mention two costs - magical ink and spellbook rental. This is correct. There's a table in the CRB giving the ink cost for each spell level (for instance, 90gp for a 3rd level spell). The CRB also states that the spellbook rental cost (per spell copied) is equal to half that price (so 45gp for a 3rd level spell).

So there's already standard pricing for the entire process.

Then the FAQ comes in and replaces the rental cost (45gp for 3rd level) with the price of a scroll (375gp for 3rd level). The FAQ seems to imply that this is as an alternative to it being free - but it never was.

Hence the suspicion that the author of the FAQ may not have been aware that standard rental pricing already existed, and the desire to see if that's the case.

THAT is what's being discussed here.

[nosig]

realize that the cost of a scroll includes the cost of Material Components.... so, the cost of scribing the spell from an NPC jumped and also adds the price of any materical components too.

magic mouth for example ....

2nd level scroll costs 150GP, Magic Mouth spell scroll cost 160GP

CRB price to copy Magic Mouth - 40gp + 20gp.

what appears to be the new cost - 40gp + 160gp.

o.0

wow, that's a bigger difference than I thought.

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

I've flagged Jiggy's last post as a FAQ candidate.

[Jiggy]

Andrew Christian wrote:

I've flagged Jiggy's last post as a FAQ candidate.

Good thinking; ditto.

[W. Kristoph Nolen]

Aha! Thank you, Andrew and Jiggy for the summaries ... It is much, much more clear now.

Inigo Montoya wrote:

Let me 'splain ... No, is too much. Let me sum up."

Jiggy and nosig, thank you for the specific examples.

You all have made it to follow this rather lengthy thread. ... Oh, and a FAQ flag is a good idea. :)

[LazarX]

Steg wrote:

Am I the only one who thinks you're all reading it wrong?

That FAQ entry (here) basically says the following:

Use the rules in the CRB.

The one adjustment to those rules for PFS is that a wizard doesn't have to buy a scroll in order to copy it to the spellbook.

To clarify, it means that the wizard doesn't have to buy a scroll FOUND in the course of an adventure. In other words if it would wind up in the Chronicle sheet. it would be considered expended as far as using it within the module session though. But still purchasable on the chronicle sheet afterwards.

[nosig]

LazarX wrote:

Steg wrote:

Am I the only one who thinks you're all reading it wrong?

That FAQ entry (here) basically says the following:

Use the rules in the CRB.

The one adjustment to those rules for PFS is that a wizard doesn't have to buy a scroll in order to copy it to the spellbook.

To clarify, it means that the wizard doesn't have to buy a scroll FOUND in the course of an adventure. In other words if it would wind up in the Chronicle sheet. it would be considered expended as far as using it within the module session though. But still purchasable on the chronicle sheet afterwards.

well, actually, it doesn't have to end up on the Chronicle. If you find a scroll during an adventure, you can scribe that scroll (using it) into your book - even if it LATER turns out not to be on the Chronicle. And you have to decide to do this before the Chronicle is handed out.

OH! and I beleave this applies to Wizards only. Alchemist and Witches (and Magi?) are not part ot the wizard exception. So they always have to buy scrolls.

[Dragnmoon]

nosig wrote:

And you have to decide to do this before the Chronicle is handed out.

A More accurate statement would be you would have to scribe it in your spellbook before the session is over, which can be after the chronicle has been handed out.