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I'm getting pretty tired of the loot-sell-buy cycle.
It's not the power of the gear that bothers me, it's the paperwork, and the fact that treasure has become boring. Kind of a chore. The treasure "reveal" has become simply me reading off the treasure results and the players slotting them in a spreadsheet.
I've heard stories about groups that simply award wealth as they level according to the WBL chart. Anyone who does this, could you describe to me the details? Do they get all the treasure in one dump? Do they still have to buy treasure at stores? Do you let them "loot" treasure from enemies that they like by buying it out?
Does anyone use any other alternative systems for treasure? My ideal system would keep the "magic" of finding awesome loot in the course of an adventure, but require much less routine loot-sell-buy behavior.
Advice?
EDIT: Just to clarify, this is not a thread about the xmas tree effect, or the big 6 or anything like that. Once the players have the gear, I'm cool with that, it's the process of treasure liquidation that has be yawning.
I've used the "pick whatever you want, up to WBL" system as a GM, but it was pretty boring in practice.
I guess my advice would be to have fewer (or no) "trash" items, and more rare, powerful, cool items that the players won't want to sell. One of the most memorable (2E) campaigns I ever played in had the PCs end up with a couple of bad-ass magic items each, like a +3 bastard sword that lets you cast Spell Turning and Shout once a day (or whatever). Then you can fill in the gaps with potions and scrolls as need be.
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Get the players to make you a wish list. Even get them to include "Party" items, such as Carpet of Flying or a Bag of Holding. Let them tell you what they want. In the future, sprinkle those items around in your loot tables. Remember to include useful magical tools in addition to equipable gear.
It's tempting to just cut out valuable goods altogether, and just have magic items and GP as your loot. This cuts out a lot of the work, but it makes loot a little less interesting. It's more exciting to find a "large crimson ruby" or a "5-foot tall golden statue" than it is to find "1400 GP". So personally, I try to include magic items, valuables, AND GP in my loot tables if at all possible. Placing items that the players will actually use is the best way to cut down on liquidating sold goods. If the players don't make you a wish list, then it's their own fault if they don't find anything useful in their loot... but tailoring your loot tables to the party's wants is a viable way to cut down on selling/calculation work.
I personally like loot/sell/buy.
in many ways it gives me as the GM greater ability to limit party treasure.
I can give them a 4000g sword but if they dont like it they only get 2000g worth of loot from it, also players tend to get burst increases when they go to town rather than on the fly meaning encounter paths are a bit easier to balance.
Its a little bit of work but I trust my players and allow them to handle it entirely. once I say, "you find a +1 flaming sap" its out of my hands a certain player writes it down and they decide who gets it or puts it in the party loot pile for later sale and divy.
as long as you trust your playes you should not have any problem with loot/sell/buy.
if it bothers you on a more personal level... as in it just makes te game world less real to you... simply give them fewer but more personalized loot drops.
the only difficulty with this is the idea that its equally jarring when the players are faced with an enemy that is swinging a mace at them but has a +1 great axe that they never bothered to use. personally I always alow for enemies with magical loot to make use of it...
Personally, I'm trying to tone down this 'cycle' by creating a system that eliminates most basic stat items and giving their bonuses to players automatically as they level. This leaves more room for actual interesting items that will *always* be useful and won't be replaced by in the future by things that simply have a higher numerical bonus.
Doing this calculation for Cloaks of Resistance and Ring of Protection replacements is simple enough, but creating a system that covers the entire range of Ability Score increasing items from level 1 to 20 has been a bit more difficult...
as long as you trust your playes you should not have any problem with loot/sell/buy.
if it bothers you on a more personal level... as in it just makes te game world less real to you... simply give them fewer but more personalized loot drops.
I definitely trust my players, and the gear doesn't bother me aesthetically... it's just that the process itself ruins my fun during the session. Looting, selling and buying all require time consuming math and it isn't very fun.
I'm definitely looking at more abstract ways to handle it while still retaining the fun of capturing some great loot!
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Like I said, I think one way is to (a) not be afraid to give your players treasure that makes them say HOLY SHIT, THAT'S AWESOME!!! and (b) make it hard to sell stuff even if they wanted to.
E.g. a +2 ghost touch dragonbane sword that gives the wielder immunity to fear is way, way more impressive than a +1 sword and a belt of strength +2 (to me as a player), and yet it's no more powerful 90% of the time. So why not give the cool sword with all the bells and whistles instead of the crappy sword that will become obsolete almost as soon as something better comes along?
Like I said, I think one way is to (a) not be afraid to give your players treasure that makes them say HOLY S%&%, THAT'S AWESOME!!! and (b) make it hard to sell stuff even if they wanted to.
E.g. a +2 ghost touch dragonbane sword that gives the wielder immunity to fear is way, way more impressive than a +1 sword and a belt of strength +2 (to me as a player), and yet it's no more powerful 90% of the time. So why not give the cool sword with all the bells and whistles instead of the crappy sword that will become obsolete almost as soon as something better comes along?
I do things like this as well. The trick I've discovered is that you need to treat the sword *as if* it was just a +2 sword in all other respects. That is, if they want to sell it they get ~4000gp for it. Of course, when you're trying to see where the players are with respect to WBL, make sure to count the sword as only ~8000gp so they're not short changed other magic items. Together, this will make them want to keep the cool item they found rather than just sell it more often than not.
I definitely trust my players, and the gear doesn't bother me aesthetically... it's just that the process itself ruins my fun during the session. Looting, selling and buying all require time consuming math and it isn't very fun.I'm definitely looking at more abstract ways to handle it while still retaining the fun of capturing some great loot!
Best solution my game group has come up with is to use the spread sheet and try to do the division between game sessions. When we search the bodies players may call dibs, but we try to make sure everything works out more or less evenly.
Having an automated program to tell you the total value of everything you have can be useful to help balance characters... but doesn't show everything. Anyone know how to get HeroLab to calculate the value of extra Wizards' spells?
I'd also remind the group that taking a step in a character's evolution, building their story, can be a huge treasure that has no GP value.
Also sometimes adapting treasure on the fly can save headaches. No one in our current party uses a bow, but there are several crossbows. We found a stash of resources... instead of arrows they were bolts.
also we don't count scrolls, potions, or wands against a character's wealth because everyone really wants those that can use it to have the wand of cure light wounds, and the scroll of restoration.
If a monster has lots of cash treasure, I replace it with a cool weapon.
Tribe wealth becomes chief gear.
Obold Many Arrows never threw GPs at his enemies. :)
Every party I was ever in puts the treasure on a piece of notebook paper,
tries to distribute all the magic items, adds up the gp value, and buys a wand of healing first thing.
as long as you trust your playes you should not have any problem with loot/sell/buy.
if it bothers you on a more personal level... as in it just makes te game world less real to you... simply give them fewer but more personalized loot drops.
I definitely trust my players, and the gear doesn't bother me aesthetically... it's just that the process itself ruins my fun during the session. Looting, selling and buying all require time consuming math and it isn't very fun.
I'm definitely looking at more abstract ways to handle it while still retaining the fun of capturing some great loot!
I can understand that.
one a side note, I dont kow your players so I am not sure how this effects your game... but I know that many players factor in loot progression as they factor in things like feats and spells. loot/sell/buy allows them to better accomplish that which is to them FUN.
consider that changing that dynamic may effect fun factor for the players. I personally would leave the math to them and game on.
I'm with Tem. Give out less treasure but make it more interesting.
one a side note, I dont kow your players so I am not sure how this effects your game... but I know that many players factor in loot progression as they factor in things like feats and spells. loot/sell/buy allows them to better accomplish that which is to them FUN.
consider that changing that dynamic may effect fun factor for the players. I personally would leave the math to them and game on.
About half my party does enjoy this aspect, although they're not jazzed about the paperwork involved they love the planning aspect.
The other half literally zones out while they take care of all of this stuff. It's no coincidence that the involved half are also the casters.
A serious part of my frustration is that half my party is bored when this goes on. A bored player is a GM's nightmare!
Thanks for the interest and feedback everybody. I'm forming a plan now, but it is still very helpful to hear from others, especially outside-the-lines solutions.
"A +3 brilliant energy greatsword? Awesome! If we sell this I'll be able to upgrade my big six!"
I guess you don't have a barbarian in your party.
It ignores non magic armor.
"A +3 brilliant energy greatsword? Awesome! If we sell this I'll be able to upgrade my big six!""A +3 greatsword that gives me a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength whenever I'm wielding it? Awesome! Mine."
... Are you even able to do that with weapons? o.o
As for me, I'm working on a "Gear Requisition" plan for an upcoming campaign. Basically, everyone gets a budget of their WBL whenever they level up and they can "order" these magic items whenever they return back to base. They use this WBL money in order to get your "big six" gear that everyone goes for, and the actual loot being given out in the campaign will be more unique stuff that the players will want to keep, rather than just sell later on.
The problem therein is when they can craft everything they want. Sell for half, craft for half. Net loss zero. With enough crafting time (or access to a plane with the right temporal traits), any item can be turned into the specific bonuses they want.
Let's say you hand out that sword with +6 strength. The player might consider that the bonus ability on the sword is priced at +50% and if it's sold off, they can get a similar sword and a belt of +6 strength for less and spend the rest of the money on, say, increasing their bonus on their cloak of resistance.
To mitigate this, in my games the big six bonuses do not count toward the total number of special abilities of items, thus not incurring a +50% cost.
Treasure, magic gold etc becomes problematic for all GMs. The solution i have developed may not work for all GMs but it works well for me: In my world the players are members of the royal court as they move up through their levels they become peers of the realm and later landed nobility. What this does is it creates a sink in which most of their treasure must be sunk. It also provides a different focus for their advancement. early on they want to earn their coat of arms and design their heraldry, later they want to impress the regent enough to be granted a strong-hold and then they try to defend the stronghold and expand their power. All the treasure becomes a means to get what they want not the final reward. AS a Gm it gives me a nice vehicle to reward players without just piling on treasure - I can grant title's "first Sergent of the royal guard" or "imperial wizard". I can also threaten their holdings with giants, dragons etc. Trade and study of magic is regulated as well and a person must earn the right to study and advance in this area but wizards may eventually earn the right to establish schools and teach (in my world spell casters may never own land).
Just to reiterate, this isn't a balance complaint thread! Although the balance advice is helpful I'm sure, I'm chiefly concerned with how boring the process is, and making it either streamlined or more exciting or both.
Simple:
You can make it super simple loot like some people suggest above. Just allowing people to pick their loot as they level instead of finding it is the most simple method. Just establish your loot rules ahead of time.
Level 1: starting gold per book, buy whatever
Level 2: 1000gp WBL, MW items at most
Level 3: 3000gp WBL, max 50% into any one item
Level 4: 6000gp WBL, max 40% into any one item
etc.
The problem with Wealth By Level charts is that they're built around the premise that what's a cool item at level 2 should be vendor trash by level 7. So then you get into the boring sell-buy-sell accounting cycle that Evil Lincoln is complaining about.
I think it's perfectly feasible to have items that are cool at both levels, as long as you're willing to discard the misconception that a +1 Keen Ghost Touch sword is supposed to be 9 times as good (or useful or powerful or whatever) as a +1 sword and the misconception that a "+1 sword" and a "+2 belt of giant strength" and a "+2 cloak of resistance" should be much cheaper than a "+1 sword of giant strength and resistance".
Personally, I'm trying to tone down this 'cycle' by creating a system that eliminates most basic stat items and giving their bonuses to players automatically as they level. This leaves more room for actual interesting items that will *always* be useful and won't be replaced by in the future by things that simply have a higher numerical bonus.
Doing this calculation for Cloaks of Resistance and Ring of Protection replacements is simple enough, but creating a system that covers the entire range of Ability Score increasing items from level 1 to 20 has been a bit more difficult...
Can I see what you've got so far?
In the simple method you quoted, buying/selling is 100% optional in the simplest implementation.
I'm considering a similar system, but making a special exception for "secret" treasure. Finding a secret treasure cache is one of the great joys of adventuring. I think that if you use static WBL + Secret Treasure value from the whole campaign, you actually make it more fun to find secret treasure than it was in the RAW.
Similarly, I think I might give a 5% or 10% "discount" on looted items. That way, if the players choose to loot, it's like a mini-shop where they can peruse the selection: "Oh, he's got a scroll of restoration, we need that! I'll take it, and leave the rest." This is something I consider to be manageable.
So, I think I might award WBL -5% or 10%, and allow a 10% discount on looted items. Additionally, the revealed secret treasure total adds to the total WBL award (after the 10% penalty).
What do you guys think?
Another approach, rather than to subsidize the players looting, is to rely on the 75% availability roll to encourage keeping useful items.
So the players get WBL at every level, but they still need to roll availability when they make a shopping trip to see if they get the desired item. No such roll needs to be made for "buying" the item off a defeated foe.
Can I see what you've got so far?Personally, I'm trying to tone down this 'cycle' by creating a system that eliminates most basic stat items and giving their bonuses to players automatically as they level. This leaves more room for actual interesting items that will *always* be useful and won't be replaced by in the future by things that simply have a higher numerical bonus.
Doing this calculation for Cloaks of Resistance and Ring of Protection replacements is simple enough, but creating a system that covers the entire range of Ability Score increasing items from level 1 to 20 has been a bit more difficult...
Hmm, give me a little bit of time to clean it up so it is a bit more presentable. I'd actually be interested in hearing your opinion on it...
Hmm, give me a little bit of time to clean it up so it is a bit more presentable. I'd actually be interested in hearing your opinion on it...
Absolutely. Make a Googledoc and link it in the OP of a new thread for us, then link back here.
A word on Hogarth's solution: I really do think this is the best course of action for a number of reason, but I'm still not going to do it that way... It's taken me a while to figure out why.
I'm running an adventure path, so a lot of the loot is already done out for me, it's simply the effort of liquidating it all that I find tedious. I actually think the dragon hoards and the like are one of the more charming aspects of the AP format, for me they hearken back to the "magic" sensation I'd get when I was 12 and treasure rolls would come around.
So the sweet spot, for me, would be a system which still has treasure in piles. You still get to glance over your winnings... then you pick out anything that strikes your fancy and the rest gets carted off by hirelings.
But for a homebrew, I'd follow Hogarth's suggestion to the letter, no question.
Because of my quirky requirements though, I'm looking at something much, much closer to Rory's suggestion of straight-up WBL dumps — players can "buy" looted treasure on the scene, but in general it is assumed that everything else is liquidated and sold efficiently.
To offset that efficiency, each "shopping trip" retains the (RAW!) 75% availability roll, which means that sometimes looting two potions of cure light wounds may be better than trying to pick up a cure moderate in town when there's a dearth of the stuff.
Secret treasure is my big issue. If players stop searching for hidden treasure, it just isn't the same game to me. So secret treasure has to count on top of the standard WBL drops. I love this idea. Players who search thoroughly deserve to be ahead of the WBL chart, and this method more or less guarantees that.
This is certainly something I intend to keep working on.
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I've generally done WBL, just to get it out of the way. I don't care for Greyhawking, I tell my petty players, "I assume you pull every gold filling out you can, and sell every single ounce of rusted plate mail, spending hours upon hours haggling and throwing tantrums to get your money."
As long as you have a bag of holding that can hold it all devoted to 'loot', I just ignore it, then say something akin to "You've passed Go." but more likely "Your buyer finally came through with the payment, and ensures there's still a market for orc swords and rusty dungeon trash." or "Your dividends from your investments were received for the quarter."
Just as good would be "The Guild gives you your cut for one of their big heists of late." or "Your latest book brought in a few extra gold."
I'm running an adventure path, so a lot of the loot is already done out for me, it's simply the effort of liquidating it all that I find tedious. I actually think the dragon hoards and the like are one of the more charming aspects of the AP format, for me they hearken back to the "magic" sensation I'd get when I was 12 and treasure rolls would come around.
So the sweet spot, for me, would be a system which still has treasure in piles. You still get to glance over your winnings... then you pick out anything that strikes your fancy and the rest gets carted off by hirelings.
That's basically the situation for most of the games I'm playing in currently: we use the treasure specified in the Adventure Path, pick out what we like and sell the rest and use the proceeds to buy pretty much whatever we want, within reason. As long as someone else is doing the math (and we're not getting short-changed too badly), I'm fine with that; I have no interest in the accounting part other than finding out what my PC's share is.
I agree, it does mean the PCs end up with a few things they wouldn't otherwise have and that's kind of fun. For instance, one of my characters has Boots of Levitation (which I probably wouldn't spend 7500 gp on, but which are possibly worth the 3750 gp value that you'd get for a used pair). On the other hand, we still sell a lot of junk. And occasionally we end up with the situation where a PC claims an item that I think would be better off sold and distributed as gold.
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I'm not very big on magic shops in my games, so I usually let my players know that unless they're building a character capable of crafting a given item, not to build expecting to get it. In the case of AP's, I usually give them a heads up during character creation time about what kind of items might be common throughout the campaign so they can take that into account. Players get more creative in their use of gear when they know they can't just trade it straight across for whatever they want.
I've had a sick idea.
Maybe the red dragon melted the rock over the gold in the lowest point of his lair. If there's a dwarf in the party it's mining time. :)
The trouble with the advice of "just give them cooler stuff" is that it's hard to guess what the players will decide is cool stuff.
I've included treasure which I both intended to be specifically useful in the campaign and which I thought was phenomenally cool and that I'd love to have were I playing a PC, only to see the players turn up their noses and say, "Meh, sell pile."
And other stuff which I purely threw in as random junk they immediately decided was the most awesome thing since sliced bread. It was possibly even a magic bread slicer or something. And insisted on keeping that instead of whatever cool thing I was certain they'd want to have (or I'd even want them to have).
The other thing is players often get attached to their gear irrationally, much as we do to our own stuff in real life. "Why would I buy new shoes when these shoddy dirt covered scraps of leather are so comfortable?" "Why would a trade my +1 shocking rapier for that +3 flaming burst katana when the rapier is my FAVORITE and I stabbed the giant to death with it? And that +3 flaming burst katana has got to be worth tons of gold pieces, we can finally buy Mary that magic bread slicer she always wanted!"
So to me there's not a clear win situation here.
One thing I've thought about is I've got some players who really love item crafting. So maybe including items that are basically components of magic items. They could combine them in different ways to craft items faster than they otherwise would (they still need prereq feats and spells). Or use them to enhance existing gear. I've only just thought about this so I've nothing useful like systems or mechanics or experience, just ideas.
But even then, "Well, if the component doesn't make my sword slice bread better then we'll just sell it," might always come up in the conversation. Human nature is a b!@#+.
So there is some merit to just having found wealth be... wealth. Gold, gems, and jewelry, so you can still describe stuff. And then let them buy want they want, or craft it. But as EL says, that does take away some fun at the same time...
Dunno, will be following this thread to see what others think as well--interesting to see what folks have advised already.
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The other thing is players often get attached to their gear irrationally, much as we do to our own stuff in real life. "Why would I buy new shoes when these shoddy dirt covered scraps of leather are so comfortable?" "Why would a trade my +1 shocking rapier for that +3 flaming burst katana when the rapier is my FAVORITE and I stabbed the giant to death with it? And that +3 flaming burst katana has got to be worth tons of gold pieces, we can finally buy Mary that magic bread slicer she always wanted!"
In my suggested system, that wouldn't happen. You'd never be forced to choose between two magic weapons because you pretty much only get one; your first magic sword is pretty much your last magic sword, so sentimental attachment is a good thing! And you wouldn't be able to sell a magic item for "tons of gold pieces".
YMMV, of course.
That's basically the situation for most of the games I'm playing in currently: we use the treasure specified in the Adventure Path, pick out what we like and sell the rest and use the proceeds to buy pretty much whatever we want, within reason. As long as someone else is doing the math (and we're not getting short-changed too badly), I'm fine with that; I have no interest in the accounting part other than finding out what my PC's share is.
What do you think of this idea then: the players get the abstract gold award commensurate with the CR of the encounter. They can use their gold to "buy" out the loot, otherwise it gets auto-liquidated. When they go to shop in town, that is subject to 75% availability (as per the RAW).
Unless I am somehow mistaken, that replicates the exact process of selling off unwanted loot, but you don't actually need to do the selling math, just the purchases. What's more, it prevents any one player from taking more than their fair share of the loot.
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The other thing is players often get attached to their gear irrationally, much as we do to our own stuff in real life. "Why would I buy new shoes when these shoddy dirt covered scraps of leather are so comfortable?" "Why would a trade my +1 shocking rapier for that +3 flaming burst katana when the rapier is my FAVORITE and I stabbed the giant to death with it? And that +3 flaming burst katana has got to be worth tons of gold pieces, we can finally buy Mary that magic bread slicer she always wanted!"In my suggested system, that wouldn't happen. You'd never be forced to choose between two magic weapons because you pretty much only get one; your first magic sword is pretty much your last magic sword, so sentimental attachment is a good thing! And you wouldn't be able to sell a magic item for "tons of gold pieces".
YMMV, of course.
This is pretty much how I run hogarth - at least from a design perspective.
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I have introduced a point/tier system - so say at 9th level you get 3 points to advance your weapons. So the DM and player cooperatively advance the items to their next numerical value/function. Ex -one of my players has a Dwarven cloak of the North (+1 cloak of resistance) at level 9 he decides to advance the item - so now it's a +2 cloak of resistance with a few minor powers tied to cold and the earth. He has put his point in Item Power: Saves. What that means if he finds another +1 Cloak or Resistance and wears it for a while it will eventually function as a +2 cloak, but not as good as his original Dwarven Cloak - so he keeps the original cloak. Also if some punk low-level guy kills said player all he gets is a generic +1 cloak of resistance (same price) - until he becomes 9th level and decides to put one of his tier points into the item.
As it stands I think I will go with 3 improvements at 9th, 1 at 10th and 11th and 3 more at 12th, and so on.
Item power is tied to a leveled tier system – so the best weapon you can have at 9th (Tier 1) is a +2 whatever with some minor powers, then it bumps up to +3 at 12th (Tier 2), +4 at 15th (Tier 3) and +5 at 18th (Tier 4). You can't go over the tier power limits by dumping all your points into one item.
We have made customized magic items; I have also advanced items thematically in power and ability. The upside - there are less magic items floating around in the game. NPCs gain similar benefits so if you kill a high powered bad guy most (not all) of his stuff is lower-powered, it's just that the owner empowered the items by legacy, use, skill, will, etc.
The pros - Less magic items floating around, less need for higher powered items floating around. Magic seems more magical
The cons - Less magic items floating around. Less mystery and less use for gold (less need to purchase items). Player doesn't cover the basics - he forgoes improving saves or his to-hits, core funtionality, etc in favor of some other cool or flashy side item.
Less magic items floating around as a con: Let me explain this one since I list it as both a pro and a con.
Most of my guys are also serious Post-Apocalyptic genre gamers, they love looting - even garbage. So when playing PF they will take everything not nailed down, even it means giving used or damaged armor away to giving low powered magic items to low-level NPC allies. So I still need to put stuff out there and they will still end up trading or giving it away. I think some players like the mini-trading game within RPGS, even if it doesn't lead to more power - I know one of my players loves to wheel and deal with acquired inventory. They like to loot, even it it's just minor stuff and some variety so I still need to put a few interesting items in rotation.
Less mystery – since these improvements are a cooperative effort there is considerably less mystery as to what the players are going to get next. Theoretically if a player has a +1 Sword and spent a point on Weapon Power any +1 sword he uses as a primary weapon will eventually function as a +2 weapon, though if he finds something else with a different range of powers or abilities he can always swap them out for his old weapon. So there is still potental for variety and change but it does lean towards your first magic sword is going to probably be your last magic sword. I tend to assign minor perk powers the longer the weapon has been used (and has history with the PC) so the older the weapon the more details it has.
Still experimental and I may scrap it but it’s what we are using now (using WBL as a guideline for total cost of empowered gear).
Hmm, give me a little bit of time to clean it up so it is a bit more presentable. I'd actually be interested in hearing your opinion on it...Absolutely. Make a Googledoc and link it in the OP of a new thread for us, then link back here.
Luckily, I already had it in Googledoc format ;) Here's the thread I created for it. It isn't quite in a usable state yet, but maybe it'll give you some ideas.
The other thing is players often get attached to their gear irrationally, much as we do to our own stuff in real life. "Why would I buy new shoes when these shoddy dirt covered scraps of leather are so comfortable?" "Why would a trade my +1 shocking rapier for that +3 flaming burst katana when the rapier is my FAVORITE and I stabbed the giant to death with it? And that +3 flaming burst katana has got to be worth tons of gold pieces, we can finally buy Mary that magic bread slicer she always wanted!"In my suggested system, that wouldn't happen. You'd never be forced to choose between two magic weapons because you pretty much only get one; your first magic sword is pretty much your last magic sword, so sentimental attachment is a good thing! And you wouldn't be able to sell a magic item for "tons of gold pieces".
YMMV, of course.
Replace "magic weapon" with "magic ring" or "magic rod" or "magic shoe" or "magic bread slicer" or "magic Jem doll" then.
The issue is not specifically with weapons, that was just the example I picked.
Actually, in one of my previous campaigns, everyone got a magic weapon that "evolved" with them as they leveled, and they liked that. That didn't mean other gear didn't get traded around. So I've not actually recently seen the issue I cited with a weapon per se, that was hypothetical. (In my actual campaign, I had a player who refused to give up one of his character's rings (and he had good reason), for example. Do you make your players stick with the magic rings they find?)
I guess I could have everyone's entire set of gear improve as they leveled, but that's a hell of a lot of work (it was hard enough just to do the weapons, coming up with the abilities and keeping it balanced). I don't think I'd really want to do
I think though that this conversation is highlighting a core design issue with Pathfinder -- following the treasure guidelines and presumptions of the game as designed seems to leave things to be desired, and GMs are constantly trying to find a way to design around it.
Doh! I just realized I accidently put a link to the Googledoc in my last post. Here's the actual thread for my attempt at replacing items with scaling bonuses!
@DeathQuaker I've been considering giving players automatically upgrading items as well. Well, I wouldn't have ALL of their gear auto upgrade, but having one or two items that do so could be interesting. I just never got around to settling on a 'system' for it.
I think though that this conversation is highlighting a core design issue with Pathfinder -- following the treasure guidelines and presumptions of the game as designed seems to leave things to be desired, and GMs are constantly trying to find a way to design around it.
On the other hand, it took 4 years of gameplay and 14 character levels for me to get fed up with it, so it's not all bad.
Treasure fatigue is exacerbated at high levels, as do some of the flaws with Hit Points. I managed to solve hit points to my own liking with a house rule, and hopefully the suggestions in this thread will solve my treasure fatigue.
In both cases, I'm trying to change as little as possible while addressing the problem, which says something about the charms of the original. I'm building up quite a GM Utility Belt for high level play. Thanks for the help, friends!
What do you think of this idea then: the players get the abstract gold award commensurate with the CR of the encounter. They can use their gold to "buy" out the loot, otherwise it gets auto-liquidated. When they go to shop in town, that is subject to 75% availability (as per the RAW).
Unless I am somehow mistaken, that replicates the exact process of selling off unwanted loot, but you don't actually need to do the selling math, just the purchases. What's more, it prevents any one player from taking more than their fair share of the loot.
Maybe I'm missing something, but if you just give out a GP-equivalent value, I'm not sure how that meets the situation you mentioned before:
You still get to glance over your winnings... then you pick out anything that strikes your fancy and the rest gets carted off by hirelings.
Maybe I'm missing something, but if you just give out a GP-equivalent value, I'm not sure how that meets the situation you mentioned before
Battle ends, and rather than me reading the loot block while a player puts it in a spreadsheet, looks up the values, and eventually sells it — the players pay for whatever look they specifically desire out of their share.
Example: 1st level party kills some goblins. The treasure award is (260gp/4 players =) 65gp each. The players ask "what's the loot?" The goblins have three potions of CLW. Either a) the players are like "nah, sell pile" in which case they all get 65gp. or b) One of the players wants to get take a CLW potion for 50g and only gets 15g or c) one of the players either spends their 65g plus 85g from an earlier encounter to get all three potions, or else goes into debt with one of his colleagues.
I guess the only real difference here is that if an object in the loot is of no interest to the players, nobody needs to look up its value. That's actually cool, I think, because it's looking up the value of the stuff you don't want that I find most annoying!