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If you cast summon monster, it works out as follows:
Round 1: Cast summon monster (a full round cast)
Round 2: Summon appears at the start of your turn and can act. You have all your actions from this round still to go. So, the summon is going immediately before you, even though on your turn.
If you now delay, the initiative should now split, as the spell will end immediately before what your init count was before you delayed. If the summon is kept on your turn (whether this is a RAW matter or the GM rules it is irrelevant), it will still disappear based upon the init count when it was summoned.
I don't buy that the inits can't split. The spell does it's thing. The init consequence of delay or ready still is in effect, and the summon isn't dependent on direction, concentration, communication, or anything else from the summoner at this point.
Edited for additional content.
If it is at the beginning of your turn, then by definition your initiative has already been triggered, so you can't delay, you're already moving.
Howie is correct.
I agree with Howie, the monster's initial initiative is the same as yours after that you can delay or ready to change your initiative.
Can't you just tell your summoned monster to delay until after your turn?
Yes, as long as you have a way to speak to it.
Setzer why would not want to take your turn?
You cannot delay after you summon a creature and it goes. You can only delay if you take no actions whatsoever. If you take any actions, even free ones, the option to delay is no longer available.
I'll stop there, because if I actually went into my full "rules breakout" regarding summons, delaying, and et cetera it would spark a 12 page argument about something that's irrelevant.
So, OP:
Answer #1:
There's no reason to delay. Your summon acts before you do anyway.
Answer #2:
This falls under the "DBAD" rule. GMs have enough to keep track of in a combat without having to sit and break out your summon into a separate tracked initiative. Summoned creatures, unless we're talking about crap like Planar Binding or Gate, are unworthy of their own initiative count.
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Ok, this is a valid point. So, if a character is under an effect that has a negative effect on them each turn, on their turn turn, they can just delay to avoid the negative effect? Or, if they have a negative effect on for which they get a resave on their next turn, they can delay until an ally can apply a buff that helps with resave?
Edit: Immediately prior post ninja'd this.
So, if a character is under an effect that has a negative effect on them each turn, on their turn turn, they can just delay to avoid the negative effect?
Cheesy, but seems rules-valid.
Round 1-
Init 20: Elf attacks Giant Scorpion
Init 10: Cleric casts Bless
Init 5: Giant Scorpion stings Elf, poisoning it. Elf fails save, takes 2 Str damage
Round 2-
Init 20: Elf delays, taking no action
Init 10: Cleric casts Neutralize Poison, succeeding at the CL check
Init 9: Elf un-delays, and didn't have to attempt a 2nd Fort save
* Example 2
Round 1-
Wizard casts Summon Monster I (@CL1)
Round 2-
Init 20: Wizard finishes, Dire Rat appears and acts. Wizard casts Invisibility.
Init 10: Goblins fight with Dire Rat
Round 3-
Init 20: Wizard delays
Init 10: Goblins fight with Dire Rat
Round 4-
Init 20: Wizard delays...
Even if you rule that the rat poofs at the end of the round (Init 0) by delaying, the wizard still got another round of the rat. The rat couldn't act (because wizard was delayed) but it was still in the fight, threatening, taking hits, etc.
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I think it's worth a FAQ:
When a creature is under an effect based on rounds, and that creature Delays, does the effect happen/expire at the beginning of his old initiative count, or does the duration change based on his new initiative?
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Although it's not clear, I always allowed delays to delay the effects of a negative spell or ability, but they still need to take an action when they are last, so the negative effects takes place then.
It could be more clear, but on the other hand, it would complicate things further to separate it, or to make the effect happen at the caster's initiative (which causes other issues similar to this one, except in the other direction).
In all the years I have played it has always been our understanding that you have to declare your desire to delay before your move begins. You can't do ANYTHING before you delay. Not free actions, not immediate actions, not swift actions. Nothing.
If that is not correct I'd like to see a rules reference about delaying initiative.
Here is the rule as written:
By choosing to delay, you take no action and then act normally on whatever initiative count you decide to act. When you delay, you voluntarily reduce your own initiative result for the rest of the combat. When your new, lower initiative count comes up later in the same round, you can act normally. You can specify this new initiative result or just wait until some time later in the round and act then, thus fixing your new initiative count at that point.
I think that is very clear. Once you do ANYTHING, even a free action, you are in initiative and can no longer delay.
Of course you can house rule it as you wish, but that's a house rule.
You can't do ANYTHING before you delay. Not free actions, not immediate actions, not swift actions.
Immediate Action: "An immediate action is very similar to a swift action, but can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn."
Speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn't your turn.
Other than that, you're right.
Once you do ANYTHING, even a free action, you are in initiative and can no longer delay.
You can't delay unless you're in initiative anyway, the whole point of delay is initiative-based.
I think you might be trying to say that you can't take part of your turn, then delay the rest, which is correct. This doesn't make any difference to the examples, though.
You can't do ANYTHING before you delay. Not free actions, not immediate actions, not swift actions.Immediate Action: "An immediate action is very similar to a swift action, but can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn."
Speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn't your turn.
Other than that, you're right.
Once you do ANYTHING, even a free action, you are in initiative and can no longer delay.You can't delay unless you're in initiative anyway, the whole point of delay is initiative-based.
I think you might be trying to say that you can't take part of your turn, then delay the rest, which is correct. This doesn't make any difference to the examples, though.
Grick, one of the most quoted guidelines for rules interpretation is the "specific trumps general" concept. Meaning that if there is a general rule that is overridden by a specific rule, the specific applies.
Generally it is true that you can take an immediate action outside of your turn. Generally it is true that you can speak at any time.
However, in the specific case of delaying your initiative it is clearly and specifically stated that you can take NO ACTION.
Specific trumps general.
You can rule as you like in your own games.. The actual delay rule itself could not be more clear.
To be clear, my point is that choosing to delay does nothing but change your initiative. It allows no other actions and is not part of your turn. It is a special rule that allows your turn to occur this round on a different initiative.
It interrupts initiative. So things that happen on your turn can't happen until your initiative triggers, which you just moved to later in the round. So when you move initiative, you move your summoning as well.
I'm not saying that makes sense, I'm saying that's the way it works as written.
The actual delay rule itself could not be more clear.
It certainly could.
You're reading it to say you can take no actions until you stop delaying.
It's equally valid to read it to say you take no actions as part of your turn until you stop delaying. Meaning "Delay" isn't an action, and doesn't happen within your turn, but is just lowering (or raising) your init count.
"you take no action and then..." doesn't necessarily mean "you cannot take any actions and then..."
Even if you are right, I don't see what it has to do with the discussion at hand.
The actual delay rule itself could not be more clear.It certainly could.
You're reading it to say you can take no actions until you stop delaying.
It's equally valid to read it to say you take no actions as part of your turn until you stop delaying. Meaning "Delay" isn't an action, and doesn't happen within your turn, but is just lowering (or raising) your init count.
"you take no action and then..." doesn't necessarily mean "you cannot take any actions and then..."
Even if you are right, I don't see what it has to do with the discussion at hand.
Go back and read my previous post which cross-posted yours.
Yes, there are two different things going on here. But the basic problem with the OP's request is that he is saying that his summons goes off and THEN he delays.
I'm saying that you can't do that. You have to choose whether to delay or not BEFORE your current initiative triggers, meaning BEFORE your turn, meaning BEFORE the summons goes off. When you change your initiative, you change when the summons goes off.
Yes, it is also a problem for the OP that the summoned animal acts on your turn by rule.
But the whole idea that you can wait until something on YOUR TURN happens to delay initiative is wrong. You can't. Once it's your turn, your initiative has already triggered and can't be delayed.
The Combat Round: "Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on."
So if you summon a rat on init 20, then next round delay to init 1, the rat still vanishes on init 20 after (CL) rounds.
I remember something about afflictions causing recurring saves to happen on the characters turn, rather than the turn when the affliction was gained. I can't seem to find this text, though.
The summon monster spell states:
It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn
Again, specific trumps general. The monster appears ON YOUR TURN. It says so right in the spell description.
I'm not saying it makes sense. As a house rule I'd probably allow this. I'm just saying what the rules say.
Casting Time: "A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell."
also "You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect."
So the order would be, on round 2, just before the beginning of your turn:
1) The spell is complete
2) You make whatever choices you need to make for the spell (which monster, where it goes, etc.)
3) The chosen monster appears where you designate
Now your turn begins.
4) The monster acts immediately
5) You delay
The question for the OP is:
"A summoned creature acts immediately on your turn, does that only refer to the round when it is summoned, or does it always act on your turn?"
But the whole idea that you can wait until something on YOUR TURN happens to delay initiative is wrong. You can't. Once it's your turn, your initiative has already triggered and can't be delayed.
Delay only says you can take no actions, there's nothing to imply you can or must choose to delay before your initiative count beings.
Even with your extreme "no actions while delaying" interpretation, you don't need to do any actions for the creature to act. You can't tell it what to do, but it can still act.
If you're at init 20, you must wait for init 20 to happen. Only then can you choose to take no actions and delay.
Grick, your entire last post completely ignores the rule I posted which clearly states that the summoned monster appears ON YOUR TURN.
Sure, if the monster appeared before your turn, then your interpretation would be correct. Absolutely, if the duration was interpreted by the general rule then the monster would appear immediately before your turn.
Yep, all that is true. But that's not how THE SPELL is written.
It doesn't make sense, it is probably an oversight in the spell description writing, but that's the way it is written.
In my own games I would probably rule that the monster appeared on the original initiative even if the caster delayed their initiative. However you still have the spell rule stating that the monster moves on the caster's turn, but it would appear as you have said.
But that's a specific interpretation that ignores what the actual spell says.
It makes more sense. That's probably how I would do it.
But that's not what the spell says.
That's all.
Grick, your entire last post completely ignores the rule I posted which clearly states that the summoned monster appears ON YOUR TURN.
That depends on how you break up that sentence.
(It appears where you designate) and (acts immediately, on your turn) would follow the standard rules for how one-round casting times work.
Even if that's not the case, it doesn't change anything, because it doesn't take any of your actions for the spell to complete or the monster to appear or for the monster to act.
Spell finishes
Monster appears
Monster acts
You delay
None of those require using any of your actions. Since you did not take any actions, you can still delay.
Your argument hinges on being forced to delay before your turn begins, and there's no rules to support this.
Grick, final word on this.
"monster acts"
"you delay"
Not possible under the rules as written where the monster acts ON YOUR TURN. Your turn does not start until your initiative is active. At at that point you can't delay.
Again, I don't see what is so hard to understand about this. But I frequently find that to be the case on these sorts of debates.
By the rules, as written, this doesn't work.
I would allow it, but that's not RAW.
Your turn does not start until your initiative is active. At at that point you can't delay.
Do you have any rules to support this assumption?
It's fine as a house rule, though I don't really see the benefit of it.
Back to the OP: The reasonable interpretation of "acts immediately, on your turn" is for when it is summoned. Limiting it to your initiative would mean the summoned Astral Deva can't Ready an action to interrupt the spellcasting lich.
Using the unreasonable interpretation means that not only does it act on your turn, it also appears where you designate on your turn, every round. Granting summoned creatures effectively free teleportation.
Thus, summoned creatures can use their own initiative, and you can delay after casting a spell with one round casting time. The summoned creature will vanish based on the initiative count it was summoned on, regardless of what the creature or the casters current initiative is.
Your turn does not start until your initiative is active. At at that point you can't delay.Do you have any rules to support this assumption?
It's fine as a house rule, though I don't really see the benefit of it.
Back to the OP: The reasonable interpretation of "acts immediately, on your turn" is for when it is summoned. Limiting it to your initiative would mean the summoned Astral Deva can't Ready an action to interrupt the spellcasting lich.
Using the unreasonable interpretation means that not only does it act on your turn, it also appears where you designate on your turn, every round. Granting summoned creatures effectively free teleportation.
Thus, summoned creatures can use their own initiative, and you can delay after casting a spell with one round casting time. The summoned creature will vanish based on the initiative count it was summoned on, regardless of what the creature or the casters current initiative is.
I posted those rules, highlighted and bolded the appropriate parts that show how delaying changes your initiative for that turn. It doesn't "reset" it. It changes it. Delay happens before your turn and changes your initiative.
I suppose at this point it needs to just be FAQ'd and get a ruling from the devs on what their intentions were.
I posted those rules, highlighted and bolded the appropriate parts that show how delaying changes your initiative for that turn.
Here's everything you've bolded in this thread:
Post 22: "you take no action"
Post 24: "you can take NO ACTION."
Post 30: "on your turn"
You also used all-caps "ON YOUR TURN" a few times.
None of these have anything to do with being forced to delay before your turn begins.
You can't delay before your turn. You can't 5-foot step before your turn. You can't Ready before your turn. You can't cast Fireball before your turn. The only thing you can do before your turn are things that specifically say so, like immediate actions and speaking.
Delay happens before your turn and changes your initiative.
Delay happens after your turn begins, and may change your initiative.
If you never choose to stop delaying, your initiative count doesn't change. If your turn comes up again before you've chosen to act, then you lose your actions, but can choose to delay again.
There is nothing in the text of Delay (or anywhere you've cited) that says delay happens before your turn.
Delay would have to specifically say that you can do it before your turn in order for you to be able to do it before your turn. (Specific over General, remember?) It doesn't say that. It doesn't even imply that.
You're confusing turn and action. When you 'take no action' that means you can't take a standard action, or a move action, or a swift action, or an immediate action, or a free action, and also delay. By choosing to delay, you can take no actions. That doesn't mean your turn didn't start.
On your turn, if you have taken no actions, you can choose to delay.