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Some of us D&Ders may be introverted, lacking in confidence, awkward, or whatnot...but we've got nothing on the Magic crowd. On a Magic forum where I mostly lurk, a player posted this question (paraphrased):
"My roommate has a new girlfriend, so we all played a game together. Throughout the game, she taunted us; saying "I could make your decks so much better" and "I don't want to dumb down my deck just to play with you guys." And then she won. So how do I beat her deck?"
If this had been posted on a D&D forum, most of us would realize that this is a player problem rather than a game problem, and that simply beating a problem player probably won't solve anything. Some replies would include game advice too, but most of us would suggest talking to this player about her attitude; some of us would ask for clarification on the situation's personal dynamics.
But not on a Magic forum, where it's all Game all the time! In 30 posts, I made the only non-game related suggestion: don't play with bad attitude players! (Also, the roommate-girlfriend relationship sounds like it's just waiting to explode in everyone's face.) Every single other suggestion is deck-build advice; several posters follow up their deck advice with "That'll shut her up!" comments.
Like I said, we D&Ders have got nothing on these Magic folks when it comes to interpersonal blindness. So the next time you roll your eyes at a forum discussion or suggestion regarding social relationships, remember...at least we talk about this stuff!
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I don't know much about the magic crowd, though I do play occasionally I'm not "in crowd." As a rule I do prefer to game with functional adults who do things besides just game.
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What's wrong with a chick who beats a bunch of dorky guys at their own game and isn't afraid to sass them about it? I don't see that as a problem player at all.
Then again, I don't play "Magic," so maybe my view is somewhat skewed.
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I'd've said "I bet you could make my deck bigger" and hit on her. Then again, I'm not a M:tG nerd.
LOLZ MTG NERDRAGE
EDIT: NSFW
M:tG is a competitive game, unlike RPGs. Talking smack before and after a game is acceptable and, in many groups, expected.
I understand where you're coming from, TS, but remember the context :)
I'm sure that the game's competitive nature plays a part in social trends and awareness.
That said, the title of the thread is 'Ugh,' and an emoticon suggests that the OP is at least irritated with the girlfriend's behavior. It's possible that everyone is cool, but I've never heard the words "dumbed down" received well. Nor the unsolicited claim that "I can make your deck better." I'm no stranger to talking smack, and I'm sure the girlfriend herself thinks that's all she's doing. But to me, this sounds like going too far.
If I'm wrong, I'm still amazed that nobody else in the discussion seems to recognize a [potential] player problem. If it were a D&D discussion, at least a few replies would be "What a *itch! No gaming is better than bad gaming."
I'd've said "I bet you could make my deck bigger" and hit on her. Then again, I'm not a M:tG nerd.
That'd be pretty hilarious, if the OP weren't a girl herself. Maybe "I bet you could make my decks bigger" would be more [in]appropriate? ;)
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a chick who beats a bunch of dorky guys at their own game
This feels kind of skewed and double-standardy to me. For all you know, the girlfriend has been playing Magic longer than the rest of the group. I don't mean to be confrontational (I actually don't, but I realize this might come off as such) but would you say the same if a guy gave some girls grief about being a better cook? You could. "What's wrong with a dude beating a bunch of chicks at their own game and sassing them about it?"
KC has a good point.
... but would you say the same if a guy gave some girls grief about being a better cook? You could. "What's wrong with a dude beating a bunch of chicks at their own game and sassing them about it?"
.
Really?
:: looks at thread title again.
oh, never mind...
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Hey, is you calling me not-social? Don't make me kill you and use your head as an offering to a gurl so she will be my gurlfrend.
Magic, being a game that is actually regularly played in a competitive fashion and is designed for competition regardless of how "civil" people might play it at home, is a different beast than an RPG.
That being the case, this chick is not actually exhibiting a bad player behavior - just a competitive attitude about a competitive game.
...though I have run into a fair number of players of Magic that CAN NOT manage to tell whether they are in a game with people who prefer to just kick back an enjoy, or a group that is tweaking and testing their decks for the next competition... and that's just bad.
Also, I must stand and object to the idea that there is a higher percentage of socially awkward people in the RPG playing hobby than there are in any other hobby.
WE are not socially awkward, even if you or some large number of people you know personally might be - WE are just people.
Isn't not being able to tell what other people are feeling and understand them part of being socially awkward. I also disagree on in any other hobby. If someone is not socially awkward and creates their own hobby no one else does and does not tell anyone about it then 100 percent of the people in that hobby are not socially awkward.
I've never played Magic, but at a Gencon a few years back I watched this perky little teenage girl whup EVERY challenger's butt playing Yu-Gi-Oh. She was killing them like she was on an assembly line. She eventually drew a huge crowd and people began cheering every time she won.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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What an interesting find! A thread made specifically for one group of people to criticize another group of people, while simultaneously claiming to be the more interpersonally competent of the two.
Fascinating, no?
What an interesting find! A thread made specifically for one group of people to criticize another group of people, while simultaneously claiming to be the more interpersonally competent of the two.
Fascinating, no?
Irony.
would you say the same if a guy gave some girls grief about being a better cook?
I've actually done that, so, yeah, I would! The thing is, there's a difference between good-natured sassing of people you're basically friends with (I assume that, like D&D, you wouldn't play this Magic game with people you actively disliked), vs. doing it to be a dick. From the OP's quotes, I read it as the former.
There may be regional differences here, too. I'm a Yankee. Where I'm from, the amount you trash-talked with someone was directly proportional to how good a friend that person was. So if a stranger said something I didn't agree with, I might keep quiet, but if my best buddy said the same thing, I might reply with "What are you, high on something?" It's been a great effort for my wife (a Southern belle) and I to adjust to each other's expectations -- when I met her, she insisted that everyone always talk in a ridiculously polite, roundabout manner, so that it took at minimum 20-30 minutes just to ask what she wanted for dinner, and even then she'd only tell me what she thought I wanted, never ever what she actually wanted -- because the entire purpose of conversation was not to exchange information, but to avoid potentially offending people.
Fair enough. I was working with the assumption that the problem player was indeed a problem player, but I see that there are alternate interpretations.
What's wrong with a chick who beats a bunch of dorky guys at their own game and isn't afraid to sass them about it? I don't see that as a problem player at all.
Then again, I don't play "Magic," so maybe my view is somewhat skewed.
Most of my gaming group has recently got back into playing Magic, and got a couple of our wives into it as well. My wife just has a few decks built out of my cards, and wins at least half the games she plays. So I get the pleasure of not only losing, but losing to my own cards, in decks I never thought to build myself. It's quite humbling.
But the trash talk that all of us throw at each other in play, would make that poor kid in the OP's example cry. It's all good, as we're all long time friends, but it gets pretty rough... In a good way :)
You can do the same while playing UNO. And more fun imho.
The difference is Pathfinder is a cooperative game with no "winners". Magic is a competitive game with clear cut winners. When players give advice, that's their mind frame.
I'm not even sure the problem is with the girlfriend, it depends on how she says it. Trash talking (between friends) is a part of Magic and no one takes it seriously. Maybe she'd just stating a fact! Maybe she has no weak decks. Maybe she's just such a strong player and they suck so bad, it's not even fun for her. I can completely understand that (but what I don't understand is why she's dating a moron).
I'd still say the Magic crowd has less interpersonal problem and less drama than typical RPGers. I've never had any interpersonal problems with people playing Magic. That's not true for RPGs. As RPGers we're ready and able to solve interpersonal problems, because they come up all the time.
Well, if we're going to vent about Magic players... (warning, DQ is just going to threadjack now)
Okay, let me preface this by saying a lot of my friends play Magic and have for a long time. And they are lovely people, and I don't think the game itself does anything horrible to people (apart from being addictive ;) ).
But the Magic players who come to what had been my favorite FLGS from about 1995 to about a year ago... have pretty much driven me out of there (although they are not the only reason in fairness). I go there to pick up a few subscriptions that I just don't have the guts to cancel and subscribe to elsewhere.
They are there ALL the time, and spread themselves over the limited game space so no one else can play there -- I mean, there are 16 chairs, and there will be 4 players, and they have a way of throwing their stuff all over the place so you have no chance of squeezing in to sit down, let alone bring in your own group to play a board game or something, which you're supposed to be able to do. And if you TRY to squeeze in there, they're really huffy, like you're invading their home, when it's a public space. I don't mean when they're having tournaments and the space is reserved for them, I mean just when the tables are open and anyone can theoretically sit there.
And if there IS a tournament, god forbid you try to buy something from the store while they're signing up, no matter how long you stood in line.
And then... oh my god, I'm pretty sure this is specific to a couple people, but the smell...
Okay, let's paint a full picture here: this comic/game store shares its space with a Thai restaurant. Thai food. High quality Thai food, in fact. Full of garlic and chilis and cilantro and basil and crazy amazing other scents.
And when there's a bunch of Magic players there... all you can smell... I won't describe the specific scent... are the Magic players. When the game space is right near the entrance to the kitchen. I mean, I've been to game stores much of my life, and this is beyond typical gamer funk. And it's only when the Magic guys are there, not when there's board games or RPGs going on.
Obviously, there is a elephant in the room that if the manager didn't let this stuff go on, it wouldn't. But I also do wonder at the culture of the Magic players and what allows for this kind of stuff. It's not like Magic players are new to the store, but it used to not be like this. It's been worse since the store switched locations, and I just wish I understood what happened with those folks--when did THEY become the stereotypical basement dwellers with no social graces?
There, done now. Back to your thread. (Also, yeah, I've seen Magic players--who are also perfectly lovely cooperative RPG players--totally trash talk each other. Hard to know what really happened there without more context.)
There may be regional differences here, too. I'm a Yankee. Where I'm from, the amount you trash-talked with someone was directly proportional to how good a friend that person was. So if a stranger said something I didn't agree with, I might keep quiet, but if my best buddy said the same thing, I might reply with "What are you, high on something?" It's been a great effort for my wife (a Southern belle) and I to adjust to each other's expectations -- when I met her, she insisted that everyone always talk in a ridiculously polite, roundabout manner, so that it took at minimum 20-30 minutes just to ask what she wanted for dinner, and even then she'd only tell me what she thought I wanted, never ever what she actually wanted -- because the entire purpose of conversation was not to exchange information, but to avoid potentially offending people.
I have newfound respect for you, Kirth. I don't have the patience to massage information out of overly polite people, so inevitably they're disappointed when I take them at their word. I couldn't live with someone like that...or more accurately, they wouldn't live with me. ;)
Anyway, the OP responded to my suggestion to have a civil chat about manners with "Well that's what I'd normally do, but everyone in the house is ticked at the new girl. So I'm here on their behalf to figure out how to beat her." Which sounds like a recipe for disaster no matter who wins, but who knows...
...horror...
Sometimes I lament that I've never really had a FLGS...but then I hear horror stories like this, and I think "Maybe I'm better off with Amazon after all."
Anyway, my best friend of all time players Magic -- that is to say, occasionally he plays when we manage to find the time -- and he's the most likable guy I know. So it's certainly not a universal thing, and hey maybe Jason's right that D&Ders talk about touchy-feely stuff more because we're the generally maladjusted ones. But man, it doesn't look that way from where I'm sitting.
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I don't trash talk anyone, even my closest friends. If it happened in my presence, I'd start feeling unwelcome. For that reason, I have little tolerance for people that come into a group with no wish to understand the group's social dynamic and start acting like an ass.
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I don't trash talk anyone, even my closest friends. If it happened in my presence, I'd start feeling unwelcome. For that reason, I have little tolerance for people that come into a group with no wish to understand the group's social dynamic and start acting like an ass.
I would only trash talk like as ass with my very closest of friends; Coming into someone else's house and introducing yourself like a jackass is a different thing IMO.
And then... oh my god, I'm pretty sure this is specific to a couple people, but the smell...
.
Yes. From years of observation, for me magic players are defined by two
things: their smell, and their cheeto fingers (fat & stubby).
Is this what Ben Franklin had in mind with his quote "Birds of a feather
flock together."
Anyways, I'm glad all these MotG people have found each other, now if we
can just get them their own room.
.
(notice I didn't say a room with a lock.)
I hate WotC, and have been boycotting them ever since they cancelled the mags.
The amount of gamer elitism and hypocrisy in this thread is a little unsettling. Given the stereotypes of rpg's players over the years, you could just as easily swap the terms "Magic player" and "rpg player." Especially the references to "cheeto fingers."
Hooray for negative over-generalizations. What's next? Girls have cooties?
The amount of gamer elitism and hypocrisy in this thread is a little unsettling. Given the stereotypes of rpg's players over the years, you could just as easily swap the terms "Magic player" and "rpg player." Especially the references to "cheeto fingers."
Hooray for negative over-generalizations. What's next? Girls have cooties?
1) I don't think you're reading the whole thing. DQ prefaced and post-faced (??) his statements quite well.
2) I have long piano player fingers. ;-)
The amount of gamer elitism and hypocrisy in this thread is a little unsettling. Given the stereotypes of rpg's players over the years, you could just as easily swap the terms "Magic player" and "rpg player." Especially the references to "cheeto fingers."
Hooray for negative over-generalizations. What's next? Girls have cooties?
1) I don't think you're reading the whole thing. DQ prefaced and post-faced (??) his statements quite well.
2) I have long piano player fingers. ;-)
I don't think you're reading what you don't think that I think I'm reading, or not reading. Something like that. But, you know, the other thing. Cheese for everyone!
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2) I have long piano player fingers. ;-)
Strangers tell me this when they meet me (it's that, or 'Oh god, you have spiders for hands!'). Sadly, the tendons in a couple of my fingers are impaired. I used to play. No more. :(
I can still freak people out by wiggling my fingers.
Reading the first post I thought the girl was making sexual innuendos.
The reality of the situation was a big letdown for me.
lame
1) I don't think you're reading the whole thing. DQ prefaced and post-faced (??) his statements quite well.
For the record, her.
thenobledrake: The store used to have a posted policy that you had to have showered before coming to the store. When the store moved, I don't know what happened to that. As it is, the folks in question causing the offense are people I do not know at all and thus I really don't feel it would be my place to say anything--they might listen to friends or store staff but I doubt they would take a stranger's commentary the same way. Why the staff haven't said or done anything (maybe they have, I stopped hanging out at the store awhile ago) I don't know, or why the adjacent restaurant staff have not complained I don't know either.
...horror...Sometimes I lament that I've never really had a FLGS...but then I hear horror stories like this, and I think "Maybe I'm better off with Amazon after all."I am firmly of the opinion that the only reason why that certain subset of gamer (whether it be a table-top guy, a magic guy, or a video-game guy) that has the stereotypical stink and/or behavior that these horror stories rely on to exist boils down to one thing:
Politeness.
You're right, over-politeness is a problem. Unfortunately it takes mental energy to approach a stranger and tell them anything negative. For example I'm all for polite suggestions, but the sad truth is that too often I chicken out when it comes time to actually make one to a stranger. So I get where DQ is coming from.
thenobledrake: The store used to have a posted policy that you had to have showered before coming to the store. When the store moved, I don't know what happened to that. As it is, the folks in question causing the offense are people I do not know at all and thus I really don't feel it would be my place to say anything--they might listen to friends or store staff but I doubt they would take a stranger's commentary the same way. Why the staff haven't said or done anything (maybe they have, I stopped hanging out at the store awhile ago) I don't know, or why the adjacent restaurant staff have not complained I don't know either.
Have you asked them what happened to the sign? I bet if you and your whole group were to stop by once, and explain to an owner or manager that you stopped shopping there because of the stink and insensitivity, the store would confront the problem.
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It's been a great effort for my wife (a Southern belle) and I to adjust to each other's expectations -- when I met her, she insisted that everyone always talk in a ridiculously polite, roundabout manner, so that it took at minimum 20-30 minutes just to ask what she wanted for dinner, and even then she'd only tell me what she thought I wanted, never ever what she actually wanted -- because the entire purpose of conversation was not to exchange information, but to avoid potentially offending people.
As someone with Asperger's, where we can't read vocal tone, body languge, social cues, we take what is said literally and HATE small talk, we like to get right to the point and move on to the next thing, that type of talk would drive me up a wall and if someone kept talking to me like that even after I asked them to be more direct,i'd want nothing to do with them.
that type of talk would drive me up a wall and if someone kept talking to me like that even after I asked them to be more direct, i'd want nothing to do with them.
Marriage is a partnership, not a one-way street. We met in the middle -- I try to sugar-coat things for her; she's more direct with me, and sometimes even tells me what she's actually thinking. I don't lie to her -- and she can't lie to me, because I can tell when she's trying. So it all works out pretty well.
As someone with Asperger's, where we can't read vocal tone, body languge, social cues, we take what is said literally and HATE small talk, we like to get right to the point and move on to the next thing
Not unlike a typical New Yorker or German! I'm most comfortable with that approach as well. However, living in different places has taught me that most people won't adjust to suit my taste, so I've had to make a crash course out of reading faces and body language. It takes a lot of practice, but ultimately you can get better at it, if you really work at it. Put the "facts" of what they're saying on hold and instead just look at how they stand, and memorize how they scrunch their faces up or whatever. Then, later on when you have the time and information to make a comparison, compare (a) what they said, (b) what they did with their face, and (c) what they actually do. Rinse, repeat -- pretty much every time you're in a conversation. It's a pain in the neck, and it takes a lot of time and effort that you might think could be much better spent on other things, but it can be done. I'll never be as socially adept as someone "normal," but I also mostly can't be lied to, so there's a payoff at the end. Check out the show Lie to Me if you get a chance -- a lot of the premise is total nonsense, but the fact that you can read people's expressions, and that you can make a study out of doing so, to improve at it -- is not. And it's a fun show anyway!
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Kirth, I understand what you are saying, and I meant no offense. just trying to let people know how people with AS are. It's ALOT harder for people like us. I have gotten better at making small talk, eye contact, ect..
But, no matter how much I try I can't pick up on what the other person is trying to say, unless they tell me exactly what they mean. I am always second guessing people. are they making small talk just to make small talk, or do they want to get to know me more? Is she flirting with me or just being friendly? Are they smiling because they are making a joke I can't get? Do they mean what they just said, or is how they said it, how they stood when they said it mean the opposite of what was said?
So when I am talking to people for the first couple of times, getting to know them, that's what my mind is doing. Most of the time I end up saying or doing something to put them off. I have tried to analyze after, but I can't read the facial expressions. Plus as I see it, to me different people have used some of the same expressions, body language, and meant the opposite of the other.
It is like people without AS are part of a secret club. They know all the little code words and signs, how to look so they know what they mean. But people with AS can't get in because they can't crack the code.
Sorry for hijack, i'll shut up now.
Irony.
You're on watch.
Kirth, I understand what you are saying, and I meant no offense. just trying to let people know how people with AS are. It's a LOT harder for people like us. It is like people without AS are part of a secret club. They know all the little code words and signs, how to look so they know what they mean. But people with AS can't get in because they can't crack the code.
No offense at all -- believe me, CCR, I can personally sympathize with what you're talking about here. I'm not in any way trying to minimize what you have to go through; I was just sharing what helped me. Take it for whatever it's worth.
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In my experience, the hardcore Magic players are aged 20+ and not necessarily introverts.
The days of socially inept nerds being the only sort of gamers are long past, no matter what network television would have you believe.
Unfortunately it takes mental energy to approach a stranger and tell them anything negative.Not that I have precision instruments to back this up with but, it cannot possibly take as much mental energy to point out to a stranger that something they are doing is impinging upon others' enjoyment as a person will spend complaining (whether out loud to friends or as an internal monologue) about the very thing they could say something about.
Energy was the wrong word to use; I should have said that telling a stranger something negative creates mental stress that some of us find hard to conquer in the moment.
I know I probably sound like I am over-board on this, and I probably am... I just have this belief that a person should be refused the right to complain or comment on anything they aren't willing to make an effort to change.
No, you're not going overboard on this. Many of us know perfectly well that keeping silent in the face of rudeness doesn't accomplish anything; but that doesn't change the fact that speaking up is often difficult.
And for the record, I too hate hearing people complain about trivial problems that they might solve with a tactful word here and there. Especially when it happens in a restaurant setting, and they end our complaint-ridden meal by stiffing the well-intentioned waiter on the tip. If you don't tell her what she did to offend your delicate taste, leaving her a 5% tip is just you being cheap, jackass!