|
There's a certain charm to One Session, One Floor, One (IC) Day.
Anyway, while reading this topic I kept thinking about a party, cautiously exploring their 15mins worth of dungeon for the day, when they move into a room. In it is a guy, sitting in a corner, shaking and gibbering;
"Can't sleep, clowns will eat me. Can't sleep, clowns will eat me. Can't sleep, clowns will eat me. Can't sleep, clowns will eat me. Can't sleep, clowns will eat me. Can't sleep, clowns will eat me. Can't sleep, clowns will eat me. Can't sleep, clowns will eat me..."
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
Well, I don't exactly rail against it, but if I might defend the key methods of Reactive NPCs and Timers... there should be no "standard" adventuring day. I mean, those words are just silly when put together in that order, "standard adventure". You need a baseline frequency to assign challenges fairly; that number is around four, as mentioned above. Once established, deviate from that standard early and often. Twist every knob, pull every lever, flip every switch.
15mAD advice is for GMs who are having a problem with PCs taking every encounter at full strength. Now, I believe that the PCs should have periods where they do exactly this — but variety is the spice.
Sometimes they can rest whenever. Sometimes they get attacked when they rest. Sometimes they can't rest at all. Sometimes the players curse their rotten fate for not being able to rest. All of these things, some of the time.
The 15 Minute Day problem is one where the GM doesn't change it up, and the players start to think in terms of static rest plans. "We'll just teleport back, rest, and start up here tomorrow!" Is there anything wrong with that statement? NO! It's completely reasonable if you have a tool like teleport at your disposal....
This is more or less why I suggest making a living dungeon. Let the players decide how they are going to proceed, you don't 'punish' them for one behavior, you make the game world around them respond in a logical way. Give them an understanding that their actions in the game world have consequences and let them make choices based on those consequences.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So with all of the ranting against the 15-minute adventuring day, just how long should the standard adventuring day be? The standard advice was 4 APL equivalent encounters, right?but, sadly, implied in PFRPG.
Nice cutting of the following sentence: More if they're weaker, less if they're stronger.
I suppose I could have emphasized the "use more weak encounters" part, but that wasn't really my focus.I didn't really see anything in the PRD you linked about number of encounters or even how much in the way of resources an APL equivalent encounter should use. Just about how to build an encounter to a given APL.
The relevant section from 3.5, either the part interpreted to mean 4 APL encounters or the following clarification, doesn't seem to exist in the PRD.
Um, I wasn't trying to argue with you. I was just answering your question.
And, the point from 3.5, re-iterated by the Alexandrian, is not actually 'More if they're weaker, less if they're stronger.' It isn't that at all.
The point is: give a really broad variety of fights, with most of them 1 or 2 below CR.
Also, I did use the word implied, maybe I should have spelt out the implications I saw: it mainly comes from the encounter table (which lists APL-1 as 'easy' and APL as 'average'). The text also describes the process of working out if an encounter is the same level as the party, with no coda about that being normal or not.
|
|
I would go with a broad encounter range, from CR-5 to CR+5 but with the majority of encounters below CR, for all of the reasons linked to earlier.
Make them feel like idiots for resting after smashing through 4 groups of weaklings, make them re-assess the situation and decide, "Let's just get on with it!"
And if your party still has 60% of resources when they face the BBEG at the end of the dungeon? Awesome! You get to make one super-badass BBEG.
So your response to my actual question is: You shouldn't let them rest in dungeons. Dungeons should be designed to be handled in one "day", without resting.
However many encounters that actually is. Maybe a lot of weak ones with a couple of stronger, maybe just a few really strong ones. Doesn't matter.Of course, this can lead the players to assume that they'll be able to handle whatever they find. If the previous encounters have weakened them, then there can't be too much left in the dungeon because it was obviously designed to be handled without a break. Sort of the opposite problem to the 15-minute day.
No, you can read that into my answer, if you're starting from some kind of position, but I actually think that the BBEG can be the first encounter of the day, or the 12th! I think that if you have a lot of variety you can get away from any kind of system and keep your PCs guesssing.
As The Alexandrian said in another article: Players who set the tempo remove peril and excitement and allow mages/psions/whatever to nova without any concern about 'using up' powers.
Variety of encounters and variety of environments allows the GM to set the tempo: which usually leads to a more satisfying story as he knows more than the players.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The way I do it (and it has worked for me for years) is that most all things happen organically.
That is, the timers in place are not really put in by me and told to the players - the players on their own figure out what the issues are - since those timers/problems all arise out situations in the continuing campaign.
Since they know things are probably going to be a hard they (almost) always pace themselves as such - and they also take into account random factors (not so much encounters, but unaccounted enemies sneaking up on them) so they load up with as much firepower as possible, while utilizing the least amount possible in each encounter.
This may anger some people here, or make them think I'm nuts but here it is: I don't design dungeons based on character considerations beyond level range considerations (and sometimes I even redline that). Some bases/foes/scenarios are clearly out of the groups range. They acknowledge the fact and work around it.
I design the dungeon/scenario/base, etc, based upon the story needs with a level range. I don't make custom encounters for party members to shine, or work with their strengths; the encounters are designed within the logical parameters of the story. Often times the shining part happens because the players rise to the occasion, not because it's spelled out for them. The players have to figure an in (to a base) when I often do not leave an obvious one out there (besides suicidal frontal assault), so it can be frustrating at times but they like the realism and the fact that the bad guys are not obviously designed for them to kill. Sometimes my players just have to delay things until they get more intel or power, they take it all in stride and don't let it bruise their egos.
I don't expect them to run my dungeons in one session but I also do not provide fixed rest areas. The players have to make their own rest areas. In other words – tough s%#!, being an adventurer can suck.
I find that running the world/adventure with its own momentum eliminates the concept of the 15 minute workday. The PCs have to adapt to the scenario and even if they have room to breathe they still play it on the safe side because adventuring and making powerful enemies isn't a safe life choice. The beauty of running everything organically is that the game moves on its own – with or without the player's involvement – which again is nice because the players start trying to predict what the bad guys next move is going to be based upon what they already know, even if the PCs are tied up with something else and can't directly intervene.
In the case of one-off's I do use timers/mission objectives to move things along unless the intent of the one-off is just a nice slow dungeon crawl.
I think the 15 workday is a DM created problem, either by how they setup the adventure or how they run it after things get into motion. I would say that only rarely and very rarely is this designed into a written scenario unless it's a dead-dungeon crawl. Some spells and items can be problematic and promote the 15 minute workday but the biggest issue isn't if the PCs get to rest, the biggest issue is what is going on in the world while they are resting?
Y'know, a thought occurred to me while reading this thread: Does APL*/-5 take into account first level? I can't think of a more boring adventure than one where a turtle is the encounter and 4 1st level characters vs a CR 6 Ceustodemon, even on the FIRST encounter would be a TPK and you all know it: round one breath weapon 6d6 fire damage cone = 21 damage or half...if you make a 17 on your Ref save!)
I run a ton of low level games (see my previous posts to this thread; I can't seem to get past 5th level). So where's the sweet spot for 1-3 level? Give me a number.
One of the things Aux. says over and over is keep it organic. I say do that, for every level, in every encounter. THAT'S why GM'ing is hard; not because of all the planning and math and accounting and rules and other sh...stuff. Its because your SUPER/AWESOME/MEGADUNGEON has to have an entry point and that first encounter could wipe out the entire rest of your plan.
Case in point: I ran a homebrew-modified Keep on the Borderlands to start one campaign. First encounter the party comes into the valley and sneaks up on the kobold entrance at ground level but they rolled very poorly and the draconics know they're coming. 2 kobolds and one trained giant rat; a CR 1/2 encounter, bumped up to a 1 because of the terrain (choke point favoring the kobolds).
I figured a cleric with fantastic armor (rolled well in starting money), a ranger, a fighter, a rogue and a sorcer - this would be over in moments. Are you ready? 7 ROUNDS of combat! With all those minis on the board, plus one guy being brand new to tabletop, added to the fact that it was just a series of TERRIBLE rolls by the party and it was a total grind!
After it was all said and done my players were sick of the whole adventure and who could blame them? Oh they pressed on but more out of nostalgia than anything else. In the end they got another 3 rooms in, barricaded themselves in, and the ranger suicided; frankly I don't blame him.
I don't know what I could've done differently in the actual encounter but in the interest of organic gaming I obliged the ranger's death wish which attracted others like moths to a flame and the party ran for the hills choosing not to go back until the cult of evil chaos showed their true colors. But that makes sense; it was logical.
Now that brings up my second point: Intelligence.
Take the lowly Aranea/CR 4. For a villainess threatening a bunch of adventurers in a story arc meant to take them from 1st to 2nd, possibly 3rd level physically she's a challenge but I'm not concerned with anything except her spells, powers, and her Intelligence (14).
Years ago I was designing an adventre and asked a buddy for some advice. He said who's your main villain and I said an Ogre Magi that's eating people. My buddy said what's his int? I looked and said "high". He asked me what would a highly intelligent person with the ability to charm people magically just with his willpower be doing hiding out in the woods eating transients? So began one of the more epic 2e campaigns I've run.
But it's stuck with me; if the monster's highly intelligent play it up.
So back to the Aranea. 14 Int, Charm Person and Invisibility, and it can change shape into a fine looking woman. Such a woman could literally run an entire village. Why then would there be ANYTHING obvious about her operation or defenses?
I could imagine one "dungeon" of a town infected and infested with her schemes, being the longest, most dangerous grind any 1-3rd level party's ever faced. A mob of racist townsfolk turned on the players, charmed ogres in the barn, a random sleep spell hurled on them from 150' away, and then waking to find themselves in the gaol, unarmed, with a werebat as a cell mate.
I guess all this together points to the fact that 15 minutes or 15 days; the aranea has a lot of tactics to beat the party with if played with intelligence and organic structure. Cut your players some slack; they're only human.
Mooks and levies, they are gold for testing the defences of camping adventurers. I was reading the new Pf monster the ratling recently, could be perfect stuff for those who sleep in dangerous places.
There is also the possibility of an old favourite, the halfling thieves from Golden Axe. In they rush, grab stuff, and try to flee. Camping in your base or castle is one thing, camping in a dungeon or a highly dangerous area is another.
One thing we are also forgetting is that unless they are ambushed, PCs rarely do a straight up fight. Many try and sneak up on the enemy or gain some kind of advantage on them that can turn the encounter in their favor.
For my games, sweet spot at low levels = 12 encounter areas. 3 CR-1, 6 CR, 3 CR+1. The party won't encounter EVERY encounter area, but they'll hit enough in a single play session for a good game and if they flame out too soon and are sent packing its not impossible to pick up again.
My last game I had 2 NPCs and 2 less-than-optimized PCs run through a mite-infested brewery and underground caves. The encounter zones were spread across outdoor areas, inside the brewery, then the caves.
In total I planned 12 encounters; a few run-ins w/minor bugs or a single mite/low CR bug, then several instances of giant spiders or bees, and finally a few major encounter zones with either classed mites or lots of em. I left out traps completely; no rogue in the party and 3 of 4 party members w/terrible saves.
Anyway we all had a blast and the dungeon was a complete success. By the time they finished w/the last chamber they'd sent all the mites packing, the giant bugs were scattered and they'd only nova'd at the end, when it was appropriate. All total they were only on the brewery grounds IC for about an hour.
For the next dungeon I want to have all the entrances have a CR 2 challenge. This puts them up against the hard thing first, then pepper in some easy stuff, and then WHAM! CR 3 miniboss and underlings. The point wont be to clear the place, it'll be to get said boss.
I know I sound like a broken record, but I choose to beat the 15min workday by ignoring it and not penalizing my party for it.
Oh, and one other thought to quote Moe: Spread Out! The brewery example above took an hour because the grounds were expansive and the caves labyrinthine. The encounter zones were spread out, sometimes upwards of a hundred feet or more.
A dungeon doesn't HAVE to be a collection of rooms right next to one another. Consider making a series of islands of solid ground in the heart of a bog; the bog covers a 3 mile radius and the encounter zones are scattered throughout. In between zones the party has to contend with the natural hazards of the bog and could face potential Fatigue or something. But because of the objective and victory conditions they have to keep going. Getting through all of that swamp just to find a single McGuffin could take hours IC and they'd have EARNED their rest after all of that slogging!
For what it is worth, I try to keep my baseline encounters at APL+1 or +2, and a "hard" fight is APL +4. A few reasons:
1) I am not always on top of running the opposition at its best.
2) My party is at times over-WBL or 5+ members. When things got back down to 4 members and at-WBL, they were used to it, so I never went back.
3) They're very high level now, and 2 high-level encounters is more plausible than 4.
A dungeon doesn't HAVE to be a collection of rooms right next to one another.
Of course not! A dungeon is a collection of rooms isolated from each other by long, implausible 10x10 stone corridors!
I have never seen a case where "The Threat of Increasing Difficulty" worked. If used it only reenforces the 15min work day. Because after they returned to the now reinforced dungeon they have a harder fight and lose more resources and this only convinces them that they were correct to bite it off in small pieces. And then they retreat after the next 15min bite.
The only three things that work in my experience are "Timed", "No Rest", and situations where the players get emotionally motivated to press on just to stomp the villain flat with great eagerness. Of course this assumes that they are predisposed to a 15min work day anyway. But this thread is about the 15minute crews not the ones that normally press onward.
In the end it's all about the GM controlling the pacing rather than the players. If the GM doesn't actively take control then he gets whatever the players hand him.
PS: Keeping pressure on them from lower powered mooks is a great way to implement the No Rest method. Because they can't simply ignore these easier fights.
What about replacing their resources? Players grumbling about being stuck in the middle of level 2 w/no more spells? Toss 'em a wand of fireball.
Things I've done in this vein:
Super-powered Lyrakian. In the description of the creature it says they like stories and tales, and one of their powers is curing fatigue. I gave one in my games an uber-fatigue-cure where, if you tell her a story COOL enough she Refreshes your party completely.
Healing fonts. One time use per day that spit out a 3d6 positive channel.
Another one I haven't used but want to was in a Dungeon mag from Paizo: Legendary Bolthole. For ex: the party is weary and grabs a door looking for a way out of the dungeon for some r&r. On the other side they spy a fey-touched wood. Wandering out into the moss-dappled glade they see a strange cottage, made of candy. Turns out there's a witch there, but unlike the fairy tales that slander her she doesn't eat children. She invites you to a candy feast Wonka-style and when you're good n' stuffed she smiles, kisses you all on the head and sends you on your way. Opening the door from her cottage you turn and wave good bye, then step thru...into the dungeon once more. Was it a dream? No, because you can still taste the peppermint creme and the rogue is licking icing off her fingers. But yet it feels like you slept for hours...you're completely refreshed.
Basically the concept is is you can have a dark world demi-plane like Ravenloft floating around, why can't you have light ones too that throw some positive vibes at the party too? So these places have some kind of mechanic whereby if you complete some innocuous task like taste-testing the oracle's cookies or axe throwing with some vikings and while you're having such a wonderful time you don't realize your mana and health pool refilling.
Anyway, if you want to prolong the mayhem, I suggest following every single one of the suggestions in this thread: a random and diverse set of CR creatures with hoards of treasure for you to replenish yourself with are in the apocolypse dungeon. Your mission is to start at level 1 and don't come back out until you hit level 20 and defeat the dragon BEFORE the Doomclock strikes 13 o clock. Along the way you'll be dogged at every turn so pick your sleep spots wisely if at all. However you'll also find wisened creatures to help you keep going, random dungeon fixtures to sustain you and the occasional non-sensical portal to happyland to bolster your resolve.
Now all along the way there will be traps and non-combat encounters like puzzles, tricks and riddles. You'll also have to bandy words with some of the worst scum ever to stride the material plane. If you leave and come back surely it will be twice as bad as the monsters will prepare for your every attack, so once underway you must not relent. But once emotionally invested in seeing it through to the end your resolve will serve you well. Finally you meet the dragon, snicker-snack goes your vorpal sword and Bam! Campaign over.
Congrats; you just played Castle Greyhawk in 1e.
