I am not sure if this should go in house rules, so please move it if necessary.
A player of mine really wants to make a force mage. I helped him construct a sorcerer with the arcane bloodline using the typical build guidelines, magical lineage and spontaneous meta magic on magic missile.
To combat the scaling weaknesses of CMB, I rules that the blood line arcana ability ( +1 to DC to any spell with a meta magic feat applie) would add to his CMB, since the topple would be that harder to resist. I also ruled that spell focus would apply as well.
This gives his a trip of +17 at 8th level. We discussed if this was too powerful and compared this to a trip build of a fighter. We concluded that a fighter could potentially have a CMB of 8 points higher (adding weapon focus, fighter class benefits, magical weapons and terrain, like higher ground and so on), and since the ruling only increases the CMB Roll by two, it should not be game breaking.
Does this seem like it could work, or do you think we are moving into dangerous territory? Even thought the sorcerer's trip is not as strong as a fighter, he does get four chances. I think, all in all, it's balanced, but again, I'm the one that made the ruling. It would be good to have other thoughts.
Probably pretty balanced, but remember that even if you strike a creature with more than one missile, you still get only one trip attempt on him.
Also, make sure to houserule it so that you can trip ghosts. Incorporeal undead need to be taken down a peg.
Sounds fine to me, except that he should only get one trip attempt per target of magic missile. Or if he wants to hit say 3 different targets, maybe give each of them a trip attempt but with a small penalty? Say -2?
Thanks Guys..
Take Boat... This is a long going argument on the boards about if he gets one attempt or multiple on a topple if hitting one opponent.
Not to start a war (flamers and trollers, back off, here is some steak), but what is your reasoning for this?
Thanks Guys..
Take Boat... This is a long going argument on the boards about if he gets one attempt or multiple on a topple if hitting one opponent.
Not to start a war (flamers and trollers, back off, here is some steak), but what is your reasoning for this?
To put it simply, if you get 5 trip attempts after casting a lv 1 spell, doesn't that sound overpowered?
Mostly because the missiles strike simultaneously I guess? I can't really think of a cogent argument. To be honest I thought this was settled by a Dev clarification somewhere or something. It pretty clearly can trigger more than once on one creature in the case of say, forceful hand pushing over multiple rounds.
Any particular arguments you know of in favor of multiple attempts? Or do you think it's just a straightforward reading? My PFS wizard has the feat because PFS is full of humanoids (and humanoids in groups), so I'd love to have a good argument to cheese this out.
It does feel a bit cheesy. I think this is GM territory until the feat gets an errata.
The only comparison that I can think of the top of my head is the improved trip feat combined with multiple attacks. If you have three plus attacks, let's say with haste so we're not talking about super high levels, you get three attempts and a higher chance of success. Granted, you have to hit and then make a CMB roll, unlike magic missile that auto hits.
I'm not sure if having this character trip upwards to 5 different people is better or him hedging his bets by putting all attempts to trip on target, or any combination in between.
Well the ruling to the arcane trickster only get to add his sneak attack to once per casting of magic missile (versus one target) one can then infer that the same applies to the toppling spell metamagic.
That is an interesting point, but wouldn't that be a specific overriding a general in that case? I'm not sure if it applies since it's called out specifically there and not mentioned here.
I can see that being a balanced way to adjucate it
So this is another thought, what about scorching ray and the burning meta magic feat? Is it the same as in it only effects one ray?
The more I review this, the more it seems like the topple, or in the case of scorching ray, burning, would apply to all rays or missiles.
In the meta magic feat section is doesn't limit the effect to one ray or detail limiting the casting of the spell at all. It just says it modifies the spell as casted. That means it would be placed on all parts of the spell.
I also think that it would apply multiple times to a single target since it doesn't spell out that only the first missile has the effect, as it says elsewhere. The trend on rules is if it doesn't say anything, there are no limitations, or at least the standard limitations are applied. Only when it is spelled out that a limitation exists, would a change be made.
I am not sure if it is overpowered since a target can only be tripped once, conditions do not stack. Therefore, if a caster could choose to trip multiple people, but decides he would rather increase his chances of tripping one, that would be his choice. Just like spreading damage over multiple opponents or having multiple rays hit one, as in scorching ray.
I think it works and is balance, although a potent ability, nonetheless.
I think I agree with you and will prepare an extra toppling magic missile next week at my FLGS. All I know is there's a Rakshasa in the module and that he's falling on his butt.
It does feel a bit cheesy. I think this is GM territory until the feat gets an errata.
The only comparison that I can think of the top of my head is the improved trip feat combined with multiple attacks. If you have three plus attacks, let's say with haste so we're not talking about super high levels, you get three attempts and a higher chance of success. Granted, you have to hit and then make a CMB roll, unlike magic missile that auto hits.
You would apply all bonuses and penalties that would apply to the attack making the trip attempt. For example with haste at lv 8, you could make 3 trip attempts with 2 at lets say +17 (+8 bab, +4 str, +2 imp trip, +2 weapon and +1 haste) and 1 at +12. Of course that is not counting anything else you may have to increase your hit with that weapon so it could go even higher. But I don't see how it's so much better at this point.
Sure the melee guy could get a higher bonus to his trip attempts, but first he has to hit (which you mentioned). Secondly when making a trip attempt, you do no damage (unless it's a natural attack with the trip ability). Thirdly if you fail the trip attempt by 10 or more, you can either drop your weapon (if you used a weapon with the trip quality) or you become tripped instead of your target. Not to sure if the caster of magic missile would fall prone if they fail.
Now about scorching ray with burning spell, I would say it's the same as magic missile with toppling spell. Because burning spell says "When a creature takes acid or fire damage from the affected spell, that creature takes damage equal to 2x the spell’s actual level at the start of its next turn.". So even if 3 rays hit the same target, it's still only 1 spell so I don't think the extra damage would stack.
I recently retired a force mage that was an arcane bloodline sorcerer. Gm allowed school focus and GSF to count toward trip attempt, also ruled that toppliing metamagic would count as "combat expertise" for purposes of prerequiste of "improved trip." I always played as one trip attempt per target no matter how many missiles hit them, but in a crowd control sitution this is not a big deal. GM also allowed "highten spell" to increase attempt by 1 for each spell level raised. As a side note, take a look at the force missile mage prestiege class from dragon mag 328. Lots of fun options for a force specialist.
No, it wouldn't stack, because like effects do not stack, but we do take the highest value.
What about empower spell? Would this only increase the 1d4 by 50% for only one missile, or for all of them?
What about maximize? What is true for one should be true to all.
No, it wouldn't stack, because like effects do not stack, but we do take the highest value.
What about empower spell? Would this only increase the 1d4 by 50% for only one missile, or for all of them?
What about maximize? What is true for one should be true to all.
Metamagic applies to the whole spell unless it specifies otherwise. So both empower and maximize would apply to all 5 missiles. I think the problem may be how some people perceive 5 magic missiles (cl 9, so it's one spell) hitting the same target. Both Take Boat and myself think that all 5 missiles would hit at once and toppling spell says "If the target takes damage, fails its saving throw, or is moved by your force spell, make a trip check against the target.". So if all 5 missiles hit at once I would say they are only taking damage once, therefore you would only make 1 trip attempt. Now if you have all 5 missiles hitting different targets, you would make a trip attempt on each target that took damage from the toppling magic missiles. Of course if you're running a home game you can rule it however you want.