Why sorcerers use charisma to cast?

[Beckett]

I've never really liked Cha for casting either. In my opinion, it sort of makes Cha an all over the place stat, spliting it between appearance, ettiquette, eloquence, grace, leadership, power of command, and ambient spellcasting. It doesn't make sense to me that social graces would also power magic. It's like two different catagories.

I'd honestly like if it was just Int and Wis. Int would be for most arcane magics that involve constant study, scholastic understanding, memorization, linguistics, and formulaic process. Wis would be anything about mysteries and understanding of spiritual, extraplaner, riddles, or religious concepts, primarily divine, but even Sorcerers, who need to understand themselves (in a more physical way than others) would fall under this.

I remember playing the Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic VG, and the way they did Force Power DC was D.C. 5 + Level + Wis mod + Cha mod, so generally starting out faily low (even if you min/maxed for Force Use), and gradually getting better as you leveled-up.

[Darkwing Duck]

There are a ton of myths and legends about magicians who got their power through negotiating/cajoling spirits. There is no class in Pathfinder that does this. The witch and summoner are as close as it gets. Negotiating/Cajoling spirits fits easily into the domain of Charisma and fits in well with the class background (no training, no firm answer in civilized regions as to where they get their powers - can be explained with fear of being put to the stake, etc.) and helps refocus charisma.

[Beckett]

Even that, I can see much more realisticly as either Int or Wis.

Int for attemtps to rule-lawyer, deal, or possibly intimidate (not the skill more like blackmail) and Wis for a deeper understanding of how "spirits" think, act, and what they might desire. If anything, Cha might be a huge deterent, trying to play off of emotions and empathize with these creatures who are not influenced by their feelings.

[Darkwing Duck]

Beckett wrote:

Even that, I can see much more realisticly as either Int or Wis.

Int for attemtps to rule-lawyer, deal, or possibly intimidate (not the skill more like blackmail) and Wis for a deeper understanding of how "spirits" think, act, and what they might desire. If anything, Cha might be a huge deterent, trying to play off of emotions and empathize with these creatures who are not influenced by their feelings.

I completely disagree.

Some people like to argue that if anything has anything to do with reasoning, then it must belong to Int. To consistently make that argument, Wis and Cha should be removed completely from the game in all ways. Because Charisma is social intelligence and Wisdom is "right-brained intelligence" (i.e. intuition).

But, within the context of the game, they are different kinds of intelligence then the kind that the Int score represents. And, by the way, kinesthetics (i.e. Dex) is, also, a different form of intelligence than the Int score represents.

"Not the skill, more like blackmail" is a meaningless statement. Blackmail is part of the skill. Its not just a matter of presenting the target with a choice between some action and you revealing something they don't want known. You have to get your target to feel more fear about the thing you are blackmailing them about - more fear about that than anything else. And that requires charisma. Else-wise, the target might just get pissed off that you are trying to manipulate them and you'll have the opposite reaction to what you want.

[Beckett]

Unless you blackmail them through a letter or Email, where your charisma just wouldn't matter at all. :)

Blackmail doesn't have to be about fear/intimidation at all. I know what your saying and trying to mean, I just do not agree.

[Darkwing Duck]

Beckett wrote:

Unless you blackmail them through a letter or Email, where your charisma just wouldn't matter at all. :)

Blackmail doesn't have to be about fear/intimidation at all. I know what your saying and trying to mean, I just do not agree.

I know of no rule that says that Charisma only applies in face-to-face encounters. Frankly, such a rule doesn't make sense to me, given all the real world counter examples. I've never met Danny Devito or Obama or Clinton face to face, but I still get affected by their charisma.

[wraithstrike]

Darkwing Duck wrote:

Beckett wrote:

Unless you blackmail them through a letter or Email, where your charisma just wouldn't matter at all. :)

Blackmail doesn't have to be about fear/intimidation at all. I know what your saying and trying to mean, I just do not agree.

I know of no rule that says that Charisma only applies in face-to-face encounters. Frankly, such a rule doesn't make sense to me, given all the real world counter examples. I've never met Danny Devito or Obama or Clinton face to face, but I still get affected by their charisma.

I think he was saying you have to be able to observe them, and that writing well is not the same as having a good charisma so the writing won't help them.

I will also add that in real life that charisma does not exist as it does in the game, and you might be able to be convincing based on logic alone, depending on the person. I have met some charismatic(very likeable) people, but their logic was flawed and I knew better than to listen to them on a number of issues.

[Darkwing Duck]

wraithstrike wrote:

you might be able to be convincing based on logic alone

People with logic but no charisma are, like Al Gore, able to come up with a good argument that no one will listen to.

People with charisma but no logic are able to come up with bad arguments that people will listen to and agree with (see the comments by the two leading Presidential candidates for an example).

[wraithstrike]

Darkwing Duck wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

you might be able to be convincing based on logic alone

People with logic but no charisma are, like Al Gore, able to come up with a good argument that no one will listen to.

People with charisma but no logic are able to come up with bad arguments that people will listen to and agree with (see the comments by the two leading Presidential candidates for an example).

That depends on the listener. I shut nonsense down as soon as I hear it. I don't care how pretty the words are. If course I may my high dislike of nonsense may get me a modifier or maybe I have feat.

PS:I do get your point though. I had an instructor who spoke in a monotone voice when I was in the military. I don't remember anything he said. I just think that in real life charisma alone is not enough for most people. I am also aware that you never said it was enough by itself. :)

[Darkwing Duck]

wraithstrike wrote:

]

That depends on the listener. I shut nonsense down as soon as I hear it.

EVERYONE likes to think that they are the exception to the rule.

[Ross Byers]

I removed a post. Civility is a virtue. Also, now might be a good time to stop the derail into politics.

[Poldaran]

Beckett wrote:

I've never really liked Cha for casting either. In my opinion, it sort of makes Cha an all over the place stat, spliting it between appearance, ettiquette, eloquence, grace, leadership, power of command, and ambient spellcasting. It doesn't make sense to me that social graces would also power magic. It's like two different catagories.

Social graces don't power magic. That same internal fire which gives you your force of personality, which leads to you being strong socially, is also what powers magic. It's not a cause-effect between magic and social graces, they're just two correlated effects.