The Shadowdancer's is indeed a supernatural ability. I wouldn't allow it for a straight Ranger.
Its SU for assassin and Shadowdancer, eX for the ranger.
Regardless though it still leaves you in the odd situation of someone "hiding" when they can't actually move and nothing is stopping you from seeing them right there sitting in the chair.
I mean mechanically here- what happens?
SD: I HipS.
DM: *secretly rolls stealth check so player doesn't know how well he hid*
DM: "Ok you have tried to hide. its the jailer's turn.
DM(jailer): WTF?! *perception check!* *fails* WOW guy is gone! but.. he's right here.
I mean as a literal interpretation *what happens to the PC*. Is he invisible like the spell or what? it *seems* like the jailer should have no problem seeing him - but also clearly if he fails the perception check the PC is hidden.
I think I agree with AD here. Its a corner case that the ability doesn't explain well, and the DM should just say "That doesn't work in this particular instance".
-S
Hmmm.... you are right Radagast.... it is a supernatural ability for the Shadowdancer....
That does change my view a bit about how it could be used, but still, tied up, immobile and being actively interrogated, the shadowdancer can just disappear...?
I dunno... the more I think about it, the less convinced I am that it shouldn't work... There's a bit of Lamont Cranston going on here that I like...
I still say he doesn't move, and the ability doesn't let him escape - it has little other than roleplay value, as what guard in this world would be totally unfamiliar with magic? Maybe it's worth an intimidate check, or a circumstance bonus to escape artist if nobody's looking just that moment. Really, though, any half-intelligent guard is probably going to lash out right where the Shadowdancer [still] is, possibly with a boot, and say "Stop that!"
Either way, it's still a great scene.
Its SU for assassin and Shadowdancer, eX for the ranger.
Regardless though it still leaves you in the odd situation of someone "hiding" when they can't actually move and nothing is stopping you from seeing them right there sitting in the chair.
I mean mechanically here- what happens?
SD: I HipS.-S
Sorry you can't move, so you are still visible.
Hide in plain sight is not invisibility, rather it lets you try to hide.. but you have to move a bit in order to do so.
The arguments here would try to say that a paralyzed shadowdancer could hide..
Again no.
-James
PS: Ravingdork.. it's the same argument, and hasn't changed.
I disagree with your rule interpretation.
It says that normally you do it as a move not that you have to.It says its not an action, and that you usually do it as part of a move.
thats not the same as saying "you have to be able to mvoe to stealth"
or "you have to move to stealth".
A person can stand perfectly still and use stealth. or they can be moving while doing it. They even *get a bonus* for not moving.
At worst you could say they have to burn a move action to do it- but even that isn't the same as actually moving.
-S
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This is not exactly the same scenario, but I like the imagery.
"Upstairs they’re making him sound like a god. Wetboy this, wetboy that. Look at ’im. He ain’t nothing.” Lew casually backhanded Kylar. “Lew, I...” the captain cut off as Kylar disappeared. One by one the guards realized Kylar had vanished. There was dead silence for a moment. Then it was broken by the clang of manacles hitting the stone floor. “Where the hell—”
“Sir! He’s gone!”
“Block the door! Block the....”
The cell door slammed closed with all the guards inside. The lock clicked.
Kylar reappeared outside. Grinning, he waved the captain’s keys at them.
“That didn’t just happen,” one of them said. “Tell me that didn’t just happen.” Another cursed under his breath. The rest still looked like they couldn’t believe it.
Actually James, your logic - or perhaps more aptly, your notion of my logic - is flawed. It's like different programming codes - I'm not following a RAW-based logic system. I don't equate "bound" with "paralyzed" or "unconscious." One size does not fit all. I follow concept-based logic systems - a supernatural shadowcrafter, known for weaving darkness and dancing within it, can absolutely coax a bit of shade from the corner. It doesn't actually break any RAW that I've seen, and you'd have to go out of your way either to discount it or to break it. The concept is sound, and awesome, and very much situational.
So, what do you think the intent is, skylancer4?
The intent of that line in grapple? No hiding from anyone who has a physical hold on you. Basically if they have a "hand" on you they'll always be able "find" you. Everyone else is fair game.
I also dislike treating Tied Up as part of a grapple, unless it was done as part of the grapple. If you've been knocked out, tied up, manacled to the chair whatever, there's been no grappling going on.
Strictly applying the grappling rules, once tied up the shadowdancer couldn't hide from the person who tied him up, but could from everyone else. So, strictly speaking, the interrogator only can automatically see the bound shadowdancer if the interrogator was the one who bound him. But the guard who tied him up, who's been outside on his lunch break will spot him automatically when he comes back in.
Technically it isn't a grapple anymore. The character is tied up with a DC set by the grapple score of the person who used the ropes on them. That person left the "grapple" and is free to do whatever they wish, the tied up person is left with a "pinned" like effect. Pinned is a more severe condition of grapple, but you aren't in a grapple anymore.
The guard who did the ropes would be just as susceptible to the HiPS as they left the "grapple" and aren't considered to be grappling anymore. At some point after securing the shadowdancer they left the grapple as a free action. The shadowdancer is still left with that "pinned" like effect however.
I'm still of the opinion that a bound/tied up/heavily manacled person is helpless.
Well I'm just rolling with tied up being helpless.
Bound guy can attempt an escape artist check.
My GM ruling on this would be along the lines of 'If the tables were turned, would the players scream blue murder if this happened to them', and the answer here is YES - The players would be outraged if he could just hide whilst bound tight in a chair and was otherwise helpless. It also sets a bad precedent that it is best to hack off the arms and legs of every captive going forward, and gouge out their eyeballs too.
Its pure 'bad gamesmanship'
Surely it means you have to be INSIDE of the shadowy area, 10ft away from the edge of the bright light. Being a Shadow Dancer I presumed that they would need to be in shadows to use the ability.
If it meant that, it would say "As long as she is in a 10 foot area of dim light."
Hide in Plain Sight (Su)
A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.
LOL hmmm that could be somne great cheeze...
Are you WITHIN 10' of dim light, or are you within 10' of dim light.
As in are you inside it, or are you adjacent it.
Strange stuff the English language.
Assuming you were on a flat sundrenched plain with one small shrub casting a shadow 10' away, how far could you then move from the shadow and still be in stealth? Can I HiPS and then walk 5 miles across a clear and brightly lit flat area? or do I have to remain in a shadow?
If I dont have to be in 10' of shadow, could I flip a coin (so not my own shadow) and hide in the shadow of the coin?
During our first 3rd ed game we almost killed a much higher then us level shadowdancer (don't ask me why the GM used him,he thought it was fun maybe) by casting Light him.
He panicked, but we didn't know why, since we still didn't know which class that NPC was.
But any one can use stealth in an area of dim light. If you have to be within a large shadow to use HiPS what use is it?
This. Very much this.
You can hide in an area of dim light, but NOT if being directly observed... THAT is what HiPs does.
So what that is all saying is that in a normal situation, you cannot hide yourself in an environment of normal light and no other 'concealment'.
However in the case of dim light, this counts as concealment for attempting to use stealth, ie, the old 'hide in shadows' of yesteryear.
You don't need to find additional 'concealment', as the shadows etc are enough. Note that against a person with Darkvision, you would still be spotted.
Regardless of the above, whilst being directly observed one cannot attempt to Stealth. Note the full stop. If they are watching you, you are being directly observed.
Without HiPS you'd need to move into cover or concealment (ie have something to break line of sight - bushes, undergrowth, trees, etc) to enter Stealth.
HIPS allows you to attempt stealth whilst being directly observed within your favoured terrain (or shadows in this case). Where the Shadowdancer is different is that there is a suggestion you only need to be ADJACENT to your terrain (Shadows). It also doesn't quantify or qualify the area of dim light, can a shadow cast by a coin do it?
Except the sentence about being directly observed has no qualifiers, only a full stop. If you are being directly observed, and you can be directly observed in dim light, you cannot hide in it.
You can hide in dim light whilst NOT being observed (in the absence of other C&C) however. Example: You hide in a dimly lit room just in shadow, then another person walks in = fine.
Trying to hide in those same shadows whilst already being observed = no.
What if he polymorphed into a philly cheesesteak sandwich instead of trying to hide?
Den we'd hafta break out da bath salts cause I'd be noshing on 'is face! (Once I found the poncy git)
So every Shadowdancer now carries a single copper piece.
As their free action they drop the coin, then hide in the area of dim light (shadow) it creates.
Awesome.
Gouda!
Light spell and torches are normal light within 20 foot after that than it's Dim Light which Dim light you can hide in plain sight in, but if you are in a 20ft room with a light spell or torches you can't hide in plain sight.
Hiding in plain sight isn't about hiding in the shadows it's about hiding in Dim light up to Darkness while being observed. A Light spell and torch sheds normal light up to 20 ft AoE. I'd find it very funny if you said I try to hide in plain sight under a table or a chair, and if you need my response to that than I'll give it next post.
Yeah, you're right there. I'd been reading posts here about needing to be within 10' of shadow and didn't go back to the actual text.
Personally, I'd like it if it worked my way. Maybe as a higher level ability. If you could, for example, use the shadow of the person you were trying to hide from. It's a supernatural ability. It would be cool, provide interesting challenges and a reason to take more than a 1 level dip of shadowdancer.
I'm imagining a shadowdancer staying behind someone like it's some sort of comedy sketch. I actually think this might be acceptable within the rules.
As to RD's question, there is always a point when the GM needs to step in and just say "You are bound to a chair. Where are you going to hide?" The description actually states that they don't need anything to actually hide behind but I would also think that if you are tied to a chair, it's not like you can really hide well.
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Too bad it doesn't say "within 10 feet of a shadow".
It says "within 10 feet of dim light". "Dim Light" is a defined term, so no, HiPS doesn't let you hide in the shadow of anything that isn't officially "dim light". "She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow." is a relic from 3.X where the description of the ability did say "within 10 feet of some sort of shadow". Since the shadowdancer requires dim light to use the ability, she couldn't use it in a completely dark room while being observed by an creature with darkvision, either.
Remember that tying someone up from a grapple takes 3 seconds, so I wouldn't want to compare it to someone who takes a couple minutes to tie you up while you are unconscious.
I don't have anything else to contribute except for saying I believe james maissen has the right of it, but NobodysHome has the rule of cool.
The copper piece trick is out. The lighting rules are too granular. Changes in light levels smaller than a 5' square don't exist as far as the rules are concerned. I believe you could, however, hide in your horse's shadow.
Got a RAW reference?
Happy if you do!
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Got a RAW reference?
Happy if you do!
In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat. Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss chance in combat) from those without darkvision or the ability to see in darkness. A creature within an area of dim light can make a Stealth check to conceal itself. Areas of dim light include outside at night with a moon in the sky, bright starlight, and the area between 20 and 40 feet from a torch.
If you can somehow equate the shadow shed by a penny (or any other object) to the lighting level of a moonlit night, a room lit by a candle, or the edge of light shed by a torch, then by all means go ahead and rule that shadowdancers can get away with using penny shadows to hide in.
Myself, I'd go so far as to say that shadows and lighting level aren't even related.
A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.
The Shadowdancer needs to be near an area of dim light to HiPS, not a shadow. Like I said before, the last sentence is a relic from 3.X.
As an aside, but related to dim light, it seems that low-light vision doesn't work like I expected it to.
Under Monster Abilities:
A creature with low-light vision can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of dim light. It retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.Under Special Abilities:
Characters with low-light vision have eyes that are so sensitive to light that they can see twice as far as normal in dim light. Low-light vision is color vision. A spellcaster with low-light vision can read a scroll as long as even the tiniest candle flame is next to him as a source of light.Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day.
This seems to change torchlight from
20ft normal light, 20ft dim light, the rest is darknessto
20ft normal light, 40ft dim light, the rest is darkness.
Somehow I thought that it turned into
40ft normal light, 40ft dim light, the rest is darkness.
I happen to generally concur that an area should be at least 5', however what I find concerning is the part about not being able to hide in their own shadow. Now we know full well that theres no way a person is uniformly creating a 5' cubic shadow adjacent themselves, so why make the reference they can't hide in their own shadow? Does that suggest they can hide in other peoples shadows? Why is the line there if it would otherwise be mechanically redundant anyway, unless, of course, it isn't.
And if it isn't, then what, by RAW, constitutes an area?
Is there a single line of RAW that suggests an area must exceed 5' cubed?
I also note it says Dim light, does that mean they can't hide in an area of dark level lighting?
Also, thanks for the bit on Low Light, I thought it was as you suggested!
Slightly redundant though, because unless you are underground, it is probably 20' light, then dim light to the horizon. It is only dark if it is a moonless night etc, in which case the elf is no better off in a forest than anyone else.