Ok I have been reading about the flurry of blows controversy for months and I thought I had a grasp of the difference between what a lot of people had been doing in their home games vs what the debs had intended it to be when they designed it.
So I was surprised when I couldn't answer a simple question from my player.
Can he flurry with a single temple sword, or not?
I think I'm just having a brain-fart, this should be pretty simple, but the "any combination" wording has me doubting myself.
So far the offical ruling is no. TO use flurry of blows you must use an 'offhand' attack, even if the description says otherwise.
I don't like it. Cool imagery, the monk flurrying with one temple sword.
Wow, ok.
Well I'm going to let this PC flurry with a temple sword then. I let the magus spam arcane mark for another swing so I don't see why it would unbalance anything.
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Wow, ok.
... I let the magus spam arcane mark for another swing so I don't see why it would unbalance anything.
I could see this now o some survivor:
Wizard walks up, "Oh, I see that you got in a fight with Bob again, I think that I count 10 new marks!"
that is like the magical version of beating someone up with a branding iron... LOL
Lol
*Scott Kurtz voice*
"Aaahhhhhhh ya marked!"
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham)
Flurry of blows allows a character to dish out a massive amount of attacks, with minimal damage. Mechanically the damage is under control because its unarmed, but when you start adding weapon damage on top of everything it becomes over powered quickly.
Flurry of blows allows a character to dish out a massive amount of attacks, with minimal damage. Mechanically the damage is under control because its unarmed, but when you start adding weapon damage on top of everything it becomes over powered quickly.
No, not really.
Wow, ok.
Well I'm going to let this PC flurry with a temple sword then. I let the magus spam arcane mark for another swing so I don't see why it would unbalance anything.
Flurrying with a single temple sword is exactly how most people have been doing it all along, and what the "original intent" would have prevented. Also, arcane mark spam is specifically permitted in the FAQ (although you're always free to ban it if it isn't a PFS game).
Flurry of blows allows a character to dish out a massive amount of attacks, with minimal damage. Mechanically the damage is under control because its unarmed, but when you start adding weapon damage on top of everything it becomes over powered quickly.
Wait, what? A monk's unarmed strikes eventually hit 2d10 base damage. Let me say that again slowly for you: two dee ten base damage. Most (not all, but most) monk weapons deal 1d6 base damage . . . one dee six base damage.
But wait! That dastardly monk could put special weapon properties and enhancement bonuses on his weapons! The gall!
And did you know that he can put enhancement bonuses and special weapon properties on his unarmed strikes as well, thanks to a magic item called the amulet of mighty fists?
Nice try, but those weapons can up to +10, the AoMF is limited to +5!
Well, technically you are right. But if you have someone in your party with greater magic weapon or greater magic fang, they can put up to a +5 enhancement bonus on your unarmed strikes, while you rely on the amulet for up to +5 worth of special weapon properties (both of those spells lasts for 1 hour per caster level, too).
So, no, my friend FerrisAir. I believe that you are wrong in this instance.
Master Arminas
Flurry of blows allows a character to dish out a massive amount of attacks, with minimal damage. Mechanically the damage is under control because its unarmed, but when you start adding weapon damage on top of everything it becomes over powered quickly.
Actually, it's better than under control, it totally sucks. Why? because you can't hit anything.
1) Monks are MAD, so they almost always lose +1-2 to hit because of lower key stats for hitting.
2) Monks use 3/4 BAB if they do not flurry, and full BAB-2 if they do flurry.
3) Monk weapons are appalling, only the temple sword is any good at all, all the rest are no better than 1d6 x2/20.
4) Monk enhancement on unarmed attacks is limited to +5 with the AoMF. As Master Arminas says, you could get a druid to buff you but there are two problems with this - the first is, why would he? The second is do you have a druid at all?
So the monk has a choice compared to the other combat classes: deliver hits of respectable damage but substandard chances to hit, or deliver hits that keep up with other combat characters in terms of hitting but do minimal damage.
Basically, on average a fallen paladin dishes out better DPR than a monk.
Wait, I'm utterly confused, when did they change the rullong on FoB?
My understanding is that you can use the full flurry with any monk weapon, and if you want to add in an unarmed strike somewhere in there, that's cool too, so long as you don't go over your requisite attacks.
If something has changed, then bummer, monk damage just took a huge nerf.
And @Dabbler: Monk DPR when built and geared properly is above average. Temple Sword (or Naginata if UC weapons and archetypes are allowed) is key to this.
Jeraminmus Rex:
Flurry of Changes to Flurry of Blows is one of the threads dedicated to talking about the 'clarification' SKR made, that was later put on hold by Jason. It includes all relevant quotes from the developers on the first page.
Unfortunately, PFS is still in limbo, because they have (I believe) instituted the 'clarification' as a set rule. It poses a number of issues, not the least of which are bringing into question how the Sohei and Zen Archer archetypes are supposed to function, among others.
Have fun reading. We are still waiting for an official solution to the problem.
Master Arminas
And @Dabbler: Monk DPR when built and geared properly is above average. Temple Sword (or Naginata if UC weapons and archetypes are allowed) is key to this.
Compared to what, I'd love to know. Temple sword is about the only decent weapon the monk has available, and requires a strength-built monk to be effective. Strength built monks then lose out on a lot of skills and features, not to mention AC.
To play a DPR monk, don't give into MAD and buy up STR the same as any other melee. Then you get a class that has full 2wf feats, base 4d8 damage enlarged, an extra attack for ki.
And a crappy AC and hit points, because you neglected Dex, Wis and Con, I have to point out.
The real way to do it is to max out on Dex so your AC stays upo and get an agile amulet of mighty fists.
In either case, though, you either lose out on to-hit (which drags down DPR) or you lose out on weapon properties (which add a lot to DPR and bypassing DR).
The problem is not with the class, it's with the thinking that you can build a melee class without doing the same things every other melee does. I see tons of posts that have dex based monk builds. That don't buy up str to the same level as other classes and then wonder why they can't keep up in damage.
This is because monks are MAD. You need strength for damage, and also dexterity and wisdom for AC and your other abilities. Then you need Con, because you only have d8 hit dice. As I stated above, an agile AoMF will allow you to stack your damage up, but even then you are down on what a full BAB class can dish out due to lower hit chances and lower static bonuses.
The monk is combat class, that's what it does. At the end of the day a combat class has to hit and do damage.
There's a comparison with a barbarian in this thread and two monks, one strength-designed (as you recomend) and one dex-designed by myself (the builds are on pages 10 and 16 of the thread). The dex-monk performs better than the strength monk, but the barbarian beats both hands down.
I do think that making monk a 3/4 bab class that is full bab when flurrying unnecessarily complicates the class. Monk should have been a full bab class.
That's one fix, certainly. Another is to drop the full BAB on flurry and instead add something like fighter weapon training with unarmed strike and monk weapons so the monk has the same attack bonus flurrying or not. The main problem, though, is the lack of available enhancement for the unarmed strike and the lack of effective weapons the monk is proficient in without an archetype or a prohibitive feat tax.
The problem here is that the best the monk can be is moderately good. There are no really awesome builds, and the moderate ones take a hell of a lot of work to make work, and even then can end up effectively useless in certain situations.
Some of the archetypes are pretty good, but then you are basically making the monk work by making it not-a-monk.
Yes, he's a decent build, combat wise. His AC actually stacks up (by use magic device and wands), and his damage output is reasonable.
On the flip side, he's min-maxed to the hilt, being a crude moron with no social skills. His skills are second-rate, and for 12th level so are his hit points. All he can do outside of combat is grunt, and I for one would have no fun playing this as a character, and he's about as far from my concept of a monk as an enlightened warrior-philosopher as I think you can get. That's just a flavour thing, though.
In combat he's passable. Sorry, but there it is. He's min-maxed everything in order to be a second-tier fighter just virging on first tier. You can build a barbarian with saves nearly as good, AC passable, twice the hit points and better hitting power (there's one in another thread, 13th level but close enough to see the similarity).
You could improve this guy by going for Dragon style (would give +4 bonus damage from strength to unarmed attacks in this case) rather than Crane Style. Crane Style is good defensively, but with AC that high that's less of a worry - that you do shows you are aware that this monk has defensive issues.
So here you have an archetype, min-maxed to hell and back, and he only just about makes a decent hitter. I think that really underlines the monk's problems. Please understand, I'm not trying to put down your build, I'm highlighting the failings of the class.
I think, this video is relevant to the conversation.
I have a blast playing my monk at 12th level. Even without knowing the Dimensional feat tree to make my Abundant Step more useful I still get good times grappling. Heck, I was trapped on an icy ledge with 2 ogres getting ready to smash me, with Greater Grapple I was able to trip the 1st one, and grapple the 2nd. I spent ki on AC. On the next round, 1st ogre got up and missed me with his attack. 2nd ogre failed his grapple check and missed me with his attack. I then tripped the 1st ogre again, and pinned the 2nd. Round 3, rinse and repeat the ki, ogre gets up and misses, and 2nd ogre is pinned (and fails rolls). Trip, tie up the 2nd ogre. Next round 1st ogre gets up again and hits me, but doesn't do considerable damage. Greater grapple then pin in the same round.
At this point I was able to tie up the 1st and leisurely Coup de Grace (flavored to kick one over the edge after a particularly nasty string of insults).
My group was over 1000 ft away and by the time they got there I was just sitting atop this ogre twiddling my thumbs.
It takes a focused idea of what you want to do and a lot of creativity. I rarely Flurry. I use Spider Climb a lot and drop onto enemies from the ceiling. I went the Greater Grapple route, but Greater Trip would be pretty awesome too.
That was my monk, grapple focused. Been hugely successful and fun.
That was my monk, grapple focused. Been hugely successful and fun.
I think this sums it up. Monks may not be the most effective class in terms of sheer damage, but every single person in my games who has played a monk has had fun with them.
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You can do a lot with monks. I wish they could get a bump in their unarmed attack bonus, but I have seen them be very, very effective at high and low levels.
They play differently than other classes, and so a lot of players have trouble figuring out how to play them. Tactics that work great in one encounter are incredibly dumb in other encounters, and that can be hard to adapt to.
I really enjoy playing them. Not my favorite, could use a small boost to unarmed attack bonus, but not nearly as weak as some claim.
I agree, you can do a lot. Problem is that unlike other combat classes, when the things you do don't work, you have no fall-back damage. Hell, you have no fall-back hitting unless you played it very clever. That's the real problem, a combat class that in distressingly frequent circumstances cannot actually do much compared to other combat classes.
and it begins! shouldn't we all just go back to this thread here:
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5ec0?Flurry-of-Changes-to-Flurry-of-Blows