Arcane Trickster + Elven Dreamspeaker = early entry?

[Delewobmesid]

Would an Elf with a Cha of 15 and the Dreamspeaker racial option, meet the 'able to case at least one arcane spell of 2nd level of higher' class requirement of the arcane trickster? Does the ability to use Dream as a spell like ability meet that prestidge class requirement?

The Idea is to have 3 levels of rogue and 1 level of sorcerer and then go into arcane trickster from there.

Other than needing GM approval as it is cheesy as all get out, would this be a 'legal' way to get into the class a few levels early?

•Dreamspeaker: A few elves have the ability to tap into the power of sleep, dreams, and prescient reverie. Elves with this racial trait add +1 to the saving throw DCs of spells of the divination school and sleep effects they cast. In addition, elves with Charisma scores of 15 or higher may use dream once per day as a spell-like ability (caster level is equal to the elf's character level). This racial trait replaces elven immunities.

[Sean FitzSimon]

No, sorry. It's a spell-like ability, not a spell.

[Umbral Reaver]

Spell-like abilities never count toward such prerequisites.

[Happler]

I keep thinking that I read somewhere from a dev that having a spell as a spell-like ability does not qualify you as 'able to case at least one arcane spell of 2nd level of higher'.

I cannot find the post now, but it mostly comes down to the fact that you do not cast spell-like abilities. (after all, they cannot be counterspelled or be used to counterspell)

[spalding]

As Sean said but I'll go more in depth:

1. Spell like abilities are not the same as the ability to cast spells.
2. Spell like abilities are neither arcane nor divine in nature and therefore wouldn't count as the ability to cast an arcane spell of 2nd level or higher.

[Phasics]

even if it worked its not that good anyway your still -3 caster levels which is the main problem with trickster

[Lurk3r]

Phasics wrote:

even if it worked its not that good anyway your still -3 caster levels which is the main problem with trickster

The main problem, yes, unless you are a rogue who only wants to dip AT for Ranged Legerdemain...

[Phasics]

Lurk3r wrote:

Phasics wrote:

even if it worked its not that good anyway your still -3 caster levels which is the main problem with trickster

The main problem, yes, unless you are a rogue who only wants to dip AT for Ranged Legerdemain...

Aye a rogue with a bit of casting can work reasonable well, the hit to your rogue abilities is minimal although if you dip 1 level of sorc 1 level of AT both levels give you +0 BAB putting you at a +13 BAB over 20 levels which is not great either.

[Delewobmesid]

Phasics wrote:

even if it worked its not that good anyway your still -3 caster levels which is the main problem with trickster

Unless you take the trait Magical Knack which bumps your caster level 2 as long as that doesn't put your caster level above your hit dice.

I guess I'm just looking for the ruling which separates use spell-like abilities from cast spells.

[Phasics]

Delewobmesid wrote:

Phasics wrote:

even if it worked its not that good anyway your still -3 caster levels which is the main problem with trickster

Unless you take the trait Magical Knack which bumps your caster level 2 as long as that doesn't put your caster level above your hit dice.

I guess I'm just looking for the ruling which separates use spell-like abilities from cast spells.

your still 3 levels behind on your highest spell level which is the problem not your numerical caster level for effects.

acutally being sorc its even worse as your effectively -4 behind a wizard for highest spell level at that point

as for the ruling find the rule that says spell like abilities are arcane or divine because the AT specifically calls out requiring arcane spells.

In this case you need to find the rule that says you can not the rule that says you can't ;)

[Benly]

Delewobmesid wrote:

I guess I'm just looking for the ruling which separates use spell-like abilities from cast spells.

From the description of "Spell-Like Abilities" under Universal Monster Rules:

"Spell-like abilities are magical and work just like spells (though they are not spells and so have no verbal, somatic, focus, or material components)."

While they work like spells in many ways, they are not spells.

[spalding]

Also feel free to check the FAQ as that's where you'll find 'officially' that we are correct.

[Quori]

A good rule of thumb is to assume that if you've found a tricky way around casting requirements the usual answer is no. You just haven't found why it's no yet.

If for some reason you still can't find it's a no, you just have to ask a developer so that they can provide an official answer or update that clarifies that it's no.

People are always looking though. The Magister/Magus double-dip or the infamous Precocious Apprentice are some good examples.

We should all take bets on how many days it will be before another discussion pops up trying to surpass the spell level access of a wizard or bypass PrC/class pre req's before developers clearly intend.

Dibs on 3 days.