In the text of the Dominate person spell is the following statement...
"Subjects resist this control, and any subject forced to take actions against its nature receives a new saving throw with a +2 bonus."
Here is the scenerio...
We are facing 3 Sorcs and 8 fighters. I cast dominate person on one of the mages and then tell the mage to start fireballing the other mages.
On the surface it seems like a no-brainer for the Sorc to get a re-save to break the dominate however the Sorcs are Chaotic Evil. I know there is alot of disdain for the alignment system here at times but it is what it is. Based on the rules would the Sorc care who they are blowing up? Is blowing up people they know "against their nature"? It's hard for us to think in those terms because we are not CE =) I doubt they are "friends" with the other Sorcs since I have trouble picturing a group of CE people really getting along well other than through the use of intimidation and fear. The GM brought this up when I pointed out the re-save when I issued the order and this caused a long debate, as we are prone to do.
Secondary, would your answer change if I followed up the Dominate Person with a Charm person and became his best friend.
I am curious what others think.....
Chaotic evil people usually (but not always) work together via a coercing powerful leader, if the powerful leader is removed by any means, it usually breaks a war to see who can regain control, based on that information, is the dominated one the leader or a follower? if the dominated is not the leader, hence he is not powerful enough, he might fear hurting his leader, and thus the leader would hurt him back in return.
That's all I can muster.
"Subjects resist this control, and any subject forced to take actions against its nature receives a new saving throw with a +2 bonus. Obviously self-destructive orders are not carried out. Once control is established, the range at which it can be exercised is unlimited, as long as you and the subject are on the same plane. You need not see the subject to control it."
It seems that the fact they are attacking you as a GROUP should warrant the +2 new save. You find one of them alone it should not get a new save to bomb the other creatures you encounter.
Charm Person should not increase anything for you as YOU are already controlling the creatures actions with the Dominate Person spell.
Picture the opposite of the CE sorcerer as a Lawful Good cop. If I Dominate him and tell him to start blowing away people, would it matter more if I was his best friend?
Randy.... no, it would not matter but that's a whole different deal. A LG person will already respect life and other people. A CE person does not but the definition of the alignment.
A LG person is opposed to needless taking of life. A CE person could care less about killing.
It's really apples to oranges.
My thought was that CE people only deal in fear and bullying as a power strucutre. It's debatable if they can really have friends at all. So, if they suddenyl found themselves having a best friend they would be more prone to protect them.
Not sure that makes any difference in the case of killing others in their "group" but it would make a difference in many situations.
Scrogz,
I was using the "cop" anaolgy to illustrate the uselessness of the Charm Person in conjunction with the Dominate, not the fact they would look at it the same way. There is no foundation that the Charm Person would alter the target at all as YOU are in complete control of the creatures actions.
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So "Fireball your buddies" provokes a new saving throw, but "Enforce your command of the others, and feel free to use severe discipline upon any who challenge your authority" might produce the same results.
Force is making someone eat a boot. Tact is getting him to think it's his own idea.
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It works however your GM says it does. He understands the background and motivation of the NPCs better than you do, or should. You can try to argue the point with him but be aware there may be factors you're not aware of (a much more powerful leader in the background that would obliterate the sorcerer for turning on his allies, for example).
Correct Chris. Instead of "Fireball your party", telling him to "prevent anyone in your party from harming MY party by whatever means necessary" might be a better command.
That really depends on the individual. There is no cut and dry rule for it. In short what Thorkull said.
That is a fair way to sum it up Matt. Direct and to the point (and also in the GMs hands).
"Subjects resist this control, and any subject forced to take actions against its nature receives a new saving throw with a +2 bonus. Obviously self-destructive orders are not carried out. Once control is established, the range at which it can be exercised is unlimited, as long as you and the subject are on the same plane. You need not see the subject to control it."
The text "against its nature" is the tricky bit and is open to interpretation by the GM. If it were me, I would say using fire to show dominance is not against the CE caster's nature so no new save is required. Feel free to dominate him/her into nuking whatever you want.
I also say brave call on trying to dominate a caster rather than a feebleminded *grin* fighter-type. Bravo!
Hmm...what if I Dominate the caster and then force him to cast his own Dominate spell on someone...okay. Forget it. My head hurts now.
The question for the Sorc is: "What does he get out of Fireballing his own allies?"
If there's some immediate benifit to the Sorc then he should not get the save.
If there's no benifit at all, he should get the save.
Most situations there will be no immediate benifit for the Sorc.
I personally don't see this as pertaining to the spell in question. It's not a matter of negotiating with the dominated person to where they feel they are "getting some benefit out of it." They're being dominated after all. I think (although this may not be right) that they know they are being dominated. If someone is mentally controlling my actions then I'm not really thinking "what's in it for me?" I understand that this is just my viewpoint, though. YMMV.
Hmm...what if I Dominate the caster and then force him to cast his own Dominate spell on someone...okay. Forget it. My head hurts now.
Hehe, I don't believe dominate lets you know what spells they have in memory so you can give them only-so-detailed commands. But it is entirely possible to have chain dominations I suppose. Wow, that sounds bad.
LOL. If I knew he had it I could tell him to do it. Since talking is a free action I could make him yell out his prepared spells. And for the record...it DOES sound bad.
The question for the Sorc is: "What does he get out of Fireballing his own allies?"
If there's some immediate benifit to the Sorc then he should not get the save.
If there's no benifit at all, he should get the save.
Most situations there will be no immediate benifit for the Sorc.
Would a Chaotic Evil Person really care that much about the motivation?
That's the tough part in my opinion. None of us really understand the Chaotic Evil mind =)
Just for the record....I personally would have allowed him to bombard the party with Fireballs. I lean towards the CE side as a self-serving, free for all attitude with little or no regard for others lives.
Honestly I doubt there is a RAW answer to this question since the entire charm and dominate series of spells are so socialy oriented they need way more input from a GM than say a fireball.
The only real answer would be from the GM running the game, who will know if that particualr CE wizard would take an opportunity to destroy potential rivals or a enemy or if they fear their leader more than they like you or whatever.
As to your Charm question, I think Dominate is a more potent version of charm and as such Charms effect is included in the Dominate spell already isn't it?
I find MOST of the charm questions can usually be answered by the counter question "Would you do the command your giving the charmed enemy to one of your party members of your own free will? If the answer is no, then more than likely (not always though) your target is doing something against it's nature.
There are notable exeptions to this of course, such as inherently violent species who kill for fun, RP situations where your charm/dominate target already hate their compatriots, etc.
I was not looking for a RAW answer really. I was looking more for people's opinion. This is just one of the many situations that remind me why I love RPG's so much.