I thought of this near the end of my group finishing rise of the runelords with my rogue but at a point where going back to get the ring didn't make sense time wise.
Anyhow if you have a ring of telekinesis and a situation where the rogue would get sneak attack whether invisible or hidden or whatever) and say lob 8 sharp objects at a bad guy with telekinesis do you get sneak attack?
The problem I think is that the objects being thrown in many cases might not even be on the rogue . I think for many gms this might be an issue but not sure from a strict reading of raw if it matters. Though you could solve that by just carrying enough daggers to make merisiel jealous.
It depends on how precise the telekinesis is.
Sneak attacks are about precision, so if he can't throw it with the same accuracy of an attack, he can't sneak attack with it.
Telekinesis requires attack rolls. Spells that require attack rolls and deal damage can qualify for sneak attack. A ranged sneak attack requires the opponent to be within 30 feet and be denied its dexterity bonus to AC. If you do that, then you can sneak attack with telekinesis.
If you are simply using regular invisibility, I might rule that you only get sneak attack on a single attack (just as per normal iterative attacks out of regular invisibility). This is because each object being used requires a separate attack roll, similar to iterative attacks. If dex is denied by some other means (or through greater invisibility), then sneak attacks for all. I'd rule this, not because it makes a whole lot of logical sense, but because that seems the most balanced way to handle it.
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The spell (or ring) requires attack rolls, but, as mentioned, how can they be "precise?" You get attack rolls, but how are you giving the random objects the requisite precision a rogue or duelist needs to do that extra damage? Should we check to see if you're proficient with a weapon, or have the Throw Anything feat? Sounds like a lot of game-slowing work.
This has come up before regarding the arcane trickster class, as an argument against allowing multiple attacks to all do sneak damage (like scorching ray, but there are others).
The spell doesn't do "direct damage," but propels objects, so it doesn't do precision damage.
Direct damage spells requiring attack rolls can do precision damage. Telekenesis can't.
The only real 'defense' people have is wanting rogues/ arcane tricksters to 'be viable', which if that's really the worry then work with the group to house rule each of the classes not to have to depend on thin rules..
-James
As you can see, this is not really the case.
I don't really think the concept is terribly balanced. Which is one of the reasons beyond Getting the ring I didn't push it in the game I played in.
One thing though is precision attacks in the game don't require precision. Several posters above seemed to suggest this idea but from a rules point of view it doesn't exist.
The part I found odd to figure out as far as telekinedis goes is that since your picking up stuff off the ground and flinging them at a target I'm not sure how much the visibility of the caster matters.
One thing though is precision attacks in the game don't require precision. Several posters above seemed to suggest this idea but from a rules point of view it doesn't exist.
Precision damage matters to rogues and duelists. Both classes require certain conditions in order to get it applied to attacks, and tossing random objects with an area spell doesn't qualify.
Given that you don't add your Strength or Dex to the attack roll, I'd say that it's a spell effect rather than a melee or ranged attack (same idea as with spirtual weapon attacks). That means you don't get sneak attack any more than you do on a spiritual weapon.
The spell (or ring) requires attack rolls, but, as mentioned, how can they be "precise?" You get attack rolls, but how are you giving the random objects the requisite precision a rogue or duelist needs to do that extra damage? Should we check to see if you're proficient with a weapon, or have the Throw Anything feat? Sounds like a lot of game-slowing work.
This has come up before regarding the arcane trickster class, as an argument against allowing multiple attacks to all do sneak damage (like scorching ray, but there are others).
The spell doesn't do "direct damage," but propels objects, so it doesn't do precision damage.
Direct damage spells requiring attack rolls can do precision damage. Telekenesis can't.
So if I throw a dagger at someone, it can sneak attack. If I throw it at him using magic, it can't? That doesn't make sense. Nothing in the rules says that using telekinesis to throw things is random and haphazard. You have to hit regular AC, so it's exactly the same as a normal attack.
Please go look at the requirements for sneak attack. Is dex denied or are you flanking them? Are you making an attack roll? Does success on that attack roll deal damage? If you are attacking at range, are you within 30 feet? If you can answer yes to all of those, you sneak attack.
I would like you to find me something in the rules to back up your stance. If you can find something, I would accept it as a valid argument. If you are going into "this is how I'd rule it at my table, regardless of what RAW might be", then you are in the wrong part of the forum. This is a Rules Question, and as such needs to be answered by RAW.
RAW: If there is an attack roll, damage is dealt (not just applying a condition), the target is denied dex and you are within 30 feet, you get to sneak attack.
Both classes require certain conditions in order to get it applied to attacks, and tossing random objects with an area spell doesn't qualify.On this I'll disagree.
You are making attacks. They are lethal attacks. You benefit from bonuses to attacks and suffer such things as concealment.
It applies, I would just limit it to one sneak attack per volley.
-James
Bobson said what I'd say, but I'll clarify.
It's a spell. Spells don't get sneak attack except in certain circumstances, with certain casters, and levels of rogue or duelist don't add that, unless the prerequisites are met.
Don't confuse flat-footed foes with precision. The 3.5 "volley" was useless when it was written, and it still is. It defies how spells work, and how sneak attacks work in PF.
So if I throw a dagger at someone, it can sneak attack. If I throw it at him using magic, it can't?Correct. Your magic weapon doesn't increase sneak damage, for example.
That doesn't make sense. Nothing in the rules says that using telekinesis to throw things is random and haphazard. You have to hit regular AC, so it's exactly the same as a normal attack.
You're relying on a spell to make attacks for you that aren't your attacks. It just uses your roll.
Please go look at the requirements for sneak attack. Is dex denied or are you flanking them? Are you making an attack roll? Does success on that attack roll deal damage? If you are attacking at range, are you within 30 feet? If you can answer yes to all of those, you sneak attack.
How many attacks are you entitled to in around?
I would like you to find me something in the rules to back up your stance. If you can find something, I would accept it as a valid argument.I did.
If you are going into "this is how I'd rule it at my table, regardless of what RAW might be", then you are in the wrong part of the forum. This is a Rules Question, and as such needs to be answered by RAW.
I agree.
RAW: If there is an attack roll, damage is dealt (not just applying a condition), the target is denied dex and you are within 30 feet, you get to sneak attack.
Precision damage is again dependent on conditions. Telekenesis doesn't do it.
One thing though is precision attacks in the game don't require precision. Several posters above seemed to suggest this idea but from a rules point of view it doesn't exist.Precision damage matters to rogues and duelists. Both classes require certain conditions in order to get it applied to attacks, and tossing random objects with an area spell doesn't qualify.
My origonal coment like this from flesh grinder
"
It depends on how precise the telekinesis is.
Sneak attacks are about precision, so if he can't throw it with the same accuracy of an attack, he can't sneak attack with it."
And i wanted to clarify that if the game requires an Attack Roll there isnt a definition of 'how precise it is' It either meats the conditions required to apply precision damage or it doesnt.
The problem with Telekinesis is that it technically allows you to meet these requirements. example 1) can you see the person casting Telekineses yes/no? 2)Does it allow an attack roll.
The part quere it gets odd though is, Say my rogue has greater invis on and activates the ring, Picks up a bunch of rocks and throws it at the target. Bam sneak attack damage.
The part where it is wierd is the target can actualy see the rocks lift off the ground and hit them. and in fact how the attack actually works doesnt actually change at all If the rogue is out in the open.
But i cant see how any of this would be applied in an actual game as were i Gming id say 'first hit only' or similar to what was suggested above. But i was curious what the actual rules were on this.
my assumption was 'yes it works by the rules but is probably too broken for anyone sane to allow it' and Since its never braught up on the boads I assumed no one actualy plays it allowing dozens of sneak attacks.
though thematically carying around alot of needles and flinging them at people woul dbe kind of neat as far as the imagery goes.
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Bobson said what I'd say, but I'll clarify.
It's a spell. Spells don't get sneak attack except in certain circumstances, with certain casters, and levels of rogue or duelist don't add that, unless the prerequisites are met.
Don't confuse flat-footed foes with precision. The 3.5 "volley" was useless when it was written, and it still is. It defies how spells work, and how sneak attacks work in PF.
Again I disagree, and see nothing supporting your position.
A rogue/zen archer can sneak attack with a bow even though they are attacking using WIS and not DEX. It matters not.
A rogue with a wand of acid arrow can sneak attack with it.
Don't even see where you are justifying you are coming from here,
James
It needs an FAQ answered, and I'm saying telekenesis won't work as a sneak attack. Scorching ray or acid arrow certainly do. They can be precise, and deal direct magical damage.
You might as well say a ballista can deal sneak attack damage if a rogue fires it.
That doesn't make sense. Nothing in the rules says that using telekinesis to throw things is random and haphazard. You have to hit regular AC, so it's exactly the same as a normal attack.You're relying on a spell to make attacks for you that aren't your attacks. It just uses your roll.
You are making attacks. Just as spells that have attack rolls can crit (on a 20 with a x2 multiplier), spells with attack rolls can sneak attack.
Please go look at the requirements for sneak attack. Is dex denied or are you flanking them? Are you making an attack roll? Does success on that attack roll deal damage? If you are attacking at range, are you within 30 feet? If you can answer yes to all of those, you sneak attack.How many attacks are you entitled to in around?
There is actually no hard limit. At least not in any rulebook I've read. If you can find one, I'd be very interested to see it. You get as many attacks as you have attacks. In the case of telekinesis, you can have up to 15.
I would like you to find me something in the rules to back up your stance. If you can find something, I would accept it as a valid argument.I did.
Where was that? I must have missed it.
If you are going into "this is how I'd rule it at my table, regardless of what RAW might be", then you are in the wrong part of the forum. This is a Rules Question, and as such needs to be answered by RAW.I agree.
I'm glad we agree on this. At least conceptually. We seem to disagree on RAW requiring citation of actual rules, though.
RAW: If there is an attack roll, damage is dealt (not just applying a condition), the target is denied dex and you are within 30 feet, you get to sneak attack.Precision damage is again dependent on conditions. Telekenesis doesn't do it.
I've scoured the books and run a search through the PRD for a definition of "precision damage". The only instances I could find of it never gave it the limitation you seem to be adding. It does state that it is not multiplied on a critical hit. It does state that some creatures are immune to it. It states that sneak attack is precision damage. That's about it.
So, I'm going to cite some rules.
Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.
From the first sentence, if you can catch them unable to defend themselves, then you hit the vital bits. Seems pretty straight forward.
It then gives the lists some of requirements I stated earlier: denied dex or flanking, within 30 feet. So far so good.
Touch: You must touch a creature or object to affect it. A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit. Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch up to 6 willing targets as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell. If the spell allows you to touch targets over multiple rounds, touching 6 creatures is a full-round action.
Ray: Some effects are rays. You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon, though typically you make a ranged touch attack rather than a normal ranged attack. As with a ranged weapon, you can fire into the dark or at an invisible creature and hope you hit something. You don't have to see the creature you're trying to hit, as you do with a targeted spell. Intervening creatures and obstacles, however, can block your line of sight or provide cover for the creature at which you're aiming.
If a ray spell has a duration, it's the duration of the effect that the ray causes, not the length of time the ray itself persists.
If a ray spell deals damage, you can score a critical hit just as if it were a weapon. A ray spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit.
Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent's AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.
So here we establish that spells with attack rolls that deal damage are treated as weapons. In fact, rays are specifically called out as weapons. Touch attacks (including rays) are effectively weapons.
At this point, I feel that enough argument is made for all four points expressed above: attack roll, damage (not just condition or effect), denied dex and within 30 feet. However, I'm sure you're not convinced.
So I will direct you to the rules from which Pathfinder relies.
Volley Type Attacks
Sometimes, you make multiple attacks with the same attack roll, such as when you use the Manyshot feat, or you make multiple attack rolls as part of the same attack, such as with the scorching ray spell. When you do so, only the first attack in the volley can be a sneak attack.
...
Spells as Sneak Attacks
Any spell that requires an attack roll and deals damage can be used in a sneak attack. In this case "damage" is normal damage, nonlethal damage, ability damage, or energy drain. You can sneak attack with a Melf's acid arrow spell, but not with a magic missile spell.
Ranged spells are effective as sneak attacks only at ranges of 30 feet or less (just like any other ranged sneak attack).
A successful sneak attack with a weaponlike spell inflicts extra damage according to the attacker's sneak attack ability, and the extra damage dealt is the same type as the spell deals. For example, a 10th-level rogue who makes a successful sneak attack with a Melf's acid arrow spell inflicts 2d4 points of acid damage, plus an extra 5d6 points of acid damage from the sneak attack (note that continuing damage from this spell is not part of the sneak attack). Spells that inflict energy drains or ability damage deal extra negative energy damage in a sneak attack, not extra negative levels or ability damage. For example, a 10th-level rogue who makes a successful sneak attack with an enervation spell deals 1d4 negative levels plus an extra 5d6 points of negative energy damage.
If the sneak attack with a weaponlike spell results in a critical hit, the damage from the spell is doubled but the extra sneak attack damage is not doubled (as with any sneak attack).
With spell effects that allow you to make multiple attack rolls, such as the energy orb spells or the Split Ray feat from Tome and Blood, you must treat the effect like a volley -- only the first attack can be a sneak attack.
This is pretty explicit. Spells get sneak attacks if they meet the four conditions.
So, telekinesis is a volley attack (similar to scorching ray), so you get sneak attack once.
I await some RAW stating contrary to this established and well-accepted ruling on spells and sneak attack.
The problem is your implying things the game from a rules point of view doesn't care about. Attacks are judged for precision based on conditions or whether an attack roll is needed. Nothing says telekinesis is less precise than a 5 dex 5 int 24 str or rogue.
The problem is your implying things the game from a rules point of view doesn't care about. Attacks are judged for precision based on conditions or whether an attack roll is needed. Nothing says telekinesis is less precise than a 5 dex 5 int 24 str or rogue.
We must then allow a ballista to deal sneak damage, too, or a wand of fireball. You just need a rogue using it.
If you can line up all the conditions for a sneak with a ballista (30ft. range and opponent denied dex to AC) then yes, you just hit them in the jimmies with a small tree. fireball wand doesn't make an attack roll, so no sneak dmg.
In regards to ballista I have only glanced over rules for siege weapons so I cannot answer that. In case of the wand of fireball, fireball doesn't need an attack roll so you already cannot sneak attack with it unless your an arcane trickster.
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In regards to ballista I have only glanced over rules for siege weapons so I cannot answer that. In case of the wand of fireball, fireball doesn't need an attack roll so you already cannot sneak attack with it unless your an arcane trickster.
And this is where we run up against the attack roll again. Not all qualify for precision damage. The fireball obviously doesn't. How about a ballista-using rogue with sniper goggles?
I'm ready to accept an answer to the repeated FAQs on this. Flag it!
In regards to ballista I have only glanced over rules for siege weapons so I cannot answer that. In case of the wand of fireball, fireball doesn't need an attack roll so you already cannot sneak attack with it unless your an arcane trickster.And this is where we run up against the attack roll again. Not all qualify for precision damage. The fireball obviously doesn't. How about a ballista-using rogue with sniper goggles?
I'm ready to accept an answer to the repeated FAQs on this. Flag it!
Please show the rule where it says this. Please. You keep stating it, but have yet to back it up.
Mauril - based on the rules you quoted, I see where touch spells and rays can crit, but I don't see where any spell that requires an attack roll can crit. Telekenisis is neither a touch-range spell nor a ray.
In the case of Telekinesis, honestly, I don't think the spell is really sneak attacking or critting anyway. It's more than likely the improvised weapons you are attacking with.
In the case of the ballista, there is nothing in the sneak attack rules that disqualifies it from sneak attack damage. As for TK, the spell generates attack rolls. Assuming that attack rolls equal attacks, sneak attack would have to be determined for each attack.
In the case of Telekinesis, honestly, I don't think the spell is really sneak attacking or critting anyway. It's more than likely the improvised weapons you are attacking with.
So in 3.5, which the "All about ______" series was, you could sneak attack with it. But can you find a Pathfinder-based source?
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Actually, now that I think about it, it really doesn't matter. It's not a question of crits (and I just found the text that says any spell with an attack roll can crit). It's a question of sneak attack. Where does it say that a rogue casting a spell can do sneak attack with it in the first place?
siege engines are specifically called out as not being able to deal sneak attack damage.
The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
Do you see anything there that mentions a weapon or spell? I see neither. Either a rogue can't sneak attack with anything since no form of attack is mentioned, or can sneak attack with both weapons and spells as the rules do not discriminate.
I took a more careful re-read of the sneak attack rules, and it states that "the rogue's attack" can get sneak attack dice. No mention of an attack roll anywhere. So sneak attack can apply to any attack a rogue makes. This would mostly invalidate the arcane trickster's 10th Lv ability, and I have a problem with that.
In the case of Telekinesis, honestly, I don't think the spell is really sneak attacking or critting anyway. It's more than likely the improvised weapons you are attacking with.
So in 3.5, which the "All about ______" series was, you could sneak attack with it. But can you find a Pathfinder-based source?
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Actually, now that I think about it, it really doesn't matter. It's not a question of crits (and I just found the text that says any spell with an attack roll can crit). It's a question of sneak attack. Where does it say that a rogue casting a spell can do sneak attack with it in the first place?
Can you find me a place where it excludes it?
Umbral Weaver and InversionComplex stated it well. Sneak attack doesn't require weapons. It just requires an attack with two specific conditions. Tradition from 3.5 adds the stipulation that spells that sneak attack need to deal damage.
I am certain that SKR reiterated this at some point in a thread, but I couldn't find it. I've been looking all day to try to find it.