Forgive me, but I was recently inspired by warhammer 40,000.
In 40k there are certain troops that teleport or are summoned into battle. Different armies address this in different ways, but it is often delt with in a manner like this:
-You have your guy who has the power of teleportation. He can let a bunch of men onto the field.
-You take this guy, and others like him (in case he gets killed en route), you put him in a vehicle (or in PFO maybe a horse!) and you RUN him up the field as quickly as possible
-This guy drops his payload and teleports summoned creatures or teleported allies onto the field.
I think that teleportation ought to be relevent in PFO. There are just too many cool tactical uses for it.
*bump*
Goblin Squad Member
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teleportation has been discussed quite a few times. most recent off the top of my head which is probably why this topic didn't get responses. IMO for short range teleport I can see uses. Long range I believe can cause huge issues for numerous mechanics of the game. Namely differences with warhammer 40K and an MMO, would be things like the fact that perma-death isn't a factor, meaning people killed in battle should be sent a long distance away to avoid them returning to the fight instantly via a conjurer hiding just out of sight of the battlefield, otherwise wars would be more or less endless. Having them constantly poofed back to the front lines every time they die... would be HUGELY problematic for any system.
Second the transport of goods or equipment. What purpose would escorts etc... if valuble resources or equipment (equipment no matter what would be virtually imposible to prevent with a teleport system, even if you limited what people carry down to their equiped items, as people could jump back and forth with a new sword, leading a risk free quick transport of 50 swords via jumping back and forth).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Teleportation does present problems, but it is only accessible via higher level casters, and it's one of the perks of being a high level caster. Since it looks like we're going to get just as many non-adventurers as we will adventurers, and because maybe 1-in-4 players wanting to play an adventurer will play an arcane caster that can eventually teleport, I see this problem being largely moot, at least for the first couple of years after release, given the rate of leveling in this game.
A simple solution is to only allow teleporting to certain locations, like a base of operations and to high security areas. If you're worried about people respawning and teleporting back to the battlefield, this would solve that problem, as would forcing you to wait an hour or two after respawning before you can be affected by something like teleport.
Not to mention that teleport is usually target self and a certain amount of limited weight. Not that useful for transporting goods, otherwise you'd see it a lot more often in the tabletop game. I don't think the major mercantile companies or Aspis Consortium use teleportation that often.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Teleportation does present problems, but it is only accessible via higher level casters, and it's one of the perks of being a high level caster. Since it looks like we're going to get just as many non-adventurers as we will adventurers, and because maybe 1-in-4 players wanting to play an adventurer will play an arcane caster that can eventually teleport, I see this problem being largely moot, at least for the first couple of years after release, given the rate of leveling in this game.
A simple solution is to only allow teleporting to certain locations, like a base of operations and to high security areas. If you're worried about people respawning and teleporting back to the battlefield, this would solve that problem, as would forcing you to wait an hour or two after respawning before you can be affected by something like teleport.
Not to mention that teleport is usually target self and a certain amount of limited weight. Not that useful for transporting goods, otherwise you'd see it a lot more often in the tabletop game. I don't think the major mercantile companies or Aspis Consortium use teleportation that often.
Rarity is not a balancing factor, something excessively useful is never rare. If any class gets a vastly superior ability, it becomes far more common. Also depending on how spell failure or multi-archtype abilities etc... work, 3 years into the game no shortage of fighters rogues etc.. would start on wizard as their second class if the ability were that powerful.
I do agree that it could be somewhat balanced with very long cooldowns, self only, and little to no carrying capacity and not applicable shortly after death. Of course at that point, what use is there left for teleport? Virtually every use or reason people would want teleport, is in fact problematic by definition, which eventually brings us to the point, sure we can put in teleport, if we eliminate it from every forseable use, at which point we drop it's function down to unexpected abuses.
Personally what I could see working, is a short range teleport, Dimmension door as written, could be great for tactical combat as designed in P&P, with virtually no side effects provided it isn't massively spammable. Teleportation on the other hand, is problematic as written in P&P, and would have to be modified to the point it is barely recognizable, to not greatly harm the game in PFO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Teleportation does present problems, but it is only accessible via higher level casters, and it's one of the perks of being a high level caster. Since it looks like we're going to get just as many non-adventurers as we will adventurers, and because maybe 1-in-4 players wanting to play an adventurer will play an arcane caster that can eventually teleport, I see this problem being largely moot, at least for the first couple of years after release, given the rate of leveling in this game.
A simple solution is to only allow teleporting to certain locations, like a base of operations and to high security areas. If you're worried about people respawning and teleporting back to the battlefield, this would solve that problem, as would forcing you to wait an hour or two after respawning before you can be affected by something like teleport.
Not to mention that teleport is usually target self and a certain amount of limited weight. Not that useful for transporting goods, otherwise you'd see it a lot more often in the tabletop game. I don't think the major mercantile companies or Aspis Consortium use teleportation that often.
That is not at all my biggest concern.
My biggest concern is how I saw it used on Darkfall. Clan A would hold Apautan in the far Northeast corner of the map. Clan B holds Ul'Sulak in the far Southwest corner.
Clan A seiges clan B all the way from that corner. Via one of three ways. Two were direct teleport systems. One for a single player one for a group of players. The third required them to teleport between two holdings they controlled. Often they would use an allied holding or many times their own since most clans actually spread them out as much as possible for a larger portal network since that is the cheapest way to teleport.
When that siege took place Clans C,D,E, and F (Comprising over half the veterans on the sever when combine with clans A and B) would all show up and either support one side or attack both for fun/gear drops.
I don't want to see that in PFO. I don't want to see it in the form of direct teleportation OR teleporting to the nearest base of operation or high security area to cut out about nine tenths of the trip.
I don't want to see it for low levels, and I don't want to see it for high levels.
I want to see a game where there are remote areas that a company can go to hide from it's enemies. I want to see regional politics and warfare as opposed to the entire game showing up for every major battle.
This system is not possible with almost any teleportation system. I don't want to see teleportation that can move you farther than a mile of ingame distance PERIOD.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I still think the proper solution to this is to require Siege Equipment (and maybe even NPC Armies) to be moved overland at very slow rates with no possibility of teleport, and to make defensive fortifications practically unassailable unless that Siege Equipment (or those NPC Armies) are present.
At that point, it doesn't really matter too much if the Player Characters can teleport around the map because they really can't do much unless they're supported by the stuff that can't teleport.
This also creates really interesting dynamics (!) for using strategic maneuver, forward bases, strategic misdirection, etc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I guess it really depends on how big, and how long it would take to traverse the current 'world'.
I can certainly understand where Andius is coming from, but can we realistically expect a guild to organize an army/raiding party to attack a settlement/stronghold/outpost that takes 2 hours to run to?
A lot of people don't have that kind of time. And the more players your organize for that raid, the greater chance someone cannot stay to help.
I am not saying let's have teleport where it will bring them to the settlements doorstep, but to have no means to teleport at all may actually hinder the ability for guilds to conquer far away hexes in the game.
@Nihimon I actually like your idea of not being able to teleport siege equipment. But I think it's anything large, for that matter. Also no 'transports' (wagons), no horses or vehicles of any sort. It's just a certain amount of people and what they can carry on them. Very similar to the PFRPG Teleport.
And as to the comment of not needing Siege Equipment to burn down an Inn or Watchtower, you are right. But I feel that is responsibility of the owner to protect their building and not having good protection for the building(s) should be a factor of having or not having Teleport in the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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EVE has had to deal with similar issues, and there are many lessons to be learned from what they did, both good and bad. For the uninitated here's a brief rundown of how things would go. All areas are varying distances from each other, and it's important to know these distances when 'teleporting', or 'jumping' as the case may be. Not everything can teleport, and not everyone can teleport the same distance so a route would be determined using the lowest common denominator. Players would position themselves along this route and light beacons others would use to teleport from one place to the beacon. This uses resources, both regenerating and consumable. This was all well and good, but a new mechanism was added by which a single person could teleport many people a relatively short distance. The mechanism was big, it was expensive, and it took a long time to both create and train to use. It was also nigh unto invulnerable. One of these things alone was fine, but large, well-organized entities had more than one, and as such were able to project their force and influence over vast areas of the map nearly instantly and with near impunity.
Cost is never a balancing factor, if the perceived value is enough people will pay for it. Scarcity is not really a balancing factor available to a sandbox, especially if once whatever it is that enables the action cannot be easily removed.
Some ways I would see Teleportation being available and usable would be:
Require a personal single-use beacon to be placed at the target location and have that beacon removable by force.
Teleportation is limited in distance (X hex range).
Teleportation always includes the caster.
Teleportation uses both consumable and renewable resources, with the renewable resource being the primary one.
Teleportation of additional people scales the resource cost, with the physical maximum a single person can teleport being 5 additional people.
Non-player assets (siege equipment, wagons, animals) cannot be teleported.
This allows that the maximum range a group could teleport would be X * 6 hexes for an all-teleporter group, but at that maximum all 6 casters would be near useless. Teleporting an assault/invasion force would be limited in it's range or it's power. A scout of some kind would need to visit the destination(s) first to plant and guard the beacons. The teleporter would always be exposed to whatever dangers are lurking at the destination, and there would be no or little immediate escape.
There's still potential for abuse, that's the nature of the beast, there should probably be some additional limiting factors.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Require a personal single-use beacon to be placed at the target location and have that beacon removable by force.
I really like this idea, but would like to see it modestly extended so that it's possible to place a beacon using Scrying. I'm happy to have to wait 15 minutes or even an hour before I can use the beacon, and I'm hopeful that it will also be possible to Screen an area from Scrying.
This is based on the spirit of the Teleport spell, which explicitly refers to the success rate for teleporting to a place the caster has only viewed through scrying.
“Viewed once” is a place that you have seen once, possibly using magic such as scrying.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I still think the proper solution to this is to require Siege Equipment (and maybe even NPC Armies) to be moved overland at very slow rates with no possibility of teleport, and to make defensive fortifications practically unassailable unless that Siege Equipment (or those NPC Armies) are present.
At that point, it doesn't really matter too much if the Player Characters can teleport around the map because they really can't do much unless they're supported by the stuff that can't teleport.
This also creates really interesting dynamics (!) for using strategic maneuver, forward bases, strategic misdirection, etc.
I like this idea.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I still think the proper solution to this is to require Siege Equipment (and maybe even NPC Armies) to be moved overland at very slow rates with no possibility of teleport, and to make defensive fortifications practically unassailable unless that Siege Equipment (or those NPC Armies) are present.
At that point, it doesn't really matter too much if the Player Characters can teleport around the map because they really can't do much unless they're supported by the stuff that can't teleport.
This also creates really interesting dynamics (!) for using strategic maneuver, forward bases, strategic misdirection, etc.
In order for that idea to work they would need to make player involvement have a very minimal impact which isn't entirely what I would like to see.
What you are effectively saying is if you have 10 ballistas it should matter whether you have the 40 players you can bring together from your region, or 400 from all corners of the map. They only way they can really make a difference is bringing 10 more ballistas.
I don't disagree that 400 players shouldn't be all you need to guarantee victory but I do disagree that they shouldn't have a significant impact.
I also don't want my enemies to be able to teleport up to my remote little hideout and harass me all day in non-siege related ways just to be able to teleport back home at a moments notice.
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Goblin Squad Member
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On the other hand , too much ,easy fast travel , makes the world feel smaller .
I'm actually not convinced this is true. If the world feels small to me, it's because there aren't wide open spaces, or dense forests that I can "lose myself" in. The amount of time it takes me to travel from Point A to Point B halfway around the world is really irrelevant.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In order for that idea to work they would need to make player involvement have a very minimal impact which isn't entirely what I would like to see.What you are effectively saying is if you have 10 ballistas it should matter whether you have the 40 players you can bring together from your region, or 400 from all corners of the map. They only way they can really make a difference is bringing 10 more ballistas.
I don't disagree that 400 players shouldn't be all you need to guarantee victory but I do disagree that they shouldn't have a significant impact.
I also don't want my enemies to be able to teleport up to my remote little hideout and harass me all day in non-siege related ways just to be able to teleport back home at a moments notice.
This I have to completely agree with. IMO players and siege weaponry should be equally vital components.
Defensive siege weaponry, Defensive siege weaponry is also large things like balistas, mounted defenses etc... These should be able to take out and make short work of the siege weapons coming at them, but be too slow and inacurate to make much of an impact on the PC's who are rushing in to try and take them out.
Siege weaponry, Catipults, battering rams etc... Things designed to tear down the walls/bust open the gates etc... In the event that the defenders are unable to protect the anti-siege weapons, then the defenders goal should be to destroy the siege weapons ASAP, which should be possible.
And of course non-combat defenses, IE walls, gates etc... These should only be destroyable via siege weapons.
Now what teleportation does to a system like this. Attackers imidiately can port to take out the anti-siege defenses. Defenders can immidiately port to take out the defense side.
Pretty much any balancing of teleport involves completely negating player value altogether, which IMO is completely flawed, PCs should be worthless without siege weapons, but Siege weapons themselves have to be equally worthless without solid player backing.
Again I fall back to the point that I have on teleport... We agree that for it to be implimented without killing any other systems, it must be made useless for trade and useless for PVP, fairly ineffective for PVE (IE obviously aren't going to allow people to teleport into the dragons treasure horde bypassing every challenge).
The end question... what function SHOULD it have? Pretty much every use I have heard, is one that clearly has a very strong case against it, and every defense of it is to make it useless for that purpose. The question is what purpose should be allowed if it is used. IMO rather than come up with every possible abuse and patch them all re-actively, for teleport to work we should come up with what is a legitimate use, and find a way to accomplish the intended use and nothing else.
So far I can think of only 1 use of teleport that I would not consider an abuse or a destroyer of mechanics that I believe the game should have, and that use would be.
Player X wanders around wilderness and finds a dungeon 15 minutes from the nearest town. Player can set a 1 time use warp point to that dungeon enterence that can transport whatever the expected number of people to that dungeon is, once to that dungeon. Player should still have to walk back to town, to avoid dungeon enterances being used as say a hearthstone. That player can then gather a group in town, and port to the dungeon. This can't be repeatable as I don't see it as right to use for transporting loot, or worse used as an abuse by finding a dungeon near a town one intends to attack. The warp also must be lost on death for the same reason (IE you can't map a dungeon before an attack, and then give yourself an "extra life" durring the attack by warping back to said dungeon).
As much as I like in a P&P game using spells in creative and fun ways, in P&P they are creative and unique only the first time it is done, and if overused or abused the DM has to handle it, in an MMO the GM's can't have that level of leniency, as things quickly stop being creative uses when you have 10,000 people repeating them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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losing yourself is impossible if everybody keeps finding you.
imagine that secluded beach in a Greek island , the sky is blue ,the water crystal clear and the beer is cold .If only you could close your eyes ,think of this place and go there in an instant .
thats what teleport does.It gets you and everyone else there.in the same "secluded " beach .your neighbor and his fat wife and 2 brats are there too. he closed his eyes and moved there just like yourself
This presupposes there's a place like this, rather than there being a myriad of such places.
It's not the fact that I can get there in an instant that makes this world in your example feel small. It's the simple fact that your world is so small there's only one such place for people to go.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Without teleportation, player groups will spend their time exploring their local environs, finding stuff, and killing it. Or trying to take over their immediate neighbors. Either way, maximization of player interaction is there. I think teleportation is a solution searching for a problem.
If we have to have it, I'd rather it be *very* limited - perhaps it requires a high level wizard to be wholly dedicated to being the Wizard's Guild teleport hub in a hex (and the mage is lost as a player character - a sacrifice very few people will make, but somebody will).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Without teleportation, player groups will spend their time exploring their local environs, finding stuff, and killing it. Or trying to take over their immediate neighbors. Either way, maximization of player interaction is there. I think teleportation is a solution searching for a problem.
If we have to have it, I'd rather it be *very* limited - perhaps it requires a high level wizard to be wholly dedicated to being the Wizard's Guild teleport hub in a hex (and the mage is lost as a player character - a sacrifice very few people will make, but somebody will).
I also agree on the first point. Virtually every intended use anyone has brought forward, is also in the category of things that it shouldn't be used for.
The second concept there, I've said it before and I'll say it again, upfront 1 time costs are always moot points, most of the top guilds in the game would almost certainly do that example, not as their main character, but a guild leader could certainly make an alt, run it's skill training while he plays and earns on his main, then throwing the mage into the burner after the 2.5 years is spent. Assuming we are talking a permanent teleport ability, that investment could easily be split by a whole alliance (IE chipping in to use in game cash to fund the character) to turn themselves into a powerhouse late game. An alliance who doesn't do that, that intends to be a military powerhouse, is downright foolish. Now lets randomly shuffle the requirements and make them something harder. Lets say it takes 2 years worth of 24 hour days of work. A guild of 400 takes it's 24 trusted leaders, shares the account information (yes it is illegal, but not something GW can do anything about, the leader could run a proxy server on his PC so all the trusted members show up as coming from his IP address, so it is an undetectable unprovable crime), and splits the work so it is only 1 hour of work a day for each.
Or worse, if we are talking something powerful to boost a guild and grant huge advantages to international control of the games area, and only 1 does it, you now have 1 ludicriously overpowered group, making mincemeat over every new startup guild. With great overpoweredness, must come great overresponsibilityness. The only thing worse than an overpowered rediculously strong ability in a game, is an overpowered rediculously strong ability, that is only in 1 groups hands.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Onishi, I agree with your point of overpowered abilities in one (or even just a couple) group's hands.
I was thinking a more limited teleporter functionality - like hubs in a network (like in the early Elder Scroll games). So setting a hub up would allow travel to and from settlements that have teleporters, including the largest NPC towns. I wasn't thinking of any ability to project people to areas without such a teleporter. So a very fast and safe method, but very limited in scope. Groups would still fund it, some the way you describe.
But that mage turned NPC is loyal to his Guild, not to the settlement. The settlement doesn't get to control who comes through. They might want to put the portal outside their gates, or have some other system to guard against invasion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the problems that have been raised with Teleport have many reasonable solutions. I also think that Teleport is a very iconic part of the Spirit of PFRPG that, in my opinion, should be included in PFO.
I am excited to consider the problems and propose solutions. I am wary of any solution which "throws the baby out with the bath water".
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the problems that have been raised with Teleport have many reasonable solutions. I also think that Teleport is a very iconic part of the Spirit of PFRPG that, in my opinion, should be included in PFO.
I am excited to consider the problems and propose solutions. I am wary of any solution which "throws the baby out with the bath water".
Well can you start listing the intended uses of teleport that do not massively misbalance intents of large scale PVP wars or make resource transportation excessively safe.
If we are to come up with a teleportation system that is balanced, IMO we need to start with what it SHOULD be able to do, rather than a general ability and play whack a mole with what it shouldn't do until there is nothing left. The issue I believe that exists in this discussion, is we have yet to define the baby, only several different portions of bathwater. Contributing to it as well, is one mans baby is another mans bathwater.
Without a basic idea of what teleport SHOULD do, we are basically spinning our wheels here trying to remove what it shouldn't do.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well can you start listing the intended uses of teleport that do not massively misbalance intents of large scale PVP wars or make resource transportation excessively safe.
I'll gladly list the things that I think it should do to remain true to the spirit of PFRPG and to the Fantasy genre.
1. It should scale in power from a simple Blink (not Blink) that instantly teleports you somewhere in your line of sight on the order of 20 to 30 yards away, all the way up to a permanent Teleportation Circle.
2. It should be possible to teleport to a location you've only seen via scrying.
3. It should be restricted to Sorcerer and Wizard Archetypes.
The only real balancing that needs to be done is determining the proper cost to use it. I would think the cost should be a function of the number of characters being teleported and their encumbrance, with a premium being paid for encumbrance.
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Goblin Squad Member
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1. It should scale in power from a simple Blink (not Blink) that instantly teleports you somewhere in your line of sight on the order of 20 to 30 yards away, all the way up to a permanent Teleportation Circle.2. It should be possible to teleport to a location you've only seen via scrying.
3. It should be restricted to Sorcerer and Wizard Archetypes.
The only real balancing that needs to be done is determining the proper cost to use it. I would think the cost should be a function of the number of characters being teleported and their encumbrance, with a premium being paid for encumbrance.
This is just mecahnics, I am looking for the purpose, IE what people use it for. IE why is the wizard casting it. To get a group out to the harvesting area? To get a group to a dungeon? To transport resources back without risking a fight? Espionage? exploration? assassination etc...
Once we have a solid idea of what purposes are considered desirable and which ones are detrimental to the design of the game, we then can start figuring out the exact functions that are balanced and unbalanced, and what needs to be done to balance them overall.
Things like a premium for weight makes sense at first, right up until we start factoring in the huge differences in price/weight things may be. Lets say hypothetical scenerios of materials vs price.
lets say iron is worth 40 Coin/lb, we make the premium at 50 coin/lb and the issue is solved. for iron
Now mithral is 200 coin/lb, teleport is now about even value in risk/reward factor.
Now some other even more valuble resource, lets just say diamonds for the heck of it, are worth 9,000 coin/lb. Nobody would ever transport those via any means other than teleport.
What this does is make the most valuble resources gathered by the strongest groups, immune to robbery. Completely negating the entire point of heists (and it is also worth noting that the groups most likely to have the best mining abilities, will be the larger more powerful guilds, which most likely will also have the best access to wizards high enough level to cast teleportation circle).
Unless we base the cost on the likely most expensive possible transport, at which point we again have to ask the question, what particular task is it that we intend for teleportation to be used for, to ensure that it has an actual use that is within the realm of the cost that is set for it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And why shouldn't powerful groups be able to use powerful casters to protect their interests?
I don't think wizards, especially those who can cast teleport object, and especially not teleportation circle, a 9th level spell by the way, are going to be that common. And if someone decides to go into an arcane casting class after leveling up as a rogue or fighter for the sole purpose of casting teleport... good luck. How often do you hear about a 15th level fighter / 9th level wizard in any table top game?
Also, how large are these mining operations? Are we talking about hundreds of pounds of material produced an hour by a team of "NPC" workers? Teleport has strict weight limits. Just following the general guidelines of the spell as written solves all the problems.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And why shouldn't powerful groups be able to use powerful casters to protect their interests?
I don't think wizards, especially those who can cast teleport object, and especially not teleportation circle, a 9th level spell by the way, are going to be that common. And if someone decides to go into an arcane casting class after leveling up as a rogue or fighter for the sole purpose of casting teleport... good luck. How often do you hear about a 15th level fighter / 9th level wizard in any table top game?
Also, how large are these mining operations? Are we talking about hundreds of pounds of material produced an hour by a team of "NPC" workers? Teleport has strict weight limits. Just following the general guidelines of the spell as written solves all the problems.
Not common in a P&P game... people usually retire their characters long before level 20 in a tabletop game, in an MMO on the other hand a good portion of people see them through to cap. As well in P&P people have limits on what they can level up. pathfinder tabletop has 0 expectation of a game ever lasting long enough to go beyond 20 class levels. On the other hand in the MMO, people are going to play a character for as long as the game holds their interest and their character keeps advancing. There is no talk of exponential increases in taking a first level of rogue after starting wizard, so most likely we are not talking the P&P system where after you get 20th level wizard, taking the first level of fighter takes an insane amount of experience to get. We are talking 2 drastically different systems.
Other false parallels between P&P and the MMO, while we don't know the system, castings per day isn't likely to be the factor, meaning something completely different is going to balance out uses, which is most likely going to allow for more casting of spells of appropriate level than the tabletop game.
Next false parallel is the fact that resource management etc... are more or less non-existant in the tabletop game. There is no complex crafting economy, there is more or less never logistic issues of transporting goods from city X to city Y, no-one can or will play a pure crafter, and certainly not harvesters. The P&P mechanics are entirely different than the MMO mechanics on this topic for the subject to even half way come up.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Teleporting is fine don't whine that someone who spent a huge amount of time working for a goal get's to do the cool thing of being everybody's pack mule! Magic is hard to get you do great things with it it is fun everybody else just wants what Wizards do and make so live with it.
How is it hard to get exactly? No fewer PCs will chose wizards over barbarians or druids etc... and if an ability is particularly powerful that only one class gets, then that class will be the most popular class hands down
Ship diamonds whoopy! the price just crashed because some one beat you to the market in one town just go to the next and provide a service keeping prices low by accessibility.
The issue is that a wizard with teleport can reach EVERY town obviously if teleport is easily available to most larger towns and groups, the market prices will be unilateral across the board, not better in one place over another.
if there aren't strong limits in place, and again the greater issue isn't so much the speed as the safety. Banditry is going to be a viable career path for many, and the general gist I get is that high level bandits should be more motivated to attempt more advanced difficult heists on the more powerful good shipments of valuble items, and not as focused on preying on more lower, weaker players, which will be the ones with less access to things like teleport.
Teleport Circle IS high level end of the road business Wizards like that don't play for peanuts and it is a one way trip for a lot of people it is for Big things like war and shipping Increadable hordes of Cash Goods and Lootz and you should charge appropriately.
Again if you can do it you earned it I like Teleport on my terms I am not a Pack Mule!
First off there is no guarantee of what levels what is in, the bottom line is in sandbox games, most guilds will have their own structures and commands, and it is safe to assume wizards will not be in short supply. High level players will also not be in short supply eventually. Also worth noting that if one class or role has a particular use that is ludicrously powerful for a guild, wizards in that guild will be casting it on that organizations terms, or be without an organization, it's that simple really. On ones own one has massively reduced access to many of the most useful things and very little ability to do very much at all. PFO has been described over and over as a game to maximize meaningful player interaction. Which means assuming you are not likely to accomplish 1/10th as much as a stuck up, purely self centered wizard.
The mere thought that being a wizard will allow one to charge for teleports at a massive profit, is ridiculous. Organizations and groups that are powerful enough to need/want teleporting, will have dozens of wizards who will teleport them at or near costs, people who aren't part of an organization like that, will likely not have the cash to pay much, nor the resources to run an operation that is worth hiring such a wizard.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Onishi, I understand your concerns and I am quite sympathetic to them, but I don't think it's as big a problem as you are making it seem.
First, most commerce will involve wagons full of goods, not small pouches or even sacks full of goods. If I'm transporting goods that I can carry in my inventory, without having to transport them via wagon, then I already have a huge advantage.
Second, I don't think it's appropriate to require an enumerated list of acceptable uses of teleport before deciding that it should be in the game. If it works, people will figure out how to use it to their advantage. I'd rather not put it "on rails" and require it to only be used in certain politically correct ways.
As to your examples of the relative cost-benefit of teleporting Iron, Mithril, or some hypothetical Vegetanium worth 9,000! coins per pound, I really don't have a huge problem with Goblinworks simply flagging certain items as Commodities and not allowing them to be teleported. It's not an ideal solution, but it is a solution. A better solution might be to only allow equipped items to be teleported, so that you can't take anything in your inventory.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...Second, I don't think it's appropriate to require an enumerated list of acceptable uses of teleport before deciding that it should be in the game. If it works, people will figure out how to use it to their advantage. I'd rather not put it "on rails" and require it to only be used in certain politically correct ways.
I'd think that for *every* function that GW codes into the game, they need to make a list of (1) how people will use it and (2) how people might misuse it. Putting magic or psionics or technology or uber fighter attacks into a sandbox game without considering in detail how they will be used is setting the game up for failure. If abilities have to be nerfed later it will just bring tears and bad publicity.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not common in a P&P game... people usually retire their characters long before level 20 in a tabletop game, in an MMO on the other hand a good portion of people see them through to cap. As well in P&P people have limits on what they can level up. pathfinder tabletop has 0 expectation of a game ever lasting long enough to go beyond 20 class levels. On the other hand in the MMO, people are going to play a character for as long as the game holds their interest and their character keeps advancing. There is no talk of exponential increases in taking a first level of rogue after starting wizard, so most likely we are not talking the P&P system where after you get 20th level wizard, taking the first level of fighter takes an insane amount of experience to get. We are talking 2 drastically different systems.
If it's going to take two years to hit a level cap, with staggered new players over the course of two years, then the problem takes care of itself for the first several years of play. If we're talking about what can hypothetically happen three or four years after release... it's hypothetical. By that time the entire game could change dynamics. We might see 75% of the players wanting to craft and gather resources, and only 5% want to play wizards, and only 40% of those are willing to play pack mule. And then you've got the limitations of weight with whatever cooldown mechanism they're using in the game. Like I mentioned, probably not even going to be an issue, but the option to teleport important documents or incredibly rare materials should be available.
Next false parallel is the fact that resource management etc... are more or less non-existant in the tabletop game. There is no complex crafting economy, there is more or less never logistic issues of transporting goods from city X to city Y, no-one can or will play a pure crafter, and certainly not harvesters. The P&P mechanics are entirely different than the MMO mechanics on this topic for the subject to even half way come up.
I don't know what games you've played in, but I have to deal with players owning trade caravans and opening store fronts all the time in my tabletop games. Just because it isn't the norm, doesn't mean it's non-existant. They did a real good job trying to give Golarion some semblance of an active economy in the Inner Sea World Guide. The nation of Druma wants to have a word with you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why on gods green earth would I want to be Black mailed into Muleing for a guild? Just so they being me trinkets and reagents? that is Payment for service. My adventuring friends that fight with me get first dibs on any work I will do I don't jump and salute when Corporate head quarters calls not my thing. My time My game my rules no one pushes slaven for free down on me.
So I will miss out as you say on the Best the game offers in goods No dragon horns and pixy dust for me! Bull Muffins Freelancers will all ways have a place people will want things made without puting in a request to guild heads and the Polet Buero (sp)and waiting for them to wade through a list. All the good stuff ends up in an inner circle of friends any way.
That is fine to view it that way, just be aware that in that method you will likely be dealing with will in general mean you have access to the weakest least valuble resources, and the people you will be selling to will also likely be people working with the least resources, who are least likely to be able to afford paying a premium for anything, especially not for someone to use a natural class skill. A wizard expecting a huge premium for casting teleport for any noteworthy markup from any reagents or costs to cast it, will be treated the same as a barbarian who expects payment for every time he goes into a greater rage, clerics who will charge to heal you, a rogue who charges to backstab enemies in a group etc...
What do you want Everybody ploding along so some dork can have a chance at robbing them? what ever. There used to be spells to hijack teleports they could just add them in the game or magic items that do it. no big deal.What a bunch of Nerf hearding!
The idea of the game is to maximize meaningful interaction, the idea behind that is for operations to transport resources etc... to be done as groups for the purpose of having people to protect the items from ambushes. The biggest issue with this concept, is that it pushes the stronger bandits away from fighting the stronger players, by making the stronger players IMPOSSIBLE to be targeted. The end result from that is instead of stronger, more organized and dangerous bandits going for quality, instead they will be going for quanity of weaker targets. Making being new to the game a much less pleasant experience.
How exactly would the hijacking teleports work in terms of selection of who to ambush. The issue with that form of teleport, is the fact that it is instantaneous.
Second, I don't think it's appropriate to require an enumerated list of acceptable uses of teleport before deciding that it should be in the game. If it works, people will figure out how to use it to their advantage. I'd rather not put it "on rails" and require it to only be used in certain politically correct ways.
First off the list of acceptable uses isn't necessary to ensure it is in the game, it is necessary to begin deciding what factors are reasonable to balance it.
In P&P the railess spells with a general decision work, because the DM can override things and fix them as they go along, quickly and easily. Adding something without thinking of how it will be used in an MMO, where by the time something can be fixed, irreperable damage may be done to the economy, players may quit in droves etc...
Lets go to your form of teleport and ignore trade for a second, lets for the heck of it assume that teleport only moves the individual and his equipment. Is this how you want bounty hunting and assasanation to work? Basically anyone who thinks there might ever be any reason to be concerned about being attacked absolutely must be under mindblank 24/7 or be aware that the exact second he is alone, 4 wizards from the assassins guild or bounty hunter guild will pop in front of him (as they've been scrying on him waiting for the perfect moment) kill him and pop out. Dosn't sound like the complicated advanced path for assassinations or bountyhunts most people have wanted, and I'm pretty sure a good portion of people who want to be competent in those roles also would not appriciate those roles being more or less completely dominated by wizards.
One of the biggest issues in 3.5's having casters as ridiculously overpowered from about level 10 on, was the fact that there were so many spells that didn't just mimic other charaters abilities, but above and beyond exceeded them.
Rogue "OK I can pick this lock", wizard: Knock, Rogue, well I can climb this ledge to get to the next spot, wizard: Levitate etc...
Now pathfinder has balanced that to a degree, but we aren't talking tabletop here anymore, we are talking PFO. We have to be working within the constraints of an MMO developer, which means we do have to start with one simple concept. There are a whole ton of players who are out to break the game. Players who will take advantage of every weakness in the system and not care if they ruin the game for everyone else, and every mechanic added to the game, needs to account for this and the guidelines for what isn't acceptable has to be clearly defined.
Adding something under the vague terms of, it's cool and appropriate for the lore, we should throw it in first, and think of what the impact on the players is later, is a very quick and easy way to destroy a game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I still hear a whole lot of waa waa The hijack spells are cast before Teleport silly and have duration's that last hours.
Certainly, and the issue is targetting. With hideout ambushes, they have a very clear option and ability to see what is passing through your area, and to decide if you want to jump it or not. Unless teleport is not instantaneous that is going to be rather difficult. If teleport does have a travel time, than it is just a re-wording of fast travel, of which has been announced and I see no problems with.
Skilled work creating Items will all ways have access to goods of quality brought to them by those who want the items made I have seen it in countless games.
I take it you aren't mostly talking about sandbox games, actually come to think of it even in theme park games I don't recall this being an option consistantly. Back when I played WoW, no shortage of people had their crafting skills maxed, who did not have access to the items or recepies necessary to create on demand items (as a good portion of the necessary ingredients and recepies were raid drops, and raid guilds virtually never sold raid drops to people outside of their guild).
I'm pretty certain the same applies in eve's crafting. Materials and recepies for the most advanced ships and equipment are not often sold to members outside of the corp.
I in no way want or think anyone should play pack mule for money but they will. I don't think it is worth the trouble to do it.
I plan on only my team getting my time and spells.
I don't imagine any class skill as being notably lucrative other than crafting, I imagine crafting's value will also be very tied to what groups you will have connections to. The lucrativeness of crafting will rely entirely on what deals the crafter has cut with harvesters and adventurers to maximize his profit margains. A crafter isn't a lone force that magically turns money into equipment worth more than the money, a good crafter is going to need to either be an incredible businessperson, or be part of a charter/settlement with someone who is a good businessperson.
Guilds, Yes there is power in numbers and it corrupts like all government by who gets to slice and hand out the pie. They may end up with the best junk in the game and I hope they had fun doing it. But I doubt everybody gets what they need when they need it if ever.
absolutely correct, not everyone in a guild will always get what they need, but there are always items in which the only way to get them in a useful quanity, is for an organized operation done by a large group, being in a guild does not guarantee you the item, but not having ties to some large group, pretty much guarantees you won't have access.
Just like the battle between Armor and Penetrating Attacks it go's back and forth they just need to decide how to logically get through Teleports safety factor like Dead Zones no Jumping in no Running away, Teleport traps pulling you to unwelcome locations bandit ambush or Crypt of the Azi, Attacks by Astral creatures worming in the weak spots made by travel. Something Creative beyond It will ruins the game don't please!
I also agree that methods can be put in place to balance it, the issue that still remains is what the desired uses for teleport are. Once we have the desired uses, we have a reasonable gameplan to start coming up with what drawbacks to apply when when we are outside of that category.
As to Wizards being over powered by 10th level so subjective! yes wizards can do lots of tricks but not all tricks all the time. That means yes I can Levitate and match a Rogue at climbing once maybe twice
in a day but she can do it all day long when ever, and so on through all classes The most versatile at this are the Item Makers Crafter's Extraordinaire! Half price is good for business Yes?
in P&P where castings per day, that was somewhat of a factor, that particular statement isn't exactly accurate, a typical wizard has closer to 5 castings a day of spells of lower level, and that's before factoring in things like wands etc... but we are drifting off topic towards P&P. PFO while we know nothing of what the limiter of magic is, I can say that castings per day, is highly unlikely. Considering we won't be able to fastfoward the 8 hour rests away like we do in P&P, and well waiting around for 2 hours real time just isn't fun.
My suggestion to start figuring things out, is still to start with what is desirable for the spell and work from there. If all we do is play whack a mole at removing what is undesirable for the spell to be used for, we are either going to eliminate any positive use for the spell in the process, and either make the spell useless, or make it's use something undesirable that we never thought of.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Personally, I've never heard a convincing argument for teleportation being broken.
But lets look at it for a moment.
Non-Local teleportation is nothing more than an upgraded fast travel.
The limitations of fast travel are pretty well established, and the danger of fast travel is the risk of being ambushed.
Since teleportation has already been established as fast travel we can apply the same mechanics. Fast travel starts when it has been established that you are safe, path routing is calculated, travel happens. Except it happens in zero time. We also want to give teleportation the obvious perk of bypassing all the trouble you might face along the way.
But now all of the bandits are upset because they can't ambush out teleporter. That is okay because we every spell casting class the ability to cast a teleport interdiction spell and probably every trap maker the ability to make traps that do the same all at the same or earlier level. Any teleportation pathing that goes through the area of one of these interdiction spells insteed arrives at the first one it encounters. These obviously need to have durations measured in hours days or simply active until triggered in order to be useful.
But how am I to know what path teleporters are going to use when teleporting so I can set up my teleport trap? Weren't you paying attention? Teleportation uses the same pathing as normal fast travel. If that isn't enough for you oh Master Bandit Lord, here is a hint, fast travel pathing naturally gravitates towards roads as they enhance fast travel speed.
But now you can't scout the target before ambushing them. Well sure you can, the interdiction spell stops the teleporter from teleporting not springs your ambush. If the target that suddenly appears looks to dangerous don't spring your ambush.
But I don't want some clever or just lucky caster teleporting into my city/hideout/behind my defenses. Well that is a legitimate concern that is why ward spells have existed as long as magical teleportation has been an idea in fiction. You build a ward in you city to keep casters from teleporting into your city. My powerful wards could extend the range outside of your city, I imagine if you have the most powerful ward you might even cover an entire hex.
But I just want to keep enemy teleporters out I want my city I want my own teleporters to come and go freely. Well that's kind of unfair don't you think? But we can handle that too, simply build a keys to your ward, physical items that you can hand out to people you want to be able to bypass your wards that allow them to do so.
But my enemy somehow got their hands one of my ward keys and can now bypass my wards. Well that is call espionage, and an entirely different problem from teleportation and I have no sympathy for you inability to maintain control of your sensitive items.
Ok, but teleportation will destroy the economy! With all of the safeguards already in place I'm not entirely certain that teleportation will be any more disruptive than basic fast travel. If that isn't good enough, I have always thought of teleportation as a personal power, so teleportation would happen with nothing more than what the teleporter could carry, but I know there are people that want group teleportation, so I recommend play testing to find out what actually happens.
Any other questions? All I can think of is that teleportation is one of those powers that should only be usable X times/refresh. And it should not be an easy power to get. If it takes a years worth of training on only one or two classes there will not be very many teleporters.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You could wrap it up in an extended casting time, but it isn't really really teleportation if it isn't essentially instant travel. I fully expect every class to already have a variety of fast powers. A few high classes pushing it all the way to zero time at the absolute limit isn't exactly unreasonable.
Distance isn't even a huge factor as the farther you teleport the more likely you are to be interdicted, so distance is actually a self correcting issue. Non-Teleportation travel also has the advantage of you can stop before areas known to be infested by bandits and attempt to re-route around the area. Teleporters don't really have that luxury.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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The point of the delay is to allow the interdictor a chance to decide if they will intercept;
My reasoning for requiring that the interdictor make the call: Assuming that once established, an interdictor will intercept the next N teleports which are threatened:
if interdiction is cheap, then teleportation is useless, because it will always be interdicted.
If each interdiction is expensive, then interdiction is useless, because anything important enough to teleport is important enough that the porter will simply send combat groups out by teleport until they use all of the interdiction set up along that path, then send the porters. The end result is that the interdictors got a bunch of heavily armed groups with scouts dropped into the region of their hideout, and the shipment passed though knowing that it was unthreatened.
If, on the other hand, the group interdicting the teleport can see who they are bringing in and need to make a decision regarding whether or not to catch them, they will wait until the high-value group comes across and catch it. The traps will pass through unhindered.
The advantage still lies with the teleporting agents, since they determine when, by what route, and with what forces they engage. A particularly cunning tactic would be to send out a group consisting of escorts and porters either unladen or laden with cheap goods, to test the route for interdictions. An interceptor expecting this tactic can counter by letting the bait pass, and then catching the actual shipment. The counter-counter is even more obvious: Send a group out that looks exactly like bait, but with the real goods.
In short, having the interception be a player decision, rather than automatic, makes the process more interesting for both parties.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sounds like a decent solution and brings another layer of tactics into the game. One question is what would be the range of interdictors. Would it be a case of strategically positioning yourself on a trade route to interdict or able to interdict from anywhere in the general locality?
If its along traderoutes, it could be interesting to see groups of bandits fighting for the optimum interdiction spots and having people teleport past them whilst they fight!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Teleportation vs counter-teleportation is always a battle of wits. Even the set up I suggested allows an astounding degree of depth in battle of the wits game. Not that I intend to share trade secrets about how said battle of wits would play out. Realistically, my system will allow fast and easy travel within an a populated peaceful that is commonly patrolled to kick out bandits. Within enemy territory it become far less viable, and it is easy entry into hostile territory that presents the greatest degree of concern. Any area were travel was easy stays easy, any area where travel was hard stays hard. The balance is maintained.
What you suggest is closer to a fly spell spell with the ambushers able to hit the flyer with a dispel magic.
What bandits really need to worry about is bandit hunters. People set up to look like an optimal target but are built specifically to counter and destroy bandits and their hideouts. I like to call it fishing.
@mumbles It's hard to say, interdiction would probably use areas comparable to what ambushes already do. It is really something that would need to be balanced through play testing. And might need to change over time. What is good for a new server with few people might not be good for a server with a vastly larger number of people.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Yes. I think that a (dispellable) overland flight spell works exactly the way an upgrade to the default fast travel should work.
I'm not sure what the 30s delay, or allowing a decision to intercept, removes from the battle of wits, but I will believe you when you say you've thought of some aspect. (Other than timing; catch three groups, let one pass, then catch the next one won't work more than once, because you won't have time for your scout at the destination to report to you and reset the interdicts)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I didn't say it takes away from the battle of wits, it just changes the terms and makes it a different battle. I can't say that either is better just different.
The reality is that I have set up a solid framework for usable teleportation. The finer details are something that will need playtesting to determine balance. There isn't much that is one can realistically discuss concerning my ideas without some kind of testing unless a person wants to seriously refute one of my points.
Not that I expect there to be a large population of teleporters until several years into the game. The suggested rate of advancement just won't allow for large teleporting populations without a majority of players choosing to advance primarily in teleporting classes. At that point you will have a world populated primarily by high level characters and one should expect that kind of environment to be weird and have its eccentricities.
Edit: Come to think of it, there is no reason we can't have flight spells and have both kinds of battles of wits.
It seems to me that implementing teleporting in a similar manner as the regular fast-travel method would work best. Using these 'interrupters' in a similar manner as hideouts, and such.
From the blog:
Hideouts have a "threat radius" that determines how they interact with their surroundings: when a character using fast travel enters the threat radius of a hideout, the characters in the hideout can trigger an ambush—the targets drop out of fast travel in the vicinity of the hideout, and the bandits may be able to overtake them and engage them in melee combat before they can exit the area and re-enter fast travel.
I think that activating an ambush will trigger an interruption, and the option to actually engage or not is the bandits' prerogative. Regardless of whether or not my interpretation is correct, if interrupters worked in an identical fashion, it would really just be a higher-tier option. Higher cost and therefore used by higher-level bandits, but it stops people taking the higher-cost/higher-level travel option, and those people would likely have the higher-level gear. If you add overland flight in and dispel magic, it is a similar mid-tier option.