What would the composition of a quintessential adventuring party be? And how large would the group be? I know there are a lot of now-generic examples (ie. the Final Fantasy four, or the WoW DPS/Tank/Healer trinity), but I want to get the expectations of people who are currently playing Path Finder. And when I ask about 'composition,' that could mean anything from class to alignment to race--Whatever you think is relevant.
This is a bit from left field, but I'm working with a sciFi robotic setting (Mega Man, but darker), and the idea is to have a set of top-ranking, warrior robots that are themed after an adventuring party. Each is the master of their own domain, as it were. This thread is basically research for that.
But another task is to create an 'evil' version of the group. Rather than have the basic Paladin vs. AntiPaladin and Rogue vs. Ninja, I figured it'd be more fun to look at enemies that players find definitive. So what are the quintessential villains? Goblins have to be one of them, right?
WIz, Ftr, Clr, Rogue/Bard
WIz, Ftr, Clr, Rogue/Bard
That's my first impulse too. Why Fighter instead of Barbarian or Paladin?
Also, why Cleric? Is it because of the healing or because of the expected high AC?
The iconic adventuring party in 3.x was Tordek the dwarven Fighter, Jozen the human Cleric of the sun/healing god, Lidda the mischievous halfling Rogue and Mialee the creepy-looking elven Wizard. This is pretty much the platonic ideal of adventuring parties.
Pathfinder has a set of characters called the Iconics that appear in much of its art and in pregenerated groups for published adventures.
The ideal party and the most commonly seen characters are still Figher/Cleric/Rogue/Wizard, although the sorcerer Seoni is also popular because of dat ass.
If you want to check out the iconics they're all linked from the bottom of this page: http://www.pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Valeros
Iconic enemies include Liches, Dragons (duh), Drow elves, Demons, Devils, mad cultists of same, Kobolds and yes, Goblins. Goblins have been around forever but they weren't really interesting until Paizo made them goofy, charming and sinister-cute.
Good Guys:
Your question actually brought to mind several images. This image (not the joke that is typed over it) from the front of the 2nd Edition ADnD PHB has always seemed very 'quintessential' to me:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-kUL2mpklRkY/TxB8GivFpiI/AAAAAAAAAkU/Dw5r2HJabWU/s 1600/roflbot-1.jpg
Of course ... you could also always go with this party:
http://dorkandbeans.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/dndcartoon.jpg
Truth is, there is no single "quintessential" party ... and the stuff that comes from WoW is just video game optimization ... not translated well into classic ideas of a pen and paper party.
That said ... I'll try to build a somewhat 'classic' 5 person party:
1 - Burly Human Fighter, longsword and shield (male)
2 - Sneaky Halfling Rogue, short sword/dagger and sling (male)
3 - Eagle Eyed Elven Ranger, bow (female)
4 - Wizened Human Wizard, staff (male)
5 - Devout Dwarven Cleric, hammer or mace (male)
And just because I find them both inspiring and classic ... a few more images:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/alumni_20090731_2.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_0kgHgHUJSTc/TNbi-Ep5IYI/AAAAAAAAADU/RUo7bb6p2Y4/s 400/Saving+The+Best+For+Last.jpg
http://mocagh.org/dragon/dragon119.jpg
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Ok, for any successful adventuring party, you must have a Cleric, a Fighter, a Wizard, and a Rogue.
That's a load of bull.
The key to a successful adventuring party is how well you work together. Obviously the "ideal" is to cover the four major roles of the adventuring classes, but there's nothing saying you have to have those specific classes. When it comes to my party ideals, it's really all about how well each player's skills play off of one another. If the Trapper Ranger can handle the traps, who's to say you have to have a Rogue? If the Hedge Witch can keep up with the healing, you don't necessarily need a Cleric.
I have a great deal of difficulty building a favorite setup for a "good" party, but for a solid challenge for the PC's in an adventure, I've got a fairly entertaining set for recurring villains.
-The "Duelist" (NE, highly charismatic, dex/agility based melee combatant with the ability to Parry/Dodge [A LOT] be it a Magus, Bard, Rogue, Ranger, or Fighter.)
-The "Healer" (NE or LE, I'd actually like to see an evil Oracle of Life, because their mysteries/revelations don't mean they have to be "good" to get access to the mystery of healitude. Evil Clerics inevitably channel negative energy, which makes them less efficient healers.)
-The "Arcanist" (LE, Witch, Sorcerer, or Wizard, likely focused on Diabolism [The summoning/binding of Devils]. With an intimate knowledge of contracts and law, they'd be able to keep a party like this together and operating fairly smoothly without too much backstabbing going on.)
-The "Protector" (LE or NE, Fighter, Cavalier, Samurai, with a heavy loyalty to their party, be it due to true loyalty or purchased loyalty, they've got to be willing to put themselves in harm's way to keep their party alive, probably Order of the Dragon and/or with the Bodyguard feat tree.)
-The "Skill Monkey" (NE or N, Rogue, Bard, Alchemist, Monk, Ranger, Ninja, they're the one that takes care of the traps/stealing/etc, though the Duelist may also fill this roll.)
Beyond that, you can always add more, though I think that set would be a pretty well balanced party. They'd all be able to trust one another to do their jobs, they'd all work well together, and they'd have the usual bits covered. I'm not a fan of throwing CE into an evil party if you want them to work well together, nor do I think they need the big, dumb, brute (Barbarian stereotype).
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What would the composition of a quintessential adventuring party be? And how large would the group be? I know there are a lot of now-generic examples (ie. the Final Fantasy four, or the WoW DPS/Tank/Healer trinity), but I want to get the expectations of people who are currently playing Path Finder. And when I ask about 'composition,' that could mean anything from class to alignment to race--Whatever you think is relevant.
This is a bit from left field, but I'm working with a sciFi robotic setting (Mega Man, but darker), and the idea is to have a set of top-ranking, warrior robots that are themed after an adventuring party. Each is the master of their own domain, as it were. This thread is basically research for that.
But another task is to create an 'evil' version of the group. Rather than have the basic Paladin vs. AntiPaladin and Rogue vs. Ninja, I figured it'd be more fun to look at enemies that players find definitive. So what are the quintessential villains? Goblins have to be one of them, right?
I'm going with a 6 person group in homage to Baldur's Gate.
Good/Neutral Party
Paladin (Tank), Ranger (DPS/Skills), Bard (Support/DPS/Skills), Cleric (Tank/Support/Healer/Undead), Wizard (Arcane Domination), Druid (DPS/Control/Summoner).
Neutral/Evil Party
AntiPaladin (Tank/Debuffer), Ranger (DPS/Skills), Bard (Support/DPS/Skills), Cleric (Tank/Support/Healer/Undead), Wizard (Arcane Domination), Druid (DPS/Control/Summoner).
Not much difference here, but here's an overview of the two.
Good Party: The good party has a wide variety of options in virtually any situation. The majority of the party is at least 2nd tier martials, with 2 1st tier mmartials.
The Paladin exists pretty much to tank. Amazing saves, strong HP and regeneration, combined with solid damage output and disgusting damage versus evil creatures makes them the main front-liners. Let them run interference. Proficiency with bows make a good option for ranged combat. Has a good spell list including many useful spells like lesser restoration and bless weapon. Good backup healer. Later on gets some very good spells. Stuff like the grace spell makes them tactically strong as well.
The Ranger outdamages rogues and has similar skill opportunities and better saves, and doesn't require setting up the ball to pound some faces in melee. Primary scout and sneak past the lowest levels, and also provides survival and overland benefits to the party. Their spells include a lot of utility stuff as well as a surprising amount of battlefield control (the get longstrider, entangle, spike growth, stone spikes, and freedom of movement). Primarily melee, can off-tank with ease, sports good saves and HP, and can fight at range effectively.
The Bard empowers the entire party plus minions and is a good martial character with lots of utility spells. Thanks to Arcane Strike and smart ability score array, he can fight very well with both melee and ranged attacks. Most of his spells will be spent on buffing the party or himself. Can off-tank by being an avoidance tank (50% miss chances, mirror images, etc), and gets some useful spells including haste and slow. Lots of nice illusions. Has more skills than rogues (due to versatile Performance). Can even pickup Find Traps if you want, and gets a variety of useful cantrips (detect magic is a good power to keep active in a dungeon and will find most magic traps easily). Buffs the entire party which is very martial-heavy, including himself, making him more or less equivalent to a 1st tier melee and making the 1st tier melee more like a 0 tier melee. Since Arcane Strike works just as well with ranged weapons as melee, primarily spends most of his or her time tearing into enemies with a composite shortbow.
The cleric is an off tank (spend a feat for heavy armor) and if built as a proper necromancer (neutral in the good party or evil party) will have a very high Strength and moderate Wisdom. Mostly specializes in beating faces while summoning monsters, healing the party when needed, and animating meat shields like a proper cleric. I favor the liberation domain plus one other (undecided, but Strength is a darn good one since melee attacks are strength based checks). The cleric can raise or animate fallen party members, potentially bringing them back stronger than they left (mummies make damn good paladins).
The wizard is a wizard. There for arcane casting, control, and problem solving (also for passing out inherent modifiers at 13th level like they were party favors). I typically would have the wizard specialize (conjuration is a favorite but diviner is the powerplay specialization of choice). Mostly a god-wizard. Stuff like haste is very good in a party of this size and this martial heavy. At higher levels does things that wizards do (providing inherent bonuses, permanent spells, mnemonic enhancement shenanigans, simulacrums, etc) to support the party. Generally readies actions to stop enemy casters (plowing them with magic missiles, lightning bolts, wall spells, or worse).
The druid is primarily a blaster with heavy emphasis on DoTs that daze enemies and keep them locked down with dazing spell and depending on build can off-tank and DPS pretty well as well. In addition to providing fair damage that's somewhat difficult for many enemies to avoid, dazing spell (and rods of dazing spell) make this spec broken, as it can literally daze-lock countless enemies for entire combats. Good class for endurance runs because at higher levels you will usually only cast 1-2 spells per combat at the most. Due to wild shape this spec can be very mobile (flying and casting). The ability to spontaneously summon monsters is very nice for providing more meat shields and milking bardic music. Spend a feat and buy some dragonscale and a heavy shield and you've got yourself yet another great tank. If your armor is wild enhanced, your AC in animal form can be goofy making you a tier 1 tank next to the paladin, or damn hard to shoot while you're flying around the sky dropping pearls of lightning on the masses.
Literally everyone in this party can craft magic items. Virtually everyone will have Craft Wondrous Item, at least one will have Craft Magic Arms & Armor, Craft Construct, Craft Wand, Brew Potion, and Scribe Scroll (wizard gets this for free). Druid at least takes Craft Rod as soon as possible and spreads the love by making metamagic rods for the party. The Cleric might take that one holy-item making feat and turn the party's gear into holy symbols so he/she doesn't have to keep swapping gear (and might actually use a shield).
The entire party can cover multiple roles, deal with countless situations, and produce magic items, and focus fire with ranged weapons (this is particularly devastating if you have some distance between you and your enemy). Optionally the wizard could be made an Eldritch Knight easily enough (dip a level in Ranger or Barbarian for proficiency with all martial weapons) to produce yet another 3/4 HD martial caster that hits 9th level spells (trait lets you keep your 2 caster levels).
Evil Party: More or less identical to the previous party except far more aggressive. This party pretty much throws themselves head first into power and doesn't brake for anything. The (Anti)Paladin is still the spell-tank but no longer has self heals, so instead has become a powerful debuff bomber. By 9th level, aura of despair, charisma prime, and touch of corruption (bestow curse) and Intimidate allow him to completely destroy enemies by slaughtering their saving throws (-2 aura, -4 to all saves via curse, -2 shaken, possibly a -3 due to bestow curse vs ability score) before the casters nail their coffin shut with baleful polymorph, phantasmal killer, or flesh to stone. Stacks with the -7 from limited wish, meaning the anti-paladin plus the wizard can bring the target down to a -13 to their next saving throw.
As early as possible, the Antipaladin will become undead. Either a Ghast or a Mummy. Ghast is the power play here, as it grants a +6/+8 to all ability scores with Charisma prime and +4 natural armor, and provides 3 solid natural attacks based on Charisma. All out offense here, and the Charisma boost makes his saves scary. Lost class features will be recovered due to accumulated XP. Essentially, loosing 2 levels here for nice buffs (and you get 2 racial HD, so you're not behind the curve either). Most of the casters can benefit from becoming ghasts as well (it nets a +3 to +4 to save DCs) if they don't mind eating a -2 caster level (you can still reach 9th level spells, just later than usual).
In the evil party, most will wield life-drinkers in melee, which inflict 2 negative levels everytime they hit anything. Each negative level is a -1 to all checks and -5 hp, which makes this team thrive on mobbing enemies and ending them with save or dies. If a ghast ranger, paladin, cleric, and bard engage the enemy with life-drinkers, they can easily inflict 10+ negative levels on a single target each round. Assuming the target doesn't outright die from the negative levels, that's a -10 to its attacks, saves, and skills (also caster levels) which means the battle is one-sided.
The good party can still use life-drinkers but will need death ward active which means a preparation step or at last short-duration x/day items (such as armor) to prevent self-draining.
With save-bombing, the druid becomes way scarier, since every time it hits something with a bolt of lightning the enemy is dazed for 3+ rounds, which means that the martials slamming an enemy almost ensures a 3-round loss for the enemy. Also, the druid has nice spells that allow her to stun-lock golems while the party takes them apart (the party can crush an adamantine golem around 9th level).
Teamwork and problem solving. That's what it's about.
Teamwork and problem solving. That's what it's about.
I always enjoy your posts on party composition and monster tactics. This is way too caster heavy for my tastes (and a little too much undead), but I love the way they synergise with each other. Especially the anti-paladin and all of those life drinkers. Scary stuff.
I too like the five or six man party, because I like a party with a strong front line. I also like a nice balance of the core races. I often find myself trying to be the "short guy" or playing a Dwarf to play off the elf PC. I'm not saying I want a party with a token member of each race or anything, but it's just one of many little things that can add a little spark to the roleplay, as well as, my primary concern as an amateurish artist, making the party a lot more fun to draw.
I was also quite partial to the cast of That Official 4E Tie-In Comic. Did anyone else get a glimpse of that?
You want iconic? Then TV Tropes is your go-to source for iconic storytelling gambits. Check out: Iconic Evil Party and Iconic Good Party. Note how the combo is based on complementary roles and teamwork.
WIz, Ftr, Clr, Rogue/BardThat's my first impulse too. Why Fighter instead of Barbarian or Paladin?
Also, why Cleric? Is it because of the healing or because of the expected high AC?
You said quintessential. That combo was the first to come to mind. However that could also be expressed by role as opposed to class.
Melee, Arcane, Healer, Skillful
Those could be expressed in any number of combinations.
Teamwork and problem solving. That's what it's about.I always enjoy your posts on party composition and monster tactics. This is way too caster heavy for my tastes (and a little too much undead), but I love the way they synergise with each other. Especially the anti-paladin and all of those life drinkers. Scary stuff.
First, please allow me to thank you for your comments. It makes me happy to hear that you enjoy my posts. ^-^
As for the party, it's intentionally caster heavy, actually. The party is intended to be able to cover multiple roles and have options. It has 2 main melee, 3 second melee, and 1 focused caster. The party has a ton of healing (paladins, rangers, clerics, druids, and bards can all use happy sticks and do stuff like restoration and remove curse), and it has a ton of staying power (with that much casting and item creation you can divide out duties in marathon games, and you can overcome most encounters with few spells cast in most cases).
This is partially because experiences have taught me over the years that magic is your friend in D&D. Even in Baldur's Gate where Fighters were very good (amazing to hit, amazing damage, best saves in the game, etc) I still got more mileage out of caster heavy parties. Clerics made just as good tanks, sometimes better (Ranger/Clerics were the best tanks in BG II but didn't shine until later) and 2 fighter/clerics, 2 clerics, 1 thief/mage, and 1 conjurer had all my bases covered and could call up a ton of meat shields via animate dead, mage can drop stinking cloud into the hordes of undead, while the fighter/clerics wore heavy armor and shields and stood in front of the casters.
Not much has changed on that front. If anything it's gotten better for caster-heavy, because clerics aren't limited to blunt weapons (old clerics were subject to christian war-priest taboos) and thus can now use weapons like longspears or even bows (with the correct proficiency investments).
They're good for downtime too. Notice that most everyone in the party will have Craft Wondrous Item. This means that they can quickly produce large amounts of nice items quickly. Besides effectively doubling the WBL of the party (assuming you continue to gain standard treasure and such) they can gear up the party much faster. Everyone in the party needs a +1 resistance cloak, but you've only got 4 days? Everyone makes a cloak on day 1, then spends the next 3 days crafting things like Elixers (elixers of X provide a +10 competence bonus to that skill for 1 hour for around 250 gp market price, which is great if your party needs to sneak somewhere or wants to avoid being ambushed).
The second and third tier casting (bard, ranger, and paladin) are very important because if your main healer or arcanist is out of action (say your cleric is hit with a drow-poison arrow and knocked unconscious) you may need your Ranger to cast delay poison to bring your Cleric back into the action; which you more or less couldn't do without serious resource expenditure without another caster.
If anything, I felt the party was actually martial heavy. Contrary to some opinions, I see Paladins and Rangers as martials before casters. I actually see bards more as martials as well. And given Clerics and Druids both are more buff and bash, they are more like 2nd tier martials with the bard. The wizard was the only dedicated caster, though the druid makes a close second (mostly because my favorite druid built emphasizes blasting as its primary mode of operations).
Also as to the undead thing, I grew up with a D&D that was a lot less judgmental. I have official D&D books that have Good-aligned undead in them (I don't mean Deathless), and mindless undead like skeletons and zombies were all Neutral-aligned from OD&D through 3E (changed in 3.5 and has caused fights ever since). Animate dead has long been one of my favorite spells as a GM and a player. Undead are a tool that any smart party can and will utilize to do what they need, whether that need is fighting evil or raiding villages. Since Good-aligned arcanists and Neutral-aligned clerics can cast animate dead it's not difficult to gain access to even in a good-aligned party.
I'm aware not everyone has the same views, but there you go. Some of the most entertaining characters I've seen were pro-good Necromancers. On PC I saw in one of my online games was a Neutral with good-tendencies cleric of Wee Jass (a personal favorite deity of mine as well) who encountered a vampire, who was frustrated with his inability to charm, dominate, blood suck, or level drain her and her minions. She said something along the lines of "By authority of the goddess, I'm taking back the gifts you have rigorously abused." and was all like turn undead biatch.
And when I ask about 'composition,' that could mean anything from class to alignment to race--Whatever you think is relevant.
I think personality composition in a party will make a difference to the feel of a game more than class composition.
As with most things, tvtropes manages to explain it better than I possibly could. Here's a link to the quintessential adventuring party. And here's a link to their evil counterparts.
Hank, the Ranger
Eric, the Cavalier
Diana, the Acrobat
Presto, the Magician
Sheila, the Thief
Bobby, the Barbarian
Uni, the Unicorn
You sir, win. :3
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Evil party: Boys, aged 12-15.
Good Party: Paladin, Cleric, Sorcerer, Rogue
Evil Party: Paladin, Cleric, Sorcerer, Rogue (Three of these will need to add some ranks to bluff.)
Ok, for any successful adventuring party, you must have a Cleric, a Fighter, a Wizard, and a Rogue.That's a load of bull.
Nuh-uh. It's the most powerful and versatile party there is.
Nuh-uh. It's the most powerful and versatile party there is.Ok, for any successful adventuring party, you must have a Cleric, a Fighter, a Wizard, and a Rogue.That's a load of bull.
^
Who says sarcasm isn't obvious on the internet. :P
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For a good party: a group built to work well together while covering all necessary party roles.
Fighter/Paladin tank, God Wizard, Rogue, Healing Cleric
For an evil party: a group that focuses on personal power rather than synergy.
Fighter/Barbarian, Necromancer/Summoner, Inquisitor, Negative Energy Cleric/Battle Oracle.
Which category do most PFS groups most resemble...
For a good party: a group built to work well together while covering all necessary party roles.
Fighter/Paladin tank, God Wizard, Rogue, Healing Cleric
For an evil party: a group that focuses on personal power rather than synergy.
Fighter/Barbarian, Necromancer/Summoner, Inquisitor, Negative Energy Cleric/Battle Oracle.
Which category do most PFS groups most resemble...
Wait...what's the Rogue and Healing cleric for?
EVIL
ugly, unpleasent rogue, who no one likes not even other rogues. no one trusts him. Human
sadistic and cruel dwarven fighter. exile from his clan, probably wanted by others
brash half elf cleric of some foul god. desperately trying to keep his party together....until he and his god have finished with them
alluring but most cruel of all eleven sorceror, with a really nasty raven familiar. No one quite knows why she is with this group, but she proves most useful in getting others to lower their guard
Wait...what's the Rogue and Healing cleric for?For a good party: a group built to work well together while covering all necessary party roles.
Fighter/Paladin tank, God Wizard, Rogue, Healing Cleric
For an evil party: a group that focuses on personal power rather than synergy.
Fighter/Barbarian, Necromancer/Summoner, Inquisitor, Negative Energy Cleric/Battle Oracle.
Which category do most PFS groups most resemble...
They're cohorts, obviously.
They're cohorts, obviously.Wait...what's the Rogue and Healing cleric for?For a good party: a group built to work well together while covering all necessary party roles.
Fighter/Paladin tank, God Wizard, Rogue, Healing Cleric
For an evil party: a group that focuses on personal power rather than synergy.
Fighter/Barbarian, Necromancer/Summoner, Inquisitor, Negative Energy Cleric/Battle Oracle.
Which category do most PFS groups most resemble...
Oh okay, I get it. :3
I was trying to figure out why anyone would choose those over Ranger, Bard, or Badass-Cleric.
Dwarf or Half Orc Fighter
Female Elven or Half-elven Bard if you got a female player
or Male Human cleric if you don't have a single female player
Human or Elven Wizard
Halfling or Human Rogue
Altough the rogue gets less and less love, and he slowly fades away from the quintessential group. He could just aswell be a gunslinger or alchemist, or even a druid.
Cleric, druid, and 2 wizards.
For larger parties, keep adding wizards.
Cleric, druid, and 2 wizards.
For larger parties, keep adding wizards.
Eldritch Knights could add more martial to it. :3
After the quintessential party, what would the next-gen party look like? Monk, Gunslinger, Pirate, Alchemist? With a druid, maybe?
A lot of you emphasized personality over a specific class. Switching gears a bit, what are the different personality types and philosophies that the group would encompass? And if you think the TV-tropes 5-man team applies, which class plays what role?
I'm torn between looking at archetypal personality types (King, Magician, Warrior, Lover), and looking at domains of expertise (arcane magic, divine magic, combat, politics/society).