Synthesist feat stat requirement


Rules Questions


The Synthesist uses his Eidolons physical stats when combined.

So if I want to pick up the power attack feat, does my character have to have 13 str or just the Eidolon?


The way I understand it, you could take the feat, but you'd only be able to use it while merged.

Unless the merge doesn't count as a "permanent" enhancement: in which case you wouldn't be able to qualify...

Not real familiar w/Synthesists, so I'd recommend checking over it yourself. And/or check with your GM, since Rule 0 can trump RAW.


I think one of the devs said that merged stats count. I will try to find the quote, but Alitan is correct, that if you no longer qualify for a feat you lose access to it.


I believe I've seen said quote and it inspired a thread that only served to add to the confusion. I think the question you really have to ask yourself is do you plan on using Power Attack when you are not fused anyway? No? So does the answer really matter?

I understand wanting to know from an academic standpoint but when the answer is more complicated than the question there comes a point you have to be content with knowing that it shouldn't make a difference anyway.


Since the merge isn't a permanent enhancement, as the eidolon gets sent away when you sleep, are unconscious, etc., you wouldn't be able to use its stats for gaining feats. You need to meet them minimum requirement for the feat yourself. I'd, personally, think this is part of the reason they removed any feats from the eidolon itself in this archetype.


Sniggevert wrote:
Since the merge isn't a permanent enhancement, as the eidolon gets sent away when you sleep, are unconscious, etc., you wouldn't be able to use its stats for gaining feats. You need to meet them minimum requirement for the feat yourself. I'd, personally, think this is part of the reason they removed any feats from the eidolon itself in this archetype.

Here is the primary counter argument with out someone offical stepping int.

You can keep the eidolon active for 24 hours by simply choosing not to sleep. An elf can do this easily, and anyone can do this with a ring of sustenance.

So things that remain active for 24 hours are considered permanent and can be used to qualify for things.


Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
Sniggevert wrote:
Since the merge isn't a permanent enhancement, as the eidolon gets sent away when you sleep, are unconscious, etc., you wouldn't be able to use its stats for gaining feats. You need to meet them minimum requirement for the feat yourself. I'd, personally, think this is part of the reason they removed any feats from the eidolon itself in this archetype.

Here is the primary counter argument with out someone offical stepping int.

You can keep the eidolon active for 24 hours by simply choosing not to sleep. An elf can do this easily, and anyone can do this with a ring of sustenance.

So things that remain active for 24 hours are considered permanent and can be used to qualify for things.

Temporary enhancement bonuses are called out to be considered permanent after being in effect for 24 hours. The eidolon isn't granting an enhancement bonus, so it wouldn't necessarily fall under the same rule. Also, the eidolon isn't granting an enhancement at all, it's a straight overwrite of what the caster has while the eidolon is present.

A summoner could have a higher STR, DEX or CON than the eidolon, and actually end up with lower stats while the eidolon is present. Say the summoner bought a 13 STR, and took Power Attack, and the eidolon only had a 12 STR. The summoner would be limited to a 12 STR, and lose access to his feat, while he's fused. When he wasn't fused his STR would return and he'd be able to Power Attack again.


I think you should be able to. I also think a Monk should be able to qualify for feats w/ a BAB requirement using his flurry BAB and only use them while flurrying, until he obtains that level of BAB full time.


The rule of thumb is if the character can qualify for the feat for a full 24 hours the he can take it. Since a synthesist can stay fused for as long as he wants this means he can take feats even if he only qualifies for them while he is fused.


Prerequisites

Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he gains the prerequisite.

A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself. If, at a later time, he regains the lost prerequisite, he immediately regains full use of the feat that prerequisite enables.

Your character must have the indicated ability score.

IMO, synth's who want power attack need to take 13 str on their character to get it. Just having it when fused wouldn't cut it.
The bit about the bonus becoming permanent isn't applicable to the Eidolon- its only been applied to enhancement bonuses so far so that wouldn't work. (yet).

That, at least, is how I'd run it. Not like this particular class needs the bump in power anyway.

-S


The synthesist can stay fused as long as he wants but "If the summoner is unconscious, asleep, or killed, his eidolon is immediately banished." There's nothing in the archetype that says they can stay fused when the summoner is unconscious, asleep, or killed. This is in the description for the eidolon. Now if you have some means of not needing sleep then your eidolon could stay around for ever.

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Jeff Clem wrote:
The synthesist can stay fused as long as he wants but "If the summoner is unconscious, asleep, or killed, his eidolon is immediately banished." There's nothing in the archetype that says they can stay fused when the summoner is unconscious, asleep, or killed. This is in the description for the eidolon. Now if you have some means of not needing sleep then your eidolon could stay around for ever.

Elves don't need sleep. Ever. So, given that, elves could stay permanently attached to their eidolon. Since elves can do it, you can't preclude it from other races. Win. Argument over.

Scarab Sages

wraithstrike wrote:
I think one of the devs said that merged stats count. I will try to find the quote, but Alitan is correct, that if you no longer qualify for a feat you lose access to it.

Link

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Gignere wrote:
Can you use the fused physical stats to qualify for feats? Or must the synthesist use his own stats?
Just as a Str11 character wearing a belt of strength +2 bumps him to Str13 and allows him to take Power Attack, you can do this. You just couldn't use the feat without the belt/eidolon-suit.

Argument over.

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Artanthos wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
I think one of the devs said that merged stats count. I will try to find the quote, but Alitan is correct, that if you no longer qualify for a feat you lose access to it.

Link

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Gignere wrote:
Can you use the fused physical stats to qualify for feats? Or must the synthesist use his own stats?
Just as a Str11 character wearing a belt of strength +2 bumps him to Str13 and allows him to take Power Attack, you can do this. You just couldn't use the feat without the belt/eidolon-suit.
Argument over.

Yep, SKR's word is as close as a FAQ as you can get without it being an official FAQ. Sounds like a final answer to me.


@cartmanbeck: There is nothing in PF that says Elves don't sleep. Can you post a link to the statement that says "Elves don't sleep, ever"?

It says in the class that the Synthesist merely 'uses' the physical scores of the Eidelon, it does not 'gain' those scores. The Synthesist himself still has his original scores when qualifying for feats regardless of how long he wears his suit. Ability increases are enhancements to the characters actual scores.

He is just wearing living armor that has physical scores, his actual scores are not being enhanced and he himself does not actually gain them.

I respect SKR but I would actually rule otherwise in my games until a FAQ/Errata were released.

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Quori wrote:

@cartmanbeck: There is nothing in PF that says Elves don't sleep. Can you post a link to the statement that says "Elves don't sleep, ever"?

It says in the class that the Synthesist merely 'uses' the physical scores of the Eidelon, it does not 'gain' those scores. The Synthesist himself still has his original scores when qualifying for feats regardless of how long he wears his suit. Ability increases are enhancements to the characters actual scores.

He is just wearing living armor that has physical scores, his actual scores are not being enhanced and he himself does not actually gain them.

I respect SKR but I would actually rule otherwise in my games until a FAQ/Errata were released.

You're right, Pathfinder removed the "elves don't need to sleep" rule that was in 3.5. I'm shocked I never noticed this before. I guess since they're immune to magic sleep effects I assumed they also didn't need sleep. From poking around in forums it sounds like they did this so that sleep being necessary or not is based solely on your own campaign setting. I'd like to know whether Golarion elves sleep or not, though.

Edit: From the Elves of Golarion book:

Sleep
Though elves are immune to magical sleep effects, the
idea that they never rest is a myth. Instead, though
they do not fall unconscious the way other humanoids
do, elves may enter a deep trance that has the same
refreshing effect on the mind as human sleep
. An elf
only needs to meditate in this fashion for 4 hours per
day, though some prefer longer periods. During this rest,
an elf performs habitual mental exercises, reviews old
memories, allows his intuition to seek enlightenment,
and so on. Some mischievous elves enjoy perpetuating
the myth that their kind is always awake and elven towns
have no beds; the truth is that while some elves prefer
to meditate in a chair or on a couch, others enjoy the
comfort of an actual bed.

So, at least in Golarion (where Pathfinder Society Exists), elves don't sleep. They enter a trance, but don't fall unconscious.

Web Product Manager

Removed a few posts. Please try to be courteous to other posters.

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Chris Lambertz wrote:
Removed a few posts. Please try to be courteous to other posters.

I always hate it when you guys do this because now I'm so curious about what was said!! :-P

Anyhow, thanks for keeping it kosher.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Quori wrote:

@cartmanbeck: There is nothing in PF that says Elves don't sleep. Can you post a link to the statement that says "Elves don't sleep, ever"?

It says in the class that the Synthesist merely 'uses' the physical scores of the Eidelon, it does not 'gain' those scores. The Synthesist himself still has his original scores when qualifying for feats regardless of how long he wears his suit. Ability increases are enhancements to the characters actual scores.

He is just wearing living armor that has physical scores, his actual scores are not being enhanced and he himself does not actually gain them.

I respect SKR but I would actually rule otherwise in my games until a FAQ/Errata were released.

Here is why I think you SHOULD be able to take the feat. Here's how it's written:

"While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon’s physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution),..."

The way I read this, the eidolon's physical scores REPLACE the summoner's while he's fused. There's no temporary bonus, no permanent bonus, etc. They're completely replaced. So, why couldn't the summoner choose his feat while the eidolon is summoned? Especially if he stays fused to the eidolon for a long period of time (all day, even more than 24 hours, etc). This seems even MORE concrete than the permanent bonus stuff.

Personally, as soon as SKR says something is true, I go with it. If you need to wait for it to be an official FAQ, you'll probably be waiting a long time, cuz they only do those every few months.


I know, I respect everyone's interpretation. I just view the ability differently on my perception of the rules.

I respect SKR, but I disagree with him. It may never be FAQ'd/Errata'd and I'm o.k. with it.

Also, I know how you feel about the elf thing, it's always been a little unclear over the editions with changes.

Scarab Sages

Quori wrote:

I know, I respect everyone's interpretation. I just view the ability differently on my perception of the rules.

I respect SKR, but I disagree with him. It may never be FAQ'd/Errata'd and I'm o.k. with it.

Also, I know how you feel about the elf thing, it's always been a little unclear over the editions with changes.

You can impose any house rule you wish at a home game.


Elven Reverie has been a staple of D&D since at least second edition fwiw & as far as my recollection goes back.

As far as the topic, I see no issue with it as for all intents & purposes a Fused Eidolon is essentially the Summoner's body as a Synthesist who is awake & does not have their Eidolon out is as useful as a Warrior with his hands behind his back & 1 leg held up, humorous to watch but not a practical help for much.


I've never been fond of that reverie thing, personally (unless you're actually playing in Middle Earth).

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