I've barely been following this thread... But does this mean a Monk can enchant a Gauntlet and use it to Flurry with...?
I've barely been following this thread... But does this mean a Monk can enchant a Gauntlet and use it to Flurry with...?
It's debatable, but RAW says a gauntlet is an unarmed strike, and gauntlets can be enchanted as weapons. Since it's an unarmed strike, Monks can use gauntlets to enhance their unarmed strike.
The RAI, however, is that the Development team only wants Monks to be able to enhance their unarmed strike via the Amulet of Mighty Fist. Since the gauntlet circumvents the AoMF, the RAI is that gauntlets can't be used by Monks.
So it's up to you/your GM. If you/your GM is fine with it, then yes, the Monk can use gauntlets. If it's PFS, then no, Monks can't use gauntlets.
Its been a while since we were told Paizo was working on an answer, right...?
Yes, and they are waiting until the Cons are out of the way before they go to town on it, so don't hold your breath just yet.
And by Cons, do you mean GenCon ending? Because that's the only important convention besides PaizoCon, which I'll never go to due to being on the other side of the country most likely.
And by Cons, do you mean GenCon ending? Because that's the only important convention besides PaizoCon, which I'll never go to due to being on the other side of the country most likely.
As far as I know, they mean GenCon. They've mentioned that all decisions are being held until after PaizoCon and GenCon are over, as they are two of the biggest events of the year for Paizo, and it sucks a lot out of the employees.
It will be interesting to see.
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The Magic Item Compendium was one of my favorite 3.5 books, so I'm really looking forward to Ultimate Equipment, and not just for my vested interest in the Monk.
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The Magic Item Compendium was one of my favorite 3.5 books, so I'm really looking forward to Ultimate Equipment, and not just for my vested interest in the Monk.
Agreed. And given how pleasantly surprised I was by the race guide, my optimism level is way, way up.
And in the Devs defense, that book more than any other than perhaps core needs full attention to avoid problems.
My biggest wish for the UE is that I can finally figure out how a scorpion whip works.
Dotting.
Dotting.
You've posted in this thread before... several times in fact...
But it didn't show up when I focused the forums.
MA
The Forum Focus thing does that all the time. There have been times when threads I posted in 5 minutes ago, no longer show up in the focus, and I have to go back and repost in the thread.
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And by Cons, do you mean GenCon ending? Because that's the only important convention besides PaizoCon, which I'll never go to due to being on the other side of the country most likely.
You forget Dragon Con, which is labor day weekend. Dragon Con is as big as Gen Con these days and definitely counts as a major and important event.
Just Sayin.
With Zen-like serenity we shall have patience.
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Medieval Europe plus polytheism and magic is hardly medieval Europe.
Actually, you had the Norse pantheon, and the Celtic spirits. Probably a few others too, but I don't know much about those.
As for monks, I don't dislike them. I dislike the fact that you have to be Lawful and pious to be good at unarmed combat.
Then again, imagine a country that trains it soldiers in monasteries. Whole armies comprised of monks! It would be fantastic.
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Medieval Europe plus polytheism and magic is hardly medieval Europe.Actually, you had the Norse pantheon, and the Celtic spirits. Probably a few others too, but I don't know much about those.
As for monks, I don't dislike them. I dislike the fact that you have to be Lawful and pious to be good at unarmed combat.
Then again, imagine a country that trains it soldiers in monasteries. Whole armies comprised of monks! It would be fantastic.
Actually many medieval soldiers WERE trained in monasteries by monks (the monks being former solders themselves)...
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I see how you can come to that conclusion, but I believe that line in the Unarmed Strikes section of the monk description is referring to spells like greater magic fang being applicable to unarmed strikes. I find it highly unlikely that unarmed strikes were intended to be left out of haste entirely. That is just rather arbitrary. But then debating RAI is always murky.Except that they cannot legally make unarmed strikes via haste. Haste does not enhance or improve a weapon or natural attack. They cannot legally as in within the rules make an extra attack via haste with an unarmed strike. With a kama, sure, but then you need to split your GMW between unarmed or kama, and you're stuck dealing 1d6 damage instead of enjoying your class feature.
I'm not really advocating that monks shouldn't be able to. In fact, I think it's kind of sad. But RAW, they can't. Since the one thing we all share online while discussing the classes is the RAW, I tend to stick to it as closely as possible when I'm examining, critiquing, and commenting on the classes.
Incidentally, if you house ruled it to allow monks to get the extra attack via haste, the monk still doesn't catch the ranger in damage per round, but it does at least make it a little less embarrassing.
I realize this is about 2 months old, but I really had to jump in here. Haste affects the person, not the weapon. Haste does not magically make the weapon +1 more AND hit faster. Haste makes the person able to hit faster. It doesn't matter what is in the person's hand when they go to hit. It matters that the person has been affected by a haste effect (spell, boots, speed weapon, etc). This is no different than Bard song. The Bard is not giving a morale boost to the sword when he uses Inspire Courage. The Bard is giving a morale boost to the person and the person can do better at hitting.
Let's go to the PFSRD:
Haste: The transmuted creatures move and act more quickly than normal. This extra speed has several effects.
When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with one natural or manufactured weapon. The attack is made using the creature's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a speed weapon, nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can't use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.)
A hasted creature gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +1 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves. Any condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses.
Bold added. So that is the creature that is affected, not his weapons. The ranger doesn't get an extra attack because his weapon was affected. The ranger gets the extra attack because the ranger was affected. How is it you change the weapon used (bow, sword, club, unarmed strike) that suddenly haste no longer affects a guy it would otherwise affect? Equally, if unarmed strike for a monk is both natural and manufactured, how is it that haste that affects both natural and manufactured doesn't affect the monk's unarmed strike?
Just sayin'.
Here's the thing. Unarmed strikes are neither natural, nor manufactured weapons. I say they aren't natural, because unarmed strikes are not valid subjects for the Improved Natural Attack feat. INA applies to every other attack form out there that involves the body parts of a creature, but not unarmed strikes.
Unamred Strikes are also not a valid choice for spells like Masterwork Transformation, and in fact, I believe, per RAW, anyone who isn't a Monk, can't have Magic Weapon or Magic Fang cast on their unarmed strike. Unles you're a Monk.
Now the Monks Unarmed Strike feature says:
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
A Hasted creature gets an extra attack with a manufactured or natural weapon, but this isn't an enhancement or improvement of the weapon itself therefore, Monks don't get an extra attack with Unarmed Strikes because they are neither natural, nor manufactured.
That's the RAW dilemma that we've encountered. Now if a GM didn't allow my Monk to get an extra attack from Haste, I'd leave the ****ing table and not play with him because that's just being a dick.
I don't think anyone is going to throw a hissy fit if we allow a Monk to gain an extra attack from Haste in an online discussion either involving RAW.
Unarmed strikes are natural attacks, but Improved Natural Attack specifically has a clause that bars them.
Benefit: Choose one of the creature's natural attack forms (not an unarmed strike).
The monk has that clause to allow things that normally only affect weapons to also affect unarmed strikes.
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Here's the thing. Unarmed strikes are neither natural, nor manufactured weapons. I say they aren't natural, because unarmed strikes are not valid subjects for the Improved Natural Attack feat. INA applies to every other attack form out there that involves the body parts of a creature, but not unarmed strikes.
Unamred Strikes are also not a valid choice for spells like Masterwork Transformation, and in fact, I believe, per RAW, anyone who isn't a Monk, can't have Magic Weapon or Magic Fang cast on their unarmed strike. Unles you're a Monk.
Now the Monks Unarmed Strike feature says:
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.A Hasted creature gets an extra attack with a manufactured or natural weapon, but this isn't an enhancement or improvement of the weapon itself therefore, Monks don't get an extra attack with Unarmed Strikes because they are neither natural, nor manufactured.
That's the RAW dilemma that we've encountered. Now if a GM didn't allow my Monk to get an extra attack from Haste, I'd leave the ****ing table and not play with him because that's just being a dick.
I don't think anyone is going to throw a hissy fit if we allow a Monk to gain an extra attack from Haste in an online discussion either involving RAW.
So, if I understand this correctly, the monk uses a temple sword and flurrys with it, then haste is 100% legal RAW. The monk uses shuriken, same. The monk somehow grows claws and gets that feat what lets you use your natural weapons as unarmed attacks, then he'd be 100% RAW. But because the monk's weapons are not really natural attacks? My understanding was strikes were natural attacks.
They can count as either natural attacks or as manufactured weapons. It's sort of a grey area that the RAW didn't quite cover, but the RAI was pretty obvious.
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Monks do okay as mage killers, as long as the mage in question isn't (a) invisible, (b) displaced, (c) flying, (d) 'morphed into a dragon or fire giant or elder elemental, (e) surrounded by a barrier of flames that harms you every times you attack, or (f) all of the above at once.
Other than that, yeah, they are good in that role.
MA
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Or in other words, they are no worse as mage-killers than other melee classes, because ALL of them need to get the drop on the mage to stand a chance, assuming the mage is not an idiot. Fact is, the best mage-killer is...another mage.
Some melee classes do have a better chance than others, even if it is not that much better depending on how the caster is played. If the "mage" is a druid or cleric then you might get into melee and wish you hadn't.
Moral of the story-Don't let the ones that are decent in combat get buffed if you can help it.
Unarmed strikes are natural attacks, but Improved Natural Attack specifically has a clause that bars them.
Benefit: Choose one of the creature's natural attack forms (not an unarmed strike).The monk has that clause to allow things that normally only affect weapons to also affect unarmed strikes.
Unarmed Strikes are not a Natural Weapon, a Natural Attack or a Manufactured Weapon, but they are always considered a Light Weapon.
An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike. Unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons (see Combat). The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls.
If you go to the combat section, in every instance, Natural Weapons, Natural Attacks and Unarmed Strikes are considered different.
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes...
You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon.
Universal Monster Rules - Natural Attacks also does not list Unarmed Strikes as a Natural Attack. It also has this interesting little line:
Some creatures do not have natural attacks. These creatures can make unarmed strikes just like humans do. See Table: Natural Attacks by Size for typical damage values for natural attacks by creature size.
In all places in the rules that I can find, Unarmed Strikes are separate from Natural Attacks, Natural Weapons and Manufactured Weapons. Therefore, since Unarmed Strikes are in a category all on their own, they do not, per RAW, gain an extra attack when Hasted because Haste specifically calls out Manufactured or Natural Weapons.
It's a stupid RAW Rule, but it is one none-the-less. I will never uphold that ruling. Ever. Even if I were running a PFS game, and a Venture Captain told me I had to, I'd tell him to F-off. It's a stupid Rule and one that I think was completely unintentional. I do not believe it was the RAI to specifically exclude Unarmed Strikes as being able to gain an additional attack from Haste.
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Unarmed strikes are natural attacks, but Improved Natural Attack specifically has a clause that bars them.
Benefit: Choose one of the creature's natural attack forms (not an unarmed strike).The monk has that clause to allow things that normally only affect weapons to also affect unarmed strikes.Unarmed Strikes are not a Natural Weapon, a Natural Attack or a Manufactured Weapon, but they are always considered a Light Weapon.
An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike. Unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons (see Combat). The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls.If you go to the combat section, in every instance, Natural Weapons, Natural Attacks and Unarmed Strikes are considered different.
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes...You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon.Universal Monster Rules - Natural Attacks also does not list Unarmed Strikes as a Natural Attack. It also has this interesting little line:
Some creatures do not have natural attacks. These creatures can make unarmed strikes just like humans do. See Table: Natural Attacks by Size for typical damage values for natural attacks by creature size.In all places in the rules that I can find, Unarmed Strikes are...
Stop using rules quotes to prove me wrong. ;)
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Stop using rules quotes to prove me wrong. ;)
Oh, right, sorry, this is Politics. We make our decisions and facts up on the spot with no actual backing or proof to support our claims.
:D