When you perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver.
The developers have said, time and again, that weapon enhancement bonuses apply to combat manevuers when using that weapon to perform a combat maneuver.
So, if you have a +3 flail, you get a +3 bonus on all trip and disarm maneuvers.
Ergo, if you are a monk and are wearing a +3 amulet of mighty fists, you get a +3 bonus on disarm, sunder, and trip maneuvers when using unarmed strikes (i.e., you weapon) to perform these maneuvers.
Grapple is a combat maneuver, which is normally performed unarmed; otherwise there would be not mention of a penalty in grapple for not having two free hands. It is manifestly an attack (albeit a special one), since combat maneuvers force you to make an attack roll. Question: if you are using a +3 man-catcher, would you not allow a +3 bonus on grapple checks? I submit that you would, because the weapon used to perform the attacks confers that bonus. For an unarmed grapple, the weapon is your unarmed attacks. Hence, you would a +3 on the grapple check if you were wearing a +3 amulet of mighty fists. Now, if you had a +1 ghost touch amulet of mighty fists, that means you would both get a +1 bonus on checks to grapple AND be able to grapple incorporeal creatures.
Where am I wrong?
Master Arminas
Doing something unarmed does not make it an unarmed attack. An unarmed attack is very specific things. It is not something than you can apply to any combat maneuver you want it to apply to just because your hands are free.
Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:
Attacks of Opportunity: Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before your attack. An unarmed attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes, nor does it provoke an attack of opportunity from an unarmed foe.
An unarmed character can't take attacks of opportunity (but see “Armed” Unarmed Attacks, below).
“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character's or creature's unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).
Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity).
Unarmed Strike Damage: An unarmed strike from a Medium character deals 1d3 points of bludgeoning damage (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). A Small character's unarmed strike deals 1d2 points of bludgeoning damage, while a Large character's unarmed strike deals 1d4 points of bludgeoning damage. All damage from unarmed strikes is nonlethal damage. Unarmed strikes count as light weapons (for purposes of two-weapon attack penalties and so on).
Dealing Lethal Damage: You can specify that your unarmed strike will deal lethal damage before you make your attack roll, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll. If you have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, you can deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike without taking a penalty on the attack roll.
By the above unarmed strikes count as unarmed attacks. Grapple is not mentioned, and neither are the other combat maneuvers.
When you perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver.The developers have said, time and again, that weapon enhancement bonuses apply to combat manevuers when using that weapon to perform a combat maneuver.
So, if you have a +3 flail, you get a +3 bonus on all trip and disarm maneuvers.
Ergo, if you are a monk and are wearing a +3 amulet of mighty fists, you get a +3 bonus on disarm, sunder, and trip maneuvers when using unarmed strikes (i.e., you weapon) to perform these maneuvers.
Grapple is a combat maneuver, which is normally performed unarmed; otherwise there would be not mention of a penalty in grapple for not having two free hands. It is manifestly an attack (albeit a special one), since combat maneuvers force you to make an attack roll. Question: if you are using a +3 man-catcher, would you not allow a +3 bonus on grapple checks? I submit that you would, because the weapon used to perform the attacks confers that bonus. For an unarmed grapple, the weapon is your unarmed attacks. Hence, you would a +3 on the grapple check if you were wearing a +3 amulet of mighty fists. Now, if you had a +1 ghost touch amulet of mighty fists, that means you would both get a +1 bonus on checks to grapple AND be able to grapple incorporeal creatures.
Where am I wrong?
Master Arminas
Honestly, I agree with you Master Arminas, and I think several have expressed this same view point, but I don't think, by RAW, it works.
The Developers have also mentioned on several occasions, Trip, Disarm and Sunder are normally the only maneuvers that employ weapons. That means, even though you have to have two hands free or take a penalty for a Grapple, the Grapple is not conducted via Unarmed Attacks. Otherwise, Grapple would also be in that list as a PC must almost always use an Unarmed Attack to make a Grapple.
Since the Developers don't consider Grapple to be normally employed via a weapon (Unarmed Attack), I don't think anything that adds to Unarmed Attacks, adds to Grapple, per RAW.
But, I houserule it to be that way.
I did find this though.
Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon (natural weapons and unarmed strikes are considered weapons for this purpose) to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses (enhancement bonuses, feats such as Weapon Focus, fighter weapon training, and so on) apply to the roll.
So it seems bonuses to unarmed strikes apply to these three, but not to grapples.
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So, if you have an enchanted +3 mancatcher and use it in a grapple, you don't get to add the bonus to your grapple check?
Master Arminas
So, if you have an enchanted +3 mancatcher and use it in a grapple, you don't get to add the bonus to your grapple check?
Master Arminas
Normally, only Disarm, Trip, and Sunder attempts use weapons. The Mancatcher is a weapon that is specifically able to make Grapple checks, so a +3 Mancatcher would enhance your Grapple check, if used to make the Grapple.
For nearly all other situations, Grapple is almost always made by physically grabbing something with your hands, tentacles, mouth, claws etc. All of those are considered weapons, yet Grapple isn't considered to be a 'weapon maneuver' like Disarm, Trip and Sunder are.
I did find this though.
Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon (natural weapons and unarmed strikes are considered weapons for this purpose) to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses (enhancement bonuses, feats such as Weapon Focus, fighter weapon training, and so on) apply to the roll.So it seems bonuses to unarmed strikes apply to these three, but not to grapples.
I bolded normally because it implies, at the least, that there are exceptions in which weapons can apply to other (unnamed) combat maneuvers.
Master Arminas
I did find this though.
Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon (natural weapons and unarmed strikes are considered weapons for this purpose) to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses (enhancement bonuses, feats such as Weapon Focus, fighter weapon training, and so on) apply to the roll.So it seems bonuses to unarmed strikes apply to these three, but not to grapples.I bolded normally because it implies, at the least, that there are exceptions in which weapons can apply to other (unnamed) combat maneuvers.
Master Arminas
I guess it could apply to the mancatcher, but not for unarmed attacks/strikes since the maneuvers that are affected by unarmed strikes are specifically mentioned.
New Thread on the Grapple/Enhancement issue.
I was in the new thread and did not even know it.
Back to monks, and barbarians.
Have any normal(not corner cases)* been pointed out that give the monk an advantage**.
*A corner case is something that you can not expect to have to deal with over the course of an entire campaign and/or something so rare that people don't bother to prep for it, when building a character.
**Something that most people consider important. As an example being immune to poison/disease, and having a fort save so high that you fail on a nat 1 are basically a wash. Even if you fail the first save you are likely to make the rest of them, even if they require more than one save to get rid of.
edit:Are there any normal situations where the monk can have an edge? Do these occur enough to make someone want to choose a monk?
I was in the new thread and did not even know it.
Back to monks, and barbarians.
Have any normal(not corner cases)* been pointed out that give the monk an advantage**.
*A corner case is something that you can not expect to have to deal with over the course of an entire campaign and/or something so rare that people don't bother to prep for it, when building a character.
**Something that most people consider important. As an example being immune to poison/disease, and having a fort save so high that you fail on a nat 1 are basically a wash. Even if you fail the first save you are likely to make the rest of them, even if they require more than one save to get rid of.
edit:Are there any normal situations where the monk can have an edge? Do these occur enough to make someone want to choose a monk?
There's also the issue that anyone can use fairly inexpensive magic items to get immunity to both poison and disease, which makes those useful features in terms of saving money, and as flavorful abilities, but not exceptionally amazing in the long run. For example, Rangers can craft an item that grants immunity to both poison and disease for 19,125 gp; or outright purchase one for about 38,250 gp. No custom items used, only the standard +50% cost for combining existing magic items.
Now when you consider that is about the cost of a single +4 weapon, and can be crafted yourself at half price with Craft Wondrous Item, it it's not a bad deal. You can be immune to both poison and disease with a little preparation; and that's before you consider that there are potions that can get you cured or outright immune to effects for pretty cheap (a potion of delay poison is 50 gp).
Now the monk gets this for free, but the monk also has to pay an ungodly amount of gold to get a weapon. A +3 amulet of mighty fists costs 45,000 gp (about 12,000 gp more than the necklace). For the price of a +5 amulet of mighty fists, the competitor could be sporting a periapt of proof against disease and poison (38,250 gp), and an arsenal of +3 and +2 weapons (+3 main weapon, 32,000 gp, and about 8 +2 weapons of various uses).
So back to the subjects of the monk and barbarian vs X!
Two things have been asked for, a dragon and minions.
For minions I first chose a nice easy option: a trio of stone giants. Against either character they didn't do well.
Ciretose's Dwarf Monk
AC22 gives Ciretose's monk a chance to get in and flurry without much fear of retaliation, as they can barely come close to his AC of 35 with their highest attack at +16.
+19/+19/+14/+14/+9, he can blow a ki-point for an extra attack and use Power Attack for 2d8+14 even! So he is at +16/+16/+16/+11/+11/+6 hits 75%/75%/75%/50%/50%/25% = 350% hits at 23 average. DPR = (3.5x23)x1.05 = 84.525. He polishes off the giants in four rounds at the cost of three ki points, in which time they might get one or two hits in on him. Each giant has 10%/5% chance of hitting, so mean damage is (.15x23)x1.05 = 3.6225 damage per giant per round. depending on initiative, that could be up to nine giant-rounds for, gosh, 32.6025 damage.
His disarm and stun can work on these creatures - but their chances of hitting him are so low, he's probably as well of just beating them down.
Grokko
If Grokko can be bothered to rage, he'll hammer them. +24/+15/+10 (2d6+40/17-20/x2) against AC22 give him 95%/70%/45% for 210% at 47 average damage. DPR = (2.1x47)x1.2 = 118.44 - so he will kill one stone giant per round.
However, each stone giant has a significant (if small) chance of hitting him every turn: AC31 vs +16/+11 = 30%/5% = 35% for DPR (.35x21)x1.05 = 7.7175 so if the giants win initiative or if he has to close, they may get six giant-rounds of attacks (three on round 1, two on round two, one on round three) for 46.305 damage.
He could burn ki on AC instead, but then he uses more ki. He could spring attack, but the stone giants are effective with missile weapons, and it just takes him longer to kill them all.
Icandu
Icandu cake-walks them - especially with the agile amulet discussed above. With his Crane Style he reduces his attack chances to +20/+20/+15/+15/+10, however he makes himself effectively immune to their damage: AC37 and deflecting one attack per round automatically, their chances of hitting him twice in one round are 1%, so his low hit points don't even come into it.
Against them, he has 95%/95%/70%/70%/45% = 3.75 hits per round. DPR = (3.75x17)x1.1 = 70.125 DPR - the lowest of the three, but who cares because he isn't expending ki or taking damage. It could take him five rounds to take care of all three giants - perhaps less because if any do 'hit' him, he gets a riposte. In all that time there is a 5% chance of him taking any damage at all.
Icandu can also use his maneuvers and stunning fist, but given that the giants cannot hurt him, is there any point? He could use spring attack but it just takes him longer to take them all down.
Conclusion
So Grokko is the choice if you want a fast take-down, although he expends resources. The dwarf can bring them down in four rounds, but it costs him resources also. Icandu takes the longest, but loses no resources in the action.
I'll do the dragon tomorrow.
Akhlut
A dorsal fin rises up from the back of this immense black-and-white-furred, wolf-like beast.
Akhlut
CR 13
XP 25,600
N Huge magical beast (cold, shapechanger)
Init +6; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent, snow vision; Perception +14
DEFENSE
AC 30, touch 11, flat-footed 27 (+2 Dex, +1 dodge, +19 natural, -2 size)
hp 189 (18d10+90)
Fort +16, Ref +13, Will +10
DR 15/magic; Immune cold
Weaknesses vulnerability to fire
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft., swim 60 ft.
Melee bite +27 (4d8+15/15-20 plus 4d6 cold and grab)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks savage bite, shore storming, swallow whole (2d8+15 bludgeoning damage plus 4d6 cold, AC 19, 18 hp)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 18th; concentration +16)
1/day—control weather (windy or cold weather only)
STATISTICS
Str 31, Dex 15, Con 20, Int 4, Wis 15, Cha 6
Base Atk +18; CMB +30 (+34 grapple); CMD 43 (47 vs. trip)
Feats Dodge, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Initiative, Improved Vital Strike, Iron Will, Power Attack, Skill Focus (Stealth), Vital Strike, Weapon Focus (bite)
Skills Acrobatics +8 (+12 when jumping), Perception +14, Stealth +16 (+28 in snow), Swim +18; Racial Modifiers +4 Perception, +12 Stealth in snow
SQ change shape (orca; beast shape III), hold breath, snow walking
Languages Aquan (cannot speak)
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Savage Bite (Ex)
An akhlut's bite threatens a critical hit on a roll of 18-20.
Shore Storming (Ex)
An akhlut automatically transforms into an orca whenever it is fully immersed in water, losing its legs and fur. Likewise, when an akhlut emerges from the water, it automatically transforms into its wolf-orca hybrid form. If an akhlut moves from water to land (or vice versa) on the round before initiating combat, it gains a +8 bonus on its initiative check. This initial attack resolves as a charge. An akhlut has the same statistics in both forms.
Snow Vision (Ex)
An akhlut can see perfectly well in snowy conditions, and does not take any penalties on Perception checks while in snowy weather.
Snow Walking (Su)
An akhlut can walk on snow or thin sheets of ice as though affected by water walk. It only leaves a trail on such surfaces when it wants to.
Pre Combat, Create a blizzard w/ SLA for several miles (2 or 3 is plenty). giving it concealment and everyone else difficult terrain monster isn't screwed by terrain and has a 15 wis. which supersedes it's 4 int. making this tactic not so out of character for tougher prey.
Round 1. Kite foes with superior speed as you use improved vital striking power attacking bite at +22 for 12d8+30+4d6 (AVG 98 per hit, not factoring crits, which have a 30% chance to threaten and possibly add an additional 62 average damage)
Round 2 and after, Repeat round 1 till foe dies.
** spoiler omitted **...
Make note, the AC of the Akhlut is incorret. It should be 30, 11, 27.
Dabbler, i would reccomend taking crane style out of this. the only thing it proves is how powerful the crane style chain had to be to patch up the monk.
i also want to see how both classes fare when they do not rely on being a dwarf for a Fat save bonus.
no archtypes, no special race milking, no Ultimate combat stuff for either. Ultimate combat was the big book of monk love. it fixed the monk by creating options that only the less intellegent would do without.
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As an observer, why would you not include Ultimate Combat, archetypes or races? That doesn't really help with anything in comparisons.
An aside: After the teleport invisibility thing, great conversation, it really focused how I should rule it in my home game. Perception is a reaction check. Teleport is a standard action. If that action ends within 30ft of someone and you are invisible, and not wanting to be noticed, those that you are hiding from would get a DC 20 check to notice you. (The perception check for seeing an active person that is invisible.) It makes sense to me, most normal people would not make a DC 20 check. Those that don't train their perception would not either. Those super humans that do, would notice the 1000s of little things that would change when something suddenly enters in an area.
As an observer, why would you not include Ultimate Combat, archetypes or races? That doesn't really help with anything in comparisons.
I think Ultimate Combat is allowed. I think that some people don't like the archetypes being used because they change the way the class works and that changes the discussion. Races are also a little weird sometimes because you can do things with some classes that can only be done (or done easier) with some races. At that point you are not talking about just the class anymore.
Personally, I like having all the options on the table.
I agree with Bob. In a real game all the options, at least those books will be available in most games.
As for the dolphin creature. Wisdom, and intelligence are not the same thing. Intelligence is the ability to come up with ideas. Wisdom is your ability to notice what is going on. If your int is 4 I don't see you coming you with a complex strategy, but if you wisdom is high you might be able to realise why the strategy is working against you. As an example a creature with no intelligence can't form a battle plan.
Also as for the Akhlut he has no way of knowing when the PC's are showing or where they will. The monk and barbarian are also in a party so it
With all that aside the Akhlut will probably win initiative. Let say moves up to the barbarian, and hits him, which he probably will. Assuming he hits because I am too lazy to do the math, he will do 54.5-6 DR=48.5.
The monster can grab as a free action, and barring a nat 1 will grapple the barbarian.
The barbarian has claws however, and not only that the barbarian has raging vitality. The barbarian even when grappled can make unarmed strikes. He then uses the claws as a secondary natural attack.
I will have to the math on this one however.
Target AC is 29
Ouch the barbarian damage is mostly negated by the 15 DR, but that sets you up for the fighter to lay into the monster which is the same strategy I mentioned with another monster upthread. The barbarian can last 4 to 5 rounds even without healing. The monster is not lasting 5 rounds against the party. The barbarian lives. If the monster does not grapple the barbarian he get to full attack with the greatsword. The barbarian can take the monster on its own. The creature does not have spring attack so it is not kiting anyone, and even so both it and the barbarian have a speed of 40 so that idea still fails. Futhermore the barbarian has pounce. Creating distance is not a good idea. Sure the monster gets an AoO, but he still gets a full round attack in the face, even if he does have spring attack.
The barbarian either kills it or distracts it so the party can kill it.
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The monster can grapple the monk also, but the monk can just use abundant step, and the monk is ever faster than the barbarian. The monk might eventually get a stun to stick also. Now without the party's help the monk will lose enough hp and die. The monk does not have the hit points to last 4 or 5 rounds, nor any damage reduction to soften the bites. If the monk uses spring attack it will just be charged if the monster cares to go for it. The monk averages about 15 points of damage per round if it goes the spring attack route. If it goes the full attack route it does about 50ish points of damage(no math just an estimation). Now more than likely the monster will grapple the monk also. Just like the barbarian the monk is not getting out of this grapple by CMB alone. The move can abundant step out though. At this time the monk can teleport outside of the creature's charge range. That just means the monster attacks someone else, and grapples them. If the monk stays within charge range, and I would guess right in the monster's face since the monk at least gets to do damage then he hits it once for the above mentioned 15 points of damage. Actually since the monk might miss the DPR would be less, but for the sake of ease we will go with 15. The fighter on the other hand is hitting harder so the creature most likely ignores the monk to go after the fighter.
I think the barbarian has this one also.
Alternate strategies are welcome.
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As an observer, why would you not include Ultimate Combat, archetypes or races? That doesn't really help with anything in comparisons.I think Ultimate Combat is allowed. I think that some people don't like the archetypes being used because they change the way the class works and that changes the discussion. Races are also a little weird sometimes because you can do things with some classes that can only be done (or done easier) with some races. At that point you are not talking about just the class anymore.
Personally, I like having all the options on the table.
One big objection I could see is that when it comes to monks and archetypes, the two that are often seen as the best of the lot (Sohei and Zen Archer) are also seen as the two that go furthest from the standard monk in terms of ability/playstyle.
One big objection I could see is that when it comes to monks and archetypes, the two that are often seen as the best of the lot (Sohei and Zen Archer) are also seen as the two that go furthest from the standard monk in terms of ability/playstyle.As an observer, why would you not include Ultimate Combat, archetypes or races? That doesn't really help with anything in comparisons.I think Ultimate Combat is allowed. I think that some people don't like the archetypes being used because they change the way the class works and that changes the discussion. Races are also a little weird sometimes because you can do things with some classes that can only be done (or done easier) with some races. At that point you are not talking about just the class anymore.
Personally, I like having all the options on the table.
I think I called them out a couple of pages ago since it is those archetypes, and not the monk as a whole that is worth playing. I think I listed the martial artist archetype also since it is not bad to play. On the other hand a core barbarian could have been taken and done ok. Even that orca/wolf monster would not want a barbarian(core only) getting full attacks on him, and I would still have access to superstition which would give me good saves when raging.
you don't need intellect to use a power attacking improved vital strike. and kiting is something that wolves (a much less intellegent creature) can think of. it's faster than the monk/barb. the blizzard would be an instinctful thing to create against touch prey. even if you aren't booksmart, your wisdom would allow you to assess a general threat.
the monk w/ 7 int is smart enough to use abundant step when grappled. why can't this monster with a 4 int exploit kiting when wolves, a creature with an int of 1, can flank?
the only questionable part is the blizzard, which it would use if it had a hunch about strong prey.
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Dabbler, i would reccomend taking crane style out of this. the only thing it proves is how powerful the crane style chain had to be to patch up the monk.
Actually what will be shown is that crane style is situational. Where you don''t take many hits, it's powerful - VERY powerful. In the case of the Akhlut it effectively neutralizes the akhlut's single attack per round, the akhlut has to stand and fight to hurt Icandu. Against the dragon example I'm prepping, it's almost useless because the dragon has six high attacks.
i also want to see how both classes fare when they do not rely on being a dwarf for a Fat save bonus.
Icandu doesn't.
no archtypes, no special race milking, no Ultimate combat stuff for either. Ultimate combat was the big book of monk love. it fixed the monk by creating options that only the less intellegent would do without.
Which is one of our arguments that the monk can work but takes a lot of skill and options to work. With Icandu I used a core monk, though, ignoring the archetypes. Here's the thing: if Paizo release a fix based around feats or equipment, then it will be a supplement.
Here's the other thing: Icandu is good. He functions. He fills a role in a four man party. He also took a lot of work to work, and if he is a good as a monk can get, well frankly he is not stellar. He's merely adequate, doing a job a rogue could do without some of the roguy goodness the rogue would bring. The rogue would be a bit squishier, but would hit a lot harder.
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I did not see that or I would have pointed it out. The average encounter is APL=party level anyway.It is also important to see how a character performs in boss fights so matching it up to some extent against higher level monsters makes perfect sense. If all a character can do is beat up on mooks....... :)
Only solo adventure aren't really reflective of how the game is played, so it actually doesn't make sense.
The question is how do they contribute to the party.
And if a character is overwhelmed by mooks (remember CoDzilla's god-wizard) that matters as well.
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As an observer, why would you not include Ultimate Combat, archetypes or races? That doesn't really help with anything in comparisons.I think Ultimate Combat is allowed. I think that some people don't like the archetypes being used because they change the way the class works and that changes the discussion. Races are also a little weird sometimes because you can do things with some classes that can only be done (or done easier) with some races. At that point you are not talking about just the class anymore.
Personally, I like having all the options on the table.
Bob is correct, I think monk monks used style feat chains. I didn't use an archetype because I thought it would say more about the archetype than the monk, but anyone is free to post a build of any type they like.
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Only solo adventure aren't really reflective of how the game is played, so it actually doesn't make sense.
The question is how do they contribute to the party.
You've got to love overgeneralized statements based on one player's failure to image that other people play the game differently than he does.
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Good observations on Akhlut encounter
Again, adding the caveat that I specifically didn't want this to devolve into player vs monster since this is a party game...
The barbarian's pounce is severely effected by difficult terrain, and his movement of 30 (remember you picked heavy armor) is going to also be problematic. Additionally, the creature has dr/15 magic and the barbarians claws aren't magic.
The monk grappled is going to still be able to do full flurry (albeit at a -2) and with a ki point can make 6 attacks, (+17,+17,+17,+12,+12,+9)
Then there is the question of how it is grabbing, because of this line in the grab rules.
"The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply to use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself."
Meaning either both the Barbarian and I have a good chance of avoiding the grapple, or the creature is also grappled back, giving an advantage to the party.
Given this, I think both the monk and barbarian and contribute quite well in this encounter.
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You've got to love overgeneralized statements based on one player's failure to image that other people play the game differently than he does.Only solo adventure aren't really reflective of how the game is played, so it actually doesn't make sense.
The question is how do they contribute to the party.
If you play solo adventures, great. The game is designed for parties, and so this discussion is designed for parties.
PvP or PvM is a whole other discussion.
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the monk w/ 7 int is smart enough to use abundant step when grappled.
What monk has 7 int?
I think what he is saying is if you move forward to attack, you are stuck there until the next round unlike with spring attack. You may be able to attack and move back (depending on the grapple issue) but you can't move in, attack, and retreat. And if you are trying to kite, we don't have to facilitate it if we have other options.
I think I called them out a couple of pages ago since it is those archetypes, and not the monk as a whole that is worth playing. I think I listed the martial artist archetype also since it is not bad to play. On the other hand a core barbarian could have been taken and done ok. Even that orca/wolf monster would not want a barbarian(core only) getting full attacks on him, and I would still have access to superstition which would give me good saves when raging.One big objection I could see is that when it comes to monks and archetypes, the two that are often seen as the best of the lot (Sohei and Zen Archer) are also seen as the two that go furthest from the standard monk in terms of ability/playstyle.As an observer, why would you not include Ultimate Combat, archetypes or races? That doesn't really help with anything in comparisons.I think Ultimate Combat is allowed. I think that some people don't like the archetypes being used because they change the way the class works and that changes the discussion. Races are also a little weird sometimes because you can do things with some classes that can only be done (or done easier) with some races. At that point you are not talking about just the class anymore.
Personally, I like having all the options on the table.
Wondering if I took a non-archetypal monk into Jade Regent, would I get caned? Will the samurai oni feast on his entrails.
This is food for thought, since I was going to play a cleric of Zyphus...
Suppose you can make an adventure path easier by doing a tad more grinding than is expected.
This one I will respond to before heading to bed. If you have any comments or concerns, I will reply... well probably sometime in the afternoon at this point.
Again, adding the caveat that I specifically didn't want this to devolve into player vs monster since this is a party game...
Actually, I think the PvM route is a good method of determining party worth. For instance, if the Monk/Class X can solo a creature in 2 rounds, that means he can deal with an issue quickly an efficiently. If it takes him 15 rounds to solo something, but can die in 8, then the rest of the party is going to have to pick up the slack if the Monk/Class X wants to survive.
The barbarian's pounce is severely effected by difficult terrain, and his movement of 30 (remember you picked heavy armor) is going to also be problematic. Additionally, the creature has dr/15 magic and the barbarians claws aren't magic.
Not gonna go search for the Barbarian build, but I believe Lord Wraithstrike chose Mithril Heavy armor, which is treated as medium for purposes of movement, and therefore, he gets his fast movement in such armor.
Then there is the question of how it is grabbing, because of this line in the grab rules.
"The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply to use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself."
Meaning either both the Barbarian and I have a good chance of avoiding the grapple, or the creature is also grappled back, giving an advantage to the party.
What that rule means, is if the creature has say.. a claw attack with the Grab quality, the creature has the option of conducting the grapple using only his one claw, while not taking the grapple condition, meaning he can make attacks of opportunity, or even move, as long as he keeps the grabbed creature in reach somehow.
So, the Akhlut could hit, and make a grapple as a free attack via grab. On it's next turn, it can either choose to go through grapple as per the normal rules, or it can attempt to conduct the grapple with a -20 penalty, and not gain the grappled condition.
Given this, I think both the monk and barbarian and contribute quite well in this encounter.
I think either class comes off well, but the Barbarian is possibly keeping his edge simply because he can kill it faster. Killing, after all, is what the Barbarian does best.
You've got to love overgeneralized statements based on one player's failure to image that other people play the game differently than he does.Only solo adventure aren't really reflective of how the game is played, so it actually doesn't make sense.
The question is how do they contribute to the party.
In a game I was in, two players went solo, one player leaves.
By leaves I mean his character was greatly rogered and they left the game. The other guy did really well! None were monks, but yes, sometimes parties and how people play the game, is weird.
Last game my party had a murder mystery to solve, when they weren't fighting dire bunnies and chatting up Cthulhu horrors (the bloated woman).
Barbarians win drinking contests best.
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At the risk of this becoming another trip into rules minutia (which was informative last time, so it isn't a "bad" thing), the grab rule is here.
Meaning to me that +43 become a +23 if the creature doesn't want to be grappled back by whatever it is grappling, so probably something mainly used to stymie casters with low CMD rather than high CMD melee classes.
Key wording is "...it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple..."
The -20 applied to the attempt, not just the maintenance. The fact that it is mouth rather than claw seems to make no difference in the rule.
So the creature could either have a great chance of grappling, but also be grappled, or a bad chance of grappling (at least the melees), but not be grappled.
Grappling's not what it used to be. Anyone here remember when being grappled meant you were rogue-fodder? :P
you don't need intellect to use a power attacking improved vital strike. and kiting is something that wolves (a much less intellegent creature) can think of. it's faster than the monk/barb. the blizzard would be an instinctful thing to create against touch prey. even if you aren't booksmart, your wisdom would allow you to assess a general threat.
the monk w/ 7 int is smart enough to use abundant step when grappled. why can't this monster with a 4 int exploit kiting when wolves, a creature with an int of 1, can flank?
the only questionable part is the blizzard, which it would use if it had a hunch about strong prey.
Wolves do it by instinct, not because they figure it out. As an example I have seen fights in real life where nobody is smart enough to go for a flank if the out person is outnumbered. They both attack head on. :)
I did not see that or I would have pointed it out. The average encounter is APL=party level anyway.It is also important to see how a character performs in boss fights so matching it up to some extent against higher level monsters makes perfect sense. If all a character can do is beat up on mooks....... :)
Only solo adventure aren't really reflective of how the game is played, so it actually doesn't make sense.
The question is how do they contribute to the party.
And if a character is overwhelmed by mooks (remember CoDzilla's god-wizard) that matters as well.
I wasn't suggesting a one on one fight. My point was that the monk are barbarian will have to match with the boss guy in some manner. Using higher CR's is important to figure out what affect they both have in the situation.
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Grappling's not what it used to be. Anyone here remember when being grappled meant you were rogue-fodder? :P
Agreed on some fronts, although it is still a very effective move against 1/2 bab full casters even without improved, since who cares about their AoO. And unarmed monks don't have the -4 for attempting it with something in your hands, making it an effective move even without the feat in some situations.
For the purposes of this discussion, it tends to be worse for a barbarian since they generally use two handed weapons while a monk can flurry with just one hand. But it is kind of moot since it isn't generally the best move to try and grapple a barbarian.
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I wasn't suggesting a one on one fight. My point was that the monk are barbarian will have to match with the boss guy in some manner. Using higher CR's is important to figure out what affect they both have in the situation.
I did not see that or I would have pointed it out. The average encounter is APL=party level anyway.It is also important to see how a character performs in boss fights so matching it up to some extent against higher level monsters makes perfect sense. If all a character can do is beat up on mooks....... :)
Only solo adventure aren't really reflective of how the game is played, so it actually doesn't make sense.
The question is how do they contribute to the party.
And if a character is overwhelmed by mooks (remember CoDzilla's god-wizard) that matters as well.
Fair enough, but I would like to see more scenarios and less match ups when possible. At least in my games it isn't usually an "open up the bestiary and fight X kind of thing."
Maybe we can have a thread where we can discuss specific situations in APs or modules we all have played?
Good observations on Akhlut encounterAgain, adding the caveat that I specifically didn't want this to devolve into player vs monster since this is a party game...
The barbarian's pounce is severely effected by difficult terrain, and his movement of 30 (remember you picked heavy armor) is going to also be problematic. Additionally, the creature has dr/15 magic and the barbarians claws aren't magic.
The monk grappled is going to still be able to do full flurry (albeit at a -2) and with a ki point can make 6 attacks, (+17,+17,+17,+12,+12,+9)
Then there is the question of how it is grabbing, because of this line in the grab rules.
"The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply to use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself."
Meaning either both the Barbarian and I have a good chance of avoiding the grapple, or the creature is also grappled back, giving an advantage to the party.
Given this, I think both the monk and barbarian and contribute quite well in this encounter.
The heavy armor is a nonfactor. It is mithral, but then again I have a dwarf.
As for the -20 I was assuming it did not take that option which is why the party fighter can lay into it.
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Good observations on Akhlut encounterAgain, adding the caveat that I specifically didn't want this to devolve into player vs monster since this is a party game...
The barbarian's pounce is severely effected by difficult terrain, and his movement of 30 (remember you picked heavy armor) is going to also be problematic. Additionally, the creature has dr/15 magic and the barbarians claws aren't magic.
The monk grappled is going to still be able to do full flurry (albeit at a -2) and with a ki point can make 6 attacks, (+17,+17,+17,+12,+12,+9)
Then there is the question of how it is grabbing, because of this line in the grab rules.
"The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply to use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself."
Meaning either both the Barbarian and I have a good chance of avoiding the grapple, or the creature is also grappled back, giving an advantage to the party.
Given this, I think both the monk and barbarian and contribute quite well in this encounter.
The heavy armor is a nonfactor. It is mithral, but then again I have a dwarf.
As for the -20 I was assuming it did not take that option which is why the party fighter can lay into it.
If it is mutually grappling either the monk or barb in a 5 person party, that is more or less a one round fight in my opinion considering it now has a -4 to dex and can't move.
And I apologize, I remembered your movement was 30 but forgot why. Sorry.
I am now picturing our two dwarves in the bar when the iconics walk in.
Mithral heavy armor becomes medium, but the character still has to have proficiency in heavy armors to use it efficiently. If you don't care about ACP, then have at it.
At the risk of this becoming another trip into rules minutia (which was informative last time, so it isn't a "bad" thing), the grab rule is here.
Meaning to me that +43 become a +23 if the creature doesn't want to be grappled back by whatever it is grappling, so probably something mainly used to stymie casters with low CMD rather than high CMD melee classes.
Key wording is "...it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple..."
The -20 applied to the attempt, not just the maintenance. The fact that it is mouth rather than claw seems to make no difference in the rule.
So the creature could either have a great chance of grappling, but also be grappled, or a bad chance of grappling (at least the melees), but not be grappled.
When you grapple something you normally gain some penalties which puts limits on you also. If you grapple something it leaves you very open to outside attacks. As an example you don't threaten other squares. If you want the benefits of the grapple without the bad effects you take the -20. Even if you are grappled though the grappler still has control of the grappled, that is why being able to reverse the grapple has to be done if someone want to control the grapple.
If the monster in question takes the -20 the monk or barbarian is likely to get free. If the barbarian or monk is free because of the -20 and a failing roll they can full attack.
Back to the creature. It has 10 feet of feet so yes if it uses the control weather SLA the difficult terrain will be an issue.
However
I do have close to 12000 go left over so I can afford a +1 bow and any consumables such as fly potions.
It is not Schrodinger's barbarian because I did call this out, just like I called the bow out. My time to edit had elapsed though. Difficult terrain be gone. I can also still charge.
Even if I had never mentioned the fly spell earlier the creature is still taking a good hit. The fact that he has to focus all of his attention on me in order to kill me also helps the party.
We now know that even if the barbarian can't kill something on its own it's damage has to be respected, and it can have enough hit points so that it can most likely survive until the monster is dead, and that is without any external buffs.
Mithral heavy armor becomes medium, but the character still has to have proficiency in heavy armors to use it efficiently. If you don't care about ACP, then have at it.
I do have heavy armor proficiency.
Right after I made the barbarian Shuriken Nekogami said I was missing a feat. I explained that I had taken heavy armor proficiency, but herolab did not list it for some reason.
Grokko, you should get a +2 composite longbow w/ a +6 strength rating. you also have a 7th unspent feat slot. i reccomend spending it on deadly aim.
I have all of my feats, Nekogami1 1st Steel Soul
2 Beast Totem, Lesser (Su)
3 power attack
4 Superstition (+5 vs spells, supernatural abilities, and spell-like abilities when raging)
5 Furioius Focus
6 Beast Totem(+3 nat armor when raging)
7 Raging Vitality(morale bonus to con increases by 2. continue to rage even when unconscious)
8 Scent
9 Heavy Armor Proficiency
10 Beast Totem, Greater(pounce when raging)
11 iron will.
12 Guarded Life (convert 13 points of lethal damage to nonlethal damage to prevent death)
13 Raging Brutality(adds 1.5 con modifier to damage, not multiplied on crit)PS:It seems heavy armor proficiency was not listed in my spoiler, but herolabs did account for it.
Good observations on Akhlut encounterAgain, adding the caveat that I specifically didn't want this to devolve into player vs monster since this is a party game...
The barbarian's pounce is severely effected by difficult terrain, and his movement of 30 (remember you picked heavy armor) is going to also be problematic. Additionally, the creature has dr/15 magic and the barbarians claws aren't magic.
The monk grappled is going to still be able to do full flurry (albeit at a -2) and with a ki point can make 6 attacks, (+17,+17,+17,+12,+12,+9)
Then there is the question of how it is grabbing, because of this line in the grab rules.
"The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply to use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself."
Meaning either both the Barbarian and I have a good chance of avoiding the grapple, or the creature is also grappled back, giving an advantage to the party.
Given this, I think both the monk and barbarian and contribute quite well in this encounter.
The heavy armor is a nonfactor. It is mithral, but then again I have a dwarf.
As for the -20 I was assuming it did not take that option which is why the party fighter can lay into it.
If it is mutually grappling either the monk or barb in a 5 person party, that is more or less a one round fight in my opinion considering it now has a -4 to dex and can't move.
And I apologize, I remembered your movement was 30 but forgot why. Sorry.
I am now picturing our two dwarves in the bar when the iconics walk in.
I accounted for the fighter in the party having easy access to it if it tries to hold on to either one of us. Your monk can DD out. I can just take the damage, while doing some damage, but not a lot in return. It will be dead before I will due to the fighter and the rest of the party also. :)
edit:Actually I think I said your monk DD'ing out might make it realise the monk is not a good target. I should have added eventually since the creature is not that smart. It might make 2 attempts, if you DD within its grapple range, but if the fighter just laid into it, then it might for after him.
@wraithstrike - I think we agree that both builds do great in this scenario and the party has no real issues.
Win-win all around :)
Yeah, get a tougher monster Shuriken. ;)
i present the following EL 16 encounter all prebuffed with mage armor by the Rhakshasa leaders.
2 Rhakshasas
2 advanced combat trained TRExes
8 advanced giant Clockwork soldiers
i know the barbarian and monk did well against the Solo Akhlut, but can they deal with this encounter?
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Rhakshasas meet shuriken. You can barely hit me and your spells aren't really going to be effective against me, so so sweat there.
T-Rex I would would want to see the advancements but the base model is pretty easy for the monk. Same with the clockwork soldiers, depending on the advancements.
I think the Barb would feel the same way as he pounced between them.
I think we would both actually fare better than anyone else in the party in this one.