I'm reasonably certain that Pathfinder doesn't have a rule for how electricity interacts with water.
Fantsy physics and real physics don't always mesh. It cuts down on the math.
This has been addressed many, many times on these boards. Water does not extend the range of electrical spells. What your party did is attempt to apply real world physics (incorrectly) to the game world and ended up breaking your encounter.
Shocking grasp doesn't work that way. Water does not conduct magical "electric" energies unless the spell description explicitly says it does.
Ironically, pure water, which I'm sure magical water would be, is actually not a good conductor of electricity. Its the pollutants in the water that enable water to carry such a good charge.
That said, I'd have probably allowed him to spread the damage around among the hobgoblins as a reward for creative thinking, but I certainly wouldn't have allowed him to do the full damage to every hobgoblin.
Yep. My rule for electricity damage in water is you divide it evenly between the targets. You could either divide the dice or roll the damage and divide the total.
hello all!
first post here, would like the community's feedback:
Hello to you! Welcome to the forums.
Are there any game mechanics regarding water and electrical discharge?
Nope.
Is there a mechanic specifying what area size can one cover with create water?
Physics? It will depend heavily on the type of ground (uneven cave? Absorbent dirt?), and is way outside the scope of the game rules.
Should I have done a fort or reflex save for the hobgoblins standing in the pool?
I would say neither, because it should not have worked. Spells do what they say, and shocking grasp says nothing about turning it into an area of effect spell by touching a puddle. An "in-universe" answer is more difficult, as magical electricity doesn't really follow any of the rules of real electricity. As a house rule for halfsy real world-magical physics, you might consider splitting the damage between the targets, and perhaps even adding a reflex save for half. But letting someone kill a whole group of enemies with it is neither balanced nor realistic.
I gave an Aoo to the hobgoblins standing in front of the sorc as he tried to shock the puddle. You think that was a good call?Was the AoO for spellcasting? In that case, yes, those are the rules of the game. If it was an extra AoO for shocking the puddle, I would probably say no. You wouldn't give an AoO for using shocking grasp on, say, an ooze when an orc is standing next to you, would you?
As far as create water goes its a math volume spread problem. But unless cast in a bowl or something with clear sides like a it to contain the water.
But in the majority of situations it will just make the ground wet.
Creativity should be rewarded but a good rule of thumb is spells do exactly what they say they do.
I have seen at least one Paizo product that makes use of the principle that (polluted) water conducts electricity.
In Crypt of the Everflame,
How electricity spreads and/or doesn't spread in water is one of the most difficult physics problems that lightning researchers have been trying to solve for decades. Hundreds of years.
The reality is that it's just not predictable. Sometimes the electricity will act like a lightning bolt in air and will follow a single path of least resistance to a single target, sometimes striking an individual who is surrounded by others who are not even touched. Sometimes the energy disperses in a small area striking several people, but with much less energy. Sometimes it just gets absorbed by the water and doesn't even touch a person in the water.
So there's no "real world physics" way to resolve how the spell "should work" in water. But that assumes that magical electricity even follows the same laws as real world electricity.
The best thing is just to follow the spell description exactly. If you want to be more creative, I like redward's approach, but I would be careful to be sure that the total damage done is no more than the original damage the spell can do. So the more you spread it out, the less it does to each target.
Questions about the conductivity of shocking grasp and other electric based spells abound on these boards. A quick search should give you some reading material for a while.
Again, as the spell is written, it would not penetrate a door and hit the hobgoblins on the other side any more than it would spread through water. Having it do things like that is a house rule. It's not an uncommon house rule though, because people like to think they have a natural understanding of how electricity works. They're usually wrong about that, but it doesn't stop them. Engineers and physicists have a really good understanding of how electricity works in wires and circuits. Once you get electricity into "the wild" things change dramatically.
However, it's not unreasonable to assume that if you applied shocking grasp to an iron door, anyone pushing on it from the other side might feel it. But again I'd spread the damage between them, not apply full damage to each of them. That's what I would likely do.
As far as how much water... well, that all depends on how deep the puddle you make is. A 5 foot square is 25 square feet or 23,226 sq centimeters. A liter of water is 1,000 cubic centimeters. So it would take 24 liters of water to make a puddle of water one centimeter deep covering 5 square feet. So your 16 liter, 100 sq foot "puddle" would have been 1/6 of a centimeter deep. That's really pretty much just a damp floor.
Personally I would never have allowed that as it is giving way too much power to the spell. I would have split the damage up between the targets at MOST.
If you allow this, you are opening up yourself to alternate uses of ALL spells....hmm..how about I disintegrate the ceiling in the tunnel and outright kill your BBG? How about I Create Water on the BBG and then Cone of Cold? You can see how this would get out of control fast.
These types of things are great for flavor in your game, and feel free to spice up your game as you see fit.
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1- 4 gallons of water, or 16 liters of water, would cover what surface would you say? I gave them 4 squares but would like how many you think it would give them
BTW the Aoo I gave was when he bended down in front of the 2 opponents to touch the puddle to shock it. He had cast and 5 foot stepped in order to shock them.
From Create Water: "Note: Conjuration spells can't create substances or objects within a creature. Water weighs about 8 pounds per gallon. One cubic foot of water contains roughly 8 gallons and weighs about 60 pounds." (I haven't checked this vs. the actual desnsity of water)
So, 4 gallons of water by the rules, is 1/2 of a cubic foot. It would cover a 5x5 square to a depth of 0.5/25=.02 feet, or about 1/4 of an inch in depth.
The AoO when he cast if iffy under the rules. The character is armed with a touch spell; it doesn't provoke to deliver a touch spell. Bending down is somewhat similar to picking up an item. All in all, I wouldn't flinch if a GM called for an AoO in this situation, but would expect him to announce the mechanic as the plan was being made and not surprise me with it.
Rewarding creative thinking is generally a good thing, but it also anticipates a playing style where such unusual spell application is expected by players in other situations. And, players then start to balk when GMs use such tactics themselves, which tends to undermine trust of the GM. This is kinda why playing the spells as written is a more typical kind of approach. Anyone who played during the wild and woolly days of past editions can share the amusing and or annoying situations of creative spells use disrupting games and sometimes playing groups over difference of opinions between what's creative, what's abusive, and who has a better understanding of the real life physics that are being used to justify these creative tactics.
There isn't a wrong way to play, but everyone needs to be on the same page about what expectations are.
I would allow the PC to have spent a Hero Point in order to "imaginatively interpret" his spell in a "dire situation". But Rules as Written? No.
Also, never let engineers play. They ruin everything.
If you allow this, you are opening up yourself to alternate uses of ALL spells....hmm..how about I disintegrate the ceiling in the tunnel and outright kill your BBG? How about I Create Water on the BBG and then Cone of Cold? You can see how this would get out of control fast.These types of things are great for flavor in your game, and feel free to spice up your game as you see fit.
I'm in agreement here. I understand you wanting to award your players for quick thinking, but in doing so be conservative. First time out the gates with a near spell combo or idea, do not,I say again DO NOT, allow them full damage or more than would seem plausible.
The only true spell I've seen to allow the air to water transfer, is lightning bolt. I'm not sure if it is still in the 3.5 or Pathfinder rules, worked like this. If a lightning bolt spell was cast and discharged underwater, it became an area of effect spell, similar to a fireball.
2- could you elaborate on the fact that pure water DOES NOT conduct electricity? As much as the game is fantasy and magic is not real, I am nerdy enough to enjoy including some elements of real-life science, or at least know more about it for my personal knowledge... I also like to reward creative thinking!
Distilled water, which is pretty much pure H20 with some dissolved atmospheric gases in it, doesn't conduct electricity well at all. In order to conduct electricity, water needs dissolved charged particles, a.k.a. electrolytes. These are usually positive and negative ions, e.g. from salts. You may have seen experiments where you use normal water and water to which salt has been added, put two electrodes in the water, not touching, and connect the electrodes in a circuit with a lightbulb and a battery. The lightbulb will be significantly brighter in the case where salt has been added to the water. The negative ions flow to the positive electrode and vice versa. Although pure water does have some ions in it, namely H+ and OH- ions that form from the disassociation of water, there aren't a lot of these so conductivity is extremely low.
However, if the water was created such that it went onto the ground, the ground probably had lots of salts and other substances that would have dissolved into the water almost instantly, giving the water plenty of electrolytes to conduct electricity.
I don't think you should ever punish creative and viable player ideas by saying 'well that's not in the rules so it doesn't work.
I would have made the spell provoke AoO's as any spell should and then would have resolved it as dealing half damage (since its spread out and diffused), with the goblins making a reflex save for none - but that's just me.
I think I have to go with splitting the damage up against all the targets. That is assuming the water provided an adequate contact. But that is outside of RAW (and is the GM ruling I would have made.)
Regarding 'pure' water. I assume the create water spell does not create actual pure water because if that is the case it would be harmful to drink. Not 'poison harmful' but long term harmful. I expect it creates standard water that is safe to drink which is properly filled with the contaminants we need to live. (Sidenote: dont drink Deionized water, as it will cause some serious issues over the long run.)
- Gauss