Hey all,
I'm considering using the Chain of Dogs from Steven Erikson's Deadhouse Gates as the basis for an upcoming event in my campaign. If you're familiar with the book, you'll know what I'm talking about, if not, here's the tl;dr version:
The characters have to escort a large number of civilians many miles to safety while an enemy army harasses them the entire way.
Another reference that may help is from the Lord of the Rings, when the Rohirrim flee Edoras for Helm's Deep.
Anyway, here's the background. The PCs, once soldiers of an invading empire, have fled from a battle where they were betrayed and framed (more Malazan influence). They settled in quaint city in the kingdom to the north, and this has been their base of operations for at least five levels. They have made many ties to the area, some financial, some tactical, others romantic. Their quests have lead them away from worrying about the empire that's still hunting them. I intend on having that foe come crashing back into their lives at some point later in the campaign, and the Chain of Dogs has given me inspiration.
My idea is, at some point down the road (there is still much to do around the kingdom they're in), the invading empire marches an army into the kingdom and is about to sack the city the PCs are in. They'll be asked to help lead the civilian inhabitants further north to another city with is much better fortified (Helm's Deep, if you will). It's not that far away, maybe 200 miles, but a train of civilians will take around two weeks to walk there. During that time, the train will be attacked regularly. Usually small hit and run, harrying attacks, but a few large scale encounters, as well.
Now, here's the d!@k move, on my part. Everything they've worked for back in town will be sacked. Ruined. Gone. Many, many civilians, and probably some of their friends, will die. I want to put hatred for their former employers back into their hearts. I want them to have to start fighting a lopsided battle. These guys are too clever, by far, so I know they'll figure out a way to survive, and fight back. I just have two questions..
1. Should I do this to them? It fits the story that we've been building, and furthers a few other points of the campaign, but it's harsh.
2. How do I go about running it, if I do. I'm not a novice GM, but I could use some outside opinions and thoughts.
Thanks for reading this far. Sorry for the huge post. Any thoughts are appreciated.
If you're already running a Malazan-esque campaign, then the Chain of Dogs is pretty par for the course, in my opinion.
You'd seriously need someone like Fist Coltaine or even One-arm to pull off a fighting withdrawal like that though, I'd start grooming the appropriate NPC now.
Re-read and refresh the rules for fatigue and starvation. Coltaine effectively had his casters shut down, your PC's should also be on the brink of collapse too.
But, positive side, I want to the stats for the Wickan dogs and the horsemen. Also, Bult.
If you're already running a Malazan-esque campaign, then the Chain of Dogs is pretty par for the course, in my opinion.
You'd seriously need someone like Fist Coltaine or even One-arm to pull off a fighting withdrawal like that though, I'd start grooming the appropriate NPC now.
Re-read and refresh the rules for fatigue and starvation. Coltaine effectively had his casters shut down, your PC's should also be on the brink of collapse too.
But, positive side, I want to the stats for the Wickan dogs and the horsemen. Also, Bult.
It is heavily influenced by the Malazan books, so I agree, it fits the feel. I already have a few Coltaine/One-Arm types, waiting in the wings. They've been seeded, the PCs have met them. I don't think I'll include the Wickan dogs, or the Wickans, in general. I want the PCs to be the elite warriors (as much as I love the Wickans). Bult will have to happen, though. Thanks for that. Thanks for reminding me about the fatigue and starvation rules, too. I'll need that.
I'm thinking about assigning a daily attrition rate, and modifying it based on the PCs actions and tactics.
Having 100 pages left of Deadhouse Gates, I wasn't sure I dared look in this thread...
Sure, you should do it ;-) This makes me wanne run something similar.
It is surely harsh, and in that I think it is important to keep the NPCs, they have build relations with. It would be a shame if it feels like some of the AP chapter-changes which are a bit "And now for something completely different".
On the other hand keeping those NPCs in the train of refugees might help strengthening their bonds.
I think a daily attrition rating could work, but you might do well to keep the numbers covert. Of course the characters know largely how many days food and water they have. But if they have the precise figures, how the distribution of it affects them, it might easily turn into a strategy game instead. While strategic elements are important, a focus on numbers might ruin the feeling of dread making their hopeless journey.
If it fits the characters and players, I would consider giving them charge of the chain. Maybe not from the start, but then a dead commander could open the spot.
Just following a great commander, might make a great story, but it isn't necessarily great play. It all a matter of preference, of course, but I would personally prefer to have the character drive the story onwards, making hard decision and possibly throwing the game in a route the GM haven't anticipated, rather than them just being participants in a greater plan.
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You could have a look at the caravan rules from the jade reagent adventure path. Not perfect but they could be modified to assist your scenario, which sounds awesome.
As to whether you should run it or not.
I say go for it, just don't destroy everything the players worked for. Always leave them a little something to start building from a second time round otherwise they(the players) can start to feel like their actions are meaningless and that can make for some bad blood at the game table.
Thanks for the feedback, guys.
@ HaraldKlak: The attrition rate would absolutely be behind the screen. I'd probably explain that the PCs actions will have an effect of the the survival of the refugees and soldiers, but not with any hard numbers. I believe something similar went on in the first part of the Serpent's Skull AP. Depending on what we did for camp, and things like that, the GM raised or lowered the chance of disease and random encounters. I'd do something like that, but on a larger scale and affecting the attrition rate.
I also plan on making the PCs the center of attention. There may be a leader, probably the king, or a general they know, but they'll be the ones making the tactical and logistical decisions. They'll be the ones at the center of the pivotal moments, being the deciding factor in whether they win or lose.
@ Hecknoshow: I'm planning on destroying EVERYTHING they've worked for, nor killing off all their NPC attachments, just enough to hurt. What part of the Jade Regent AP are the caravan rules in? I don't have it, but I could get just one part, if I need to.
Note that those things you are taking away are not only things that the PC's worked hard to obtain, but things that the PLAYERs worked hard to obtain.
Unless you clear it with your players first, this is certainly a 'richard" move. Don't.
Note that those things you are taking away are not only things that the PC's worked hard to obtain, but things that the PLAYERs worked hard to obtain.
Unless you clear it with your players first, this is certainly a 'richard" move. Don't.
Err.. I just realized there's something crucial missing in my last post. The word "not", as in I'm NOT planning on destroying everything they've work for. HUUUGE difference. In fact, aside from a sense of loss and tragedy, most everything would be going on the march with them. All the more reason for them to protect it.
Now, here's the d!@k move, on my part. Everything they've worked for back in town will be sacked. Ruined. Gone. Many, many civilians, and probably some of their friends, will die.
Is this not your OP? Or have you changed this?
Is this not your OP? Or have you changed this?
Now, here's the d!@k move, on my part. Everything they've worked for back in town will be sacked. Ruined. Gone. Many, many civilians, and probably some of their friends, will die.
Yup, I wrote that. You'll notice it was also about 24 hours, and a handful of exchanges, ago. That's why I asked for feedback.
What I mean to say is, with the loss of their adopted city, they lose a base of operations, and a sense of home and safety. That's the point of the whole thing. I apologize for any hyperbole on my part in the OP
I absolutely loved the books (just finished #8). Chain of Dogs is an AWESOME idea to put the players through. Nothing bonds a table of players like some good tragedy.
I would suggest maybe starting each "morning" and possibly "night" of the train with a meeting of the PC's and your Coltaine or One-Arm and any NPC's that fit the flavor of the higher-ups meeting. As it was in the book, that would be a perfect stage to set the feelings of desperation and give the PC's the chance to influence and live with the hard decisions needed to be made for the train to survive (cutting rations, mercy killing those who are wounded too badly or too sick, plague, spoiled food, etc).
Are any of your players an Alchemist? Hopefully someone has the ability to use bombs...I know I would just WANT to be planning some Moranth munitions scenes...like timing a charge and burying it and running away in time as a trap. Call me crazy.
P.S. Love the nick and the pic! I want to make Iskaral Pust someday...
I absolutely loved the books (just finished #8). Chain of Dogs is an AWESOME idea to put the players through. Nothing bonds a table of players like some good tragedy.
I would suggest maybe starting each "morning" and possibly "night" of the train with a meeting of the PC's and your Coltaine or One-Arm and any NPC's that fit the flavor of the higher-ups meeting. As it was in the book, that would be a perfect stage to set the feelings of desperation and give the PC's the chance to influence and live with the hard decisions needed to be made for the train to survive (cutting rations, mercy killing those who are wounded too badly or too sick, plague, spoiled food, etc).
Are any of your players an Alchemist? Hopefully someone has the ability to use bombs...I know I would just WANT to be planning some Moranth munitions scenes...like timing a charge and burying it and running away in time as a trap. Call me crazy.
P.S. Love the nick and the pic! I want to make Iskaral Pust someday...
Have fun with books 9 and 10. Dust of Dreams is a bit of a slog, but The Crippled God makes it all worth it. I'm not ashamed to admit I cried at the end. Of course, ending a ten year long relationship is always hard. Glad I can always go back.
Last night I finished up creating the mechanics of the march. I was thinking along the lines of what you suggested, having a daily meeting with the PCs and the higher up NPCs. I'd have them explain their plans for the day, tackle the logistical and tactical problems that arise, and then assign modifiers to the daily attrition rate. I also wrote up a random daily event table, sort of like an encounter table. These are the days challenges to overcome, and success or failure have different modifiers to the attrition rate as well.
On top of that I've written rules for handling those challenges. Essentially opposed checks modified by the PCs plans and actions during the daily meeting, plus any smart moves they make. Like I said, these guys never cease surprising me, so there's plenty of misc. modifiers to take that into account.
Sadly, no Alchemists, and no Moranth munitions. I decided early in the game not to include anything like that from the start. If one of the PCs decides to research and develop munitions, then I'm all for it. No one has, yet. The ARG has a gnome (I think it is) Alch archetype called Saboteur that's almost perfect for Malazan style sappers. Makes me wish I could reroll my gnome alchemist. Also, I tried statting up Pust once, but never finished. I couldn't decide on class.
Hehehehehee! Have fun on the campaign. Wish I could be at THAT table!
I cried at the end of the 3rd book.
Hehehehehee! Have fun on the campaign. Wish I could be at THAT table!
I cried at the end of the 3rd book.
Yeah.... me, too. #notreallyabigtoughguy
What level are they? We had a high level campaign with a lot of marching, but we teleported home most nights. That might disrupt your massacre.
What level are they? We had a high level campaign with a lot of marching, but we teleported home most nights. That might disrupt your massacre.
Hahaha. Yeah, that would put a kink in my plans. Luckily that's not gonna happen. They'll be 7th level when this goes down. Marching through the dust with everyone else.
Exxxxxxcellent.....
Release the hounds!!!!
}:->