Officially, I need a statistic high enough to cast the spell scribed on a scroll. Int or Charisma for Sor/Wiz spells, Wis for divine spells.
Has this been modified or rescinded any time? If not, an Oracle would have a very hard time being able to employ a scroll she has written herself, being a Charisma based spellcaster.
Second, if I stumble across an arcane scroll of, say, CLW... do I get to choose whether I need Int or Cha for using it? (Last time I checked, there was only an arcane/divine distinction; nobody cares whether said scroll has been written by a witch or bard)...
The scroll user needs to have their relevant ability score high enough for them to cast it from their own spell list.
If they are a high enough level to be able to cast the spell, they don't need to check to do so.
Also, to expand a little more, an Oracle couldn't cast an Arcane CLW, since Oracles are Divine spellcasters, and can't use Arcane scrolls without UMD.
Seems like it's a legacy bug. In 3.5 all divine casters were Wisdom-based.
I doubt that it's the intent of the rule, but I haven't seen it addressed officially.
Read magic, deciphering, scrolls, UMD, divine/arcane-vs-class... all of this stuff is way overdo for a cleanup. Especially since UMD tends to trigger all of the others. I suspect most players are ignoring many of these rules.
Just to stop me editing my above post, scroll casting is a series of questions:
Does my caster type (Arcane/Divine) match the scroll?
Is the spell on my class spell list?
Is my ability score (the one for my class) high enough to cast a spell of that level?
If all of the above are "yes", you can try to cast the spell from the scroll.
So, let's try a more complicated situation (actually, I have been in that one)
Let's assume I'm a Cle1/Sor6, Wis is 14; Cha is 22. Trying to cast a (divine) scroll of Raise Dead
Do I need to use UMD to emulate a Wisdom of 15 (spell is on my Cleric spell list, but I lack the required Wisdom score for casting 5th level Cleric spells)? We are looking at a DC30 UMD here.
Or, can I use UMD to cast the (divine) spell as an Oracle (as if it were on none of my spell lists); my Cha of 22 being more than enough for the task? Suddenly, the UMD DC is a mere 25.
Nice example! Had to check lots of things to get the answer. Which is...
Pick whichever method you want.
Pretty much anyone would go for the "fake having the spell on my Sorc spell list" option (which is actually what your second one is, you don't pretend to be an Oracle, you check to add the spell to your class list while casting from the scroll).
Edit: ah, got the rest of your point. Yes, DC25 will let you cast the scroll as an Oracle, if the GM allows it.
The core rules are written assuming Wis for Divine and Int/Cha for Arcane, but I would have no problem with someone picking and choosing their "fake caster class" for UMD.
The default assumption, barring other information, is that a scroll was written by either a wizard or a cleric.
Yes, you would have to use UMD to jack up your wisdom to cast the cleric spell.
So it looks like if you are reading the 5th level raise dead from a scroll as a cleric, you'd need a UMD 30 (score = check - 15).
Using the scroll as if it is an Oracle spell would have required an Oracle to have scribed the scroll in the first place. Technically the creator of the scroll matters here, because it can effect such things as the spell level and the stat involved (see lesser restoration paladin vs cleric versions).
Also, the DC here is 27; 20 + caster level for spell (5th level spell, 7th level caster).
On the plus side, you don't have to use the diamond because it was baked into the scroll (making a scroll of raise dead rather pricy)
Also, the DC here is 27; 20 + caster level for spell (5th level spell, 7th level caster).
Okay... I read 'spell level' when the entry was 'caster level'. I stand corrected.
Hmm... does anyone make the difference between who wrote the spell? Do I need a Sorc scroll to use Charisma (which would make arcane scrolls pretty much worthless for me, as they are likely assumed to be written by a wizard (a Sorc scroll would usually have a higher minimum caster level), thus requiring Int to read)?
Is it just me, or is this whole thing pretty much borked up?
It is a bit iffy. I understand that they want to make scrolls a natural part of a spell caster's life but very hard to use for non-spell casters (or young casters, or those who don't have a high stat). Scrolls are a supplement to casters, not a replacement or means to extend capability.
I generally don't care about who wrote the scroll vs who is using it because the only person in my party who uses scrolls is the wizard. Everyone else ignores them.
I think all "wizard/sorcerer" spells are interchangeably-useable, with the READER'S appropriate casting score, regardless of who scribed it.
I could be wrong, I mean, it HAS happened. Once, maybe, or possibly on three different occasions...
;-)
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Seems like it's a legacy bug. In 3.5 all divine casters were Wisdom-based.
3.5 SRD classes only had wisdom based divine casters, yes. But 3.5 included divine casters based on Charisma and Intelligence. Favored Soul and Archivist are examples, respectively.
Edit: In any case, the sorc/wizard example has been there, even if less pronounced.
The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine).
Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only
use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters
(clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls
containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character
creates is also determined by his class.)
• The user must have the spell on her class list.
• The user must have the requisite ability score
That's the text of scrolls in all of its unedited glory.
I'm not seeing any "All divine scrolls are wisdom based" rule. This was probably changed at some point, as there was a time when a lot of the "cleric-centric" rules were changed to be "divine" based.
Alas, it's still in there.
.
.
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Emulate an Ability Score: To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells). Your effective ability score (appropriate to the class you're emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll) is your Use Magic Device check result minus 15. If you already have a high enough score in the appropriate ability, you don't need to make this check.
Yea, I'm going to go ahead and say they just missed that.
Or you could just use the next sentence, since that's the one that actually makes sense ;)
Or you could just use the next sentence, since that's the one that actually makes sense ;)
So, in my example above, I get to choose whether to emulate the stat, as the spell is on a class list of mine, or to emulate the class since my stat for the spell on this not-my-list is high enough?
So, in my example above, I get to choose whether to emulate the stat, as the spell is on a class list of mine, or to emulate the class since my stat for the spell on this not-my-list is high enough?
Even if emulating another class' spellcasting ability is allowable with the, "Emulate a Class Feature," option*, emulating being an oracle capable of safely casting raise dead would be a DC 32 UMD check, not a DC 25 check.
Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).
It's not 20+spell level, it's 20+effective caster level.
*EDIT: And I disagree that it is usable in your example, even if manipulating the mechanics of other UMD options resulted in a lower DC. There are already specific rules for using scrolls with UMD that cover the example situation. The clr1/sor6 can either make a DC 30 UMD check to emulate a 15 Wis then risk the caster level/Wis checks to successfully read the scroll, or the character can make a DC 29 UMD check to use the scroll as if raise dead were on the sor spell list then risk easier caster level/Wis check to successfully read the scroll.
EDIT #2: Bobson, you are demanding quick and concise typing from me far too early in the day. :P
You're talking about two different things on this thread. We should clarify which we're trying to discuss.
There are two ways to use a scroll. Either naturally because it's on your class' spell list, or by using UMD.
Cheapy quoted the text on using scrolls naturally. This is what's relevant to an oracle reading a divine scroll, including one she wrote herself. Note that it just requires the "requisite ability score", which is based on the level of the spell (so if you have a 19 in your casting stat, you can read any scroll for your class).
Midnight_Angel quoted part of the text on using a scroll with UMD. The UMD rules have nothing to do with whether or not you're a caster yourself (aside from charisma casters having an easier time of it), and they make little sense since there's no way to tell from a scroll whether a wizard or a sorcerer made it.
Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don't have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check.
(The bolded part is where MA's quote comes in.)
I would say that you can choose any class to cast the scroll as (provided they can cast that spell), and you'd need to have or emulate the appropriate score for that class. But it could be debated.
So, in my example above, I get to choose whether to emulate the stat, as the spell is on a class list of mine, or to emulate the class since my stat for the spell on this not-my-list is high enough?
Even if emulating another class' spellcasting ability is allowable with the, "Emulate a Class Feature," option, emulating being an oracle capable of safely casting raise dead would be a DC 32 UMD check, not a DC 25 check.
Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).It's not 20+spell level, it's 20+effective caster level.
You're right, but for the wrong reason. You don't need to emulate a class feature to use a scroll, since there's specifically a "Use scroll" use of UMD. The check for that is called out as 20+scroll's caster level with an optionally required check for appropriate stat.
You're right, but for the wrong reason. You don't need to emulate a class feature to use a scroll, since there's specifically a "Use scroll" use of UMD. The check for that is called out as 20+scroll's caster level with an optionally required check for appropriate stat.
You caught me in the middle of trying to type out edits and additional comments. ;)
The question that's being asked is "since Cha is the 'appropriate stat' for the Oracle, can someone with a high Charisma (say, a Sorcerer) ignore the UMD Stat Emulation by 'faking' casting as an Oracle instead of Cleric or Druid (if the spell is on the Oracle spell list)?"
RAW: No. UMD requires Wis for divine spells.
Nice DM (like me): Sure, it actually makes sense.