Not in Pathfinder. I don't know about 3pp.
Hmm, not that I know of, but just off the top of my head you could drop casting for sneak attack or rogue talents. Doesn't seem quite even, and your rogues will cry foul, but it's a start.
Did you have anything in mind that you wanted to see?
Huh, it ate my post.
Sandman and Archaeologist archetypes already cover this.
Well I'd do it as a full rogue (1d6 sneak attack for every odd level, talents every even level).
Why would anyone give up spells for sneak attack?
For the same reasons someone would give up ranger spells for hunter's tricks. Which is to say I don't know.
Honestly, I don't know why people play rogues at all.
Maybe my search-fu is off today, as I just can't find anything on this, but has anyone done any work toward a Bard archetype that cuts the spells and replaces them with something comparable?
hey viking.
i had started to ponder one actually, it was a play on the skirmisher ranger that does not get spells but instead it gets tricks.
my idea was to create abilities that can be used instead. Called him a virtuoso and he could use virtuositues or something like that. The abilities available would be based on the perform skills that they have. i.e.
Improvisation (Acting): Every actor find himself onstage at the wrong time, in the wrong place, missing a prop, or not knowing their lines. A truly good actor always is able to improv his way out of it. The Bard may spend 1 Virtuoso point when he finds himself flanked and can immediately take a 5 foot step to get out of it.
would give 8 skills+ int, as well as giving them imp dirty trick for free
I did a trapper ranger once, but I was only dipping for a few levels and wanted the trapfinding -- since I was going to take enough levels to get to spells anyways it was a something for nothing trade for me.
The best i've seen archetypes get for abilities from another class is level-3(Ex: Ultimate Combat Ranger Archetype that grants rage as a barbarian, ranger level-3 equaling barbarian level for rage),so full sneak attack for spells seems kinda...strong. As for why I still play rogues: They're fun, and they're not the best class in the game in terms of power, but with the proper archetypes, feats and strategy, they can still make excellent combatants. Example
Agreed, it would be without precedent to give a bard sneak attack as a rogue. I was just offering a few suggestions off the top of my head.
Rogue's certainly aren't unplayable, but you've got to work a little harder than most classes when you get into combat. I think that Paizo could have done something a bit more exciting with them. IMO, rogues shouldn't focus on damage at all, they should be debuffers. I posted an archetype that lets rogues apply antipaladin cruelties to their sneak attacks at the expense of sneak attack dice. I know there are a few talents and feats that do something similar, but that used up very limited resources.
About the bard though. The only non-NPC class that is a +3/4 attack progression and doesn't have spells is the rogue (and I suppose the ninja now), but the rogue (and ninja) is more combat oriented than the bard (though I've known some bards that could throw-down with the best of them). It will be difficult to keep these classes separated when we remove such an important class feature from the bard.
I like Vuvu's idea of going the skirmisher route (virtuositues is kind of a goofy name though), but hunter's tricks always struck me as much weaker and less versatile than spells, so we might aim a little higher than that when swapping bard spell casting.
It also seems like a lot of book keeping if you need to keep track of your virtuoso times per day (or whatever) on top of your bardic performance points. Maybe we could just double the bardic performance and spend those points to activate effects.
The best i've seen archetypes get for abilities from another class is level-3(Ex: Ultimate Combat Ranger Archetype that grants rage as a barbarian, ranger level-3 equaling barbarian level for rage),so full sneak attack for spells seems kinda...strong. As for why I still play rogues: They're fun, and they're not the best class in the game in terms of power, but with the proper archetypes, feats and strategy, they can still make excellent combatants. ExampleAgreed, it would be without precedent to give a bard sneak attack as a rogue. I was just offering a few suggestions off the top of my head.
Rogue's certainly aren't unplayable, but you've got to work a little harder than most classes when you get into combat. I think that Paizo could have done something a bit more exciting with them. IMO, rogues shouldn't focus on damage at all, they should be debuffers. I posted an archetype that lets rogues apply antipaladin cruelties to their sneak attacks at the expense of sneak attack dice. I know there are a few talents and feats that do something similar, but that used up very limited resources.
About the bard though. The only non-NPC class that is a +3/4 attack progression and doesn't have spells is the rogue (and I suppose the ninja now), but the rogue (and ninja) is more combat oriented than the bard (though I've known some bards that could throw-down with the best of them). It will be difficult to keep these classes separated when we remove such an important class feature from the bard.
I like Vuvu's idea of going the skirmisher route (virtuositues is kind of a goofy name though), but hunter's tricks always struck me as much weaker and less versatile than spells, so we might aim a little higher than that when swapping bard spell casting.
It also seems like a lot of book keeping if you need to keep track of your virtuoso times per day (or whatever) on top of your bardic performance points. Maybe we could just double the bardic performance and spend those points to activate...
Interesting idea to use BP's to activate tricks. I like that a lot. Maybe in addition to the skills bonus, and i like idea of giving Impr dirty trick. I think instead of giving 2 Bardic Performance Rds per level we give 4. Something like my Improvisation idea I think would be 1 BP round. Whereas something like
Gruesome Death (Acting)-When struck in combat you can immediately fake a painful death. Opponents must make a sense motive check opposed by your Acting check + Bard Level. If they fail they believe you are dead and will ignore you, until you either stand up or act against them (in which case they are flat footed)
This would be a 2 Bard round trick
I am actually really starting to feel this idea. I will start writing it up over the next couple of days.
Keeping in mind that spells wil be more powerful, I will make use of some bonus feats and more skills i think.
i will keep posting for feedback
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Wow, this got a bigger turnaround than expected.
The whole thing for me is that 13 of the existing 19 classes use magic, and only 2 of those have an option to swap it out. I just want there to be a guy who wanders around performing songs and telling tales (and getting a mechanical benefit from it) without being able to sling magic around. You don't NEED magic to be a good performer.
I like the idea of Virtuosic Performance as a midpoint between Bardic Music and Rogue/Hunter Tricks. Maybe a good place to look for inspiration would be the Masterpieces from Ultimate Magic or some other source that uses variant performances.
Since the two abilities you posted are tied to Perform (acting), I'm getting an idea that we should have certain Virtuosic Performances tied to different specializations. Maybe just one or two for each and a handful of generic ones.
Thanks for the feedback, guys. I have a tendency to forget how helpful these forums generally are. ^_^
EDIT: I realize that these Virtuosic Performances might have more in common with Rage Powers than Hunter Tricks. Maybe we should explore that route. That or work them like Witch Hexes so that you have no limit on the number of times per day you can use them, but you can only effect a person by each once per day. Just a thought.
As I come up with more performance ideas, I think they will start to compare better to something. Whetehr it be hexes or rage or hunter tricks. And You are right my idea is that they will tie to the perform skills that the bard has (hence my giving them 8 instead of 6). The Bard should have several any way to make use of Versatile performance, and I do plan to come up with a couple that are usable for all Bards. Something like
Scathing Review-You quickly pass judgement on the actions of your foe. Your harsh criticism shakes their confidence. On their next d20 roll they gain minus 1 for every two Bard levels you possess. This uses 4 rounds of Bardic Performance.
I suggest giving the bard the ability to Channel Music (See variant channeling in Ultimate Magic) equal to a cleric of their level. Make it an arcane supernatural ability (if that makes sense lol). Another minor supernatural ability wouldn't hurt in addition to this, such as a sonic damage ranged attack of some kind similar to an alchemist bomb or warlock eldritch blast. Just a thought.
I suggest giving the bard the ability to Channel Music (See variant channeling in Ultimate Magic) equal to a cleric of their level. Make it an arcane supernatural ability (if that makes sense lol). Another minor supernatural ability wouldn't hurt in addition to this, such as a sonic damage ranged attack of some kind similar to an alchemist bomb or warlock eldritch blast. Just a thought.
interesting idea. I like it. I willl find a way to work it in somehow
Wow, this got a bigger turnaround than expected.
The whole thing for me is that 13 of the existing 19 classes use magic, and only 2 of those have an option to swap it out. I just want there to be a guy who wanders around performing songs and telling tales (and getting a mechanical benefit from it) without being able to sling magic around. You don't NEED magic to be a good performer.
I like the idea of Virtuosic Performance as a midpoint between Bardic Music and Rogue/Hunter Tricks. Maybe a good place to look for inspiration would be the Masterpieces from Ultimate Magic or some other source that uses variant performances.
Since the two abilities you posted are tied to Perform (acting), I'm getting an idea that we should have certain Virtuosic Performances tied to different specializations. Maybe just one or two for each and a handful of generic ones.
Thanks for the feedback, guys. I have a tendency to forget how helpful these forums generally are. ^_^
EDIT: I realize that these Virtuosic Performances might have more in common with Rage Powers than Hunter Tricks. Maybe we should explore that route. That or work them like Witch Hexes so that you have no limit on the number of times per day you can use them, but you can only effect a person by each once per day. Just a thought.
I felt the same, so I made a new base class called the Skald. Inspired by the character Herger in The 13th Warrior, this class uses the framework of a Ranger (Attack Bonus, Saves, hit die, armor and weapon profs.) combined with the skill list and Bardic Performance abilities of a Bard. I dropped favored enemy and switched out the Combat Style for straight up Combat Feats and 2nd, 6th, 11th, and 16th. Didn't get much table playtest time, but I was always worried that they had no "power". Maybe some Rogue Talents would moderate this.
i am actively working on the archetype now, I will post it in a few days when i get it finished!
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Huh, it ate my post.
Sandman and Archaeologist archetypes already cover this.Well I'd do it as a full rogue (1d6 sneak attack for every odd level, talents every even level).
Why would anyone give up spells for sneak attack?For the same reasons someone would give up ranger spells for hunter's tricks. Which is to say I don't know.
Honestly, I don't know why people play rogues at all.
Some people play for sneak attack.
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Maybe my search-fu is off today, as I just can't find anything on this, but has anyone done any work toward a Bard archetype that cuts the spells and replaces them with something comparable?
Maybe you'll find this useful.
that is pretty cool, i will look at it closely to to help inspire me!
I know it's not what you had in mind, but honestly:
I would go the other way round and replace the whole "Bardic Performance" BS with something else and give the Bard at 1st level:
Magical Performance
You can disguise V&S spell components by singing and instrument playing (or other performance). An unskilled observer will not be aware of you casting a spell (except the spell itself becomes visible). For every 2 levels, the spellcraft DC to identify your spells increases by +1 and you receive a +1 spellcraft bonus to identify spells cast by other bards.
This way, a "sleep spell" will become a "Lullaby" etc. etc.
(Maybe rework or expand the spell list a little if necessary.)
Now, you might consider giving the bard some rogue tricks or something similar, IDK.
There was the "marshal" in 3.5 that did more or less what you ask for... maybe have a look and adjust to pathfinder?
still working. I have the basic archetype swaps done. Just taking a while to come up with abilities for every performance style.