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In another thread, the following exchange took place. I've moved my reply here, as well as an open call for discussion.
Really, so if I'm facing a mounted character I can use handle animal to make the mount come to me as a move action?
That said, within the game, you can buy a warhorse. You don't have to break it or personally train it. Handle Animal gives anyone the ability to control a trained animal merely by making the appropriate DC skill check.
James, this isn't what I said, and appreciate that you are generalizing the statement for the purpose of constructing a reductio ad absurddum argument. Rather than running down that rabbit hole, how about if we address the general question about who can give commands to an animal.
My statement was made within the context of discussing an unattended cavalier's bonded mount. A number of people were making statements about a warhorse having a special relationship regarding command and control of a warhorse in general being controllable by a limited number of people. This included statements derived from assumptions about real world warhorses.
The situation as described is complicated by a couple of areas that tend to hit areas of the rules that raise varied opinions. The simple case is control of an unattended trained domestic animal. Complications to that include control of mounts vs. unmounted animals as well as the special circumstance of bonded mounts or animal companions.
Both of the latter are areas that are known to result in varied opinions. In the case of mounts in general, mounted combat and the control of mounts is a known problem area in the rules going back to 3.5. PF did little to resolve this. In the case of bonded mounts, this comes down to differences of opinion about the nature of the bond between character and the animal in question. Let's avoid those complications to start and then come back to them.
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A character can buy a trained animal. He doesn't have to train the animal himself. He can direct the trained animal via Handle Animal.
Handle Animal skill: "You are trained at working with animals, and can teach them tricks, get them to follow your simple commands, or even domesticate them."
Handle an Animal task: "Handle an Animal: This task involves commanding an animal to perform a task or trick that it knows. If the animal is wounded or has taken any nonlethal damage or ability score damage, the DC increases by 2. If your check succeeds, the animal performs the task or trick on its next action."
Handle Animal is a skill possessed by the handler. It relates to the control of animals. It requires no relationship between the animal and the handler. It is reasonable to apply circumstance modifiers to controlling an unfamiliar animal. If two people give an animal command, a reasonable mechanism is to resolve it via opposed checks.
In the simple case, anyone has the option to control an animal using the Handle Animal skill.
Am I missing something?
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First: handle animal allow you to give commands to an animal, but don't specify how you do it.
I am not a rider but from what I have read a horse is trained to react to his rider commands that where given through the use of the reins, heels (generally not spurs) and posture on the saddle (for an example of how it work for a combat trained horse you can read the second book of Paskennarion saga by Elisabeth Moon, the author has a farm in Texas and breed horses, so she know what she is speaking of).
So the rider is the one that can handle a horse when it is riding it. It would be extremely difficult fro another character to give orders to it.
Second: for several of the tricks that you can teach to an animal the description say that "you" can make it do x or tat he will do x for you even when not directed. To make it use the trick in another guy favour you have to direct the animal into using t, an example:
Defend (DC 20): The animal defends you (or is ready to defend you if no threat is present), even without any command being given. Alternatively, you can command the animal to defend another specific character.
so unless you are the guy that has trained the animal you have to "push it" to make it do something that has that limitation.
If you, as a GM, feel that it is possible that the animal will accept a command that go against his current owner/handler orders you can allow a opposed handle animals check between the two ould be controllers, with a large bonus for the current controller.
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Market purchased trained animals generally aren't trained to follow orders from a specific owner, so most of the time they will not know some of the trick that require a strict relationship with the owner.
It would be easier to get them to follow a stranger orders.
If a character want a animal that is especially loyal to him but he hasn't the handle animal skill he should spend some time together with the animal while it is trained by a guy with animal handling. That should allow a closer bond between the animal and the owner. At least that is how I handle it in my game.
Use Animal Handling to command someone else's Animal Companion to sit. Watch as owner gets really mad.
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Maybe look at it this way: a success with Handle Animal communicates to an animal that you want it to perform a trick. If you communicate to a person that you want him to do something, whether he will do it depends on his attitude. Perhaps the same holds true: an animal will perform a trick if it is friendly or helpful towards the Handle Animal skill user.
I very much like Starglims interpretation. But what are the rules regarding an animals attitude? Is Handle Animal used for that as well?
Try telling a hostile guard-dog (that is otherwise obedient to his master) to sit...
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Second: for several of the tricks that you can teach to an animal the description say that "you" can make it do x or tat he will do x for you even when not directed. To make it use the trick in another guy favour you have to direct the animal into using t, an example:
Defend (DC 20): The animal defends you (or is ready to defend you if no threat is present), even without any command being given. Alternatively, you can command the animal to defend another specific character.
so unless you are the guy that has trained the animal you have to "push it" to make it do something that has that limitation.
The use of "you" in these areas refers to the person giving the command, not the person training the animal.
Try telling a hostile guard-dog (that is otherwise obedient to his master) to sit...
That can often easily be accomplished with a juicy steak.
Honestly I would say a trained warhorse, esepcially an AC/Bonded Mount with a higher Intelligence will not be handled by anyone but his owner, or anyone the owner specifically authorized (by handing the reins over to the stable-boy for example)
Double especially not if it is currently following an order by it's master. Like Guard or Attack, or is actually been ridden by him.
In all those cases I'd treat handling an animal like trying to Push it. Aka DC 25 and full round action.
Just because the animal knows the tricks, does not mean anyone can tell it to do them. Especially not animals that are trained in such ways that they only accept them from a single person/group of persons.
My girlfriend can make her dog do all kinds of tricks; he knows them so well that sometimes he'll do almost all of them in a row as soon as she lets him out of his kennel to play in the mornings (EDIT: without commands or treats).
I can only get him to sit, and sometimes not even that. Forget "come here."
If I have food, he will listen to me a bit more, but there are verbal and somatic components to making him perform. ;)
Also, I think Mythbusters had a trained guard dog tested to see if using meat would work. I want to say of all the methods they tried to get past him, meat was one of two that didn't work. I might be remembering wrong though.
The 3.5 Rules of the Game article has some good common-sense advice. For instance, "The rules don't say so, but an animal you train must be fairly tame and must trust you. Wild or fearful animals do not learn anything unless you can calm them and develop a rapport with them."
I think giving an unknown animal commands is fine, but giving them in combat would probly be a case of pushing the animal. In the case of a warhorse you are not controlling while someone has the reigns i would think it nearly impossible.
As for guard dogs isnt this why the commands are often in a foreign language.
The difference with all the above comments in regards to folks getting their pets to do something just showcases the difference between companions and all other animals. If an animal is trained to do something, it doesn't matter who issues the command, UNLESS there is some kind of a bond with the owner. Guard dogs take commands from anyone who knows them (and I mean guard dogs, not pets) a riding horse will follow whoever has the reigns until the person on it issues another command.
Yes, someone next to a horse can make a handle animal to get the animal to do something the rider doesn't want, until the rider issues another command that over rides it. If we wanted to rules lawyer it, you can issue all the commands you want, on your turn, but the animal is not going to do anything until its turn, and in the case of a horse, odds are the rider and horse go at the same time, so the rider's commands will ALMOST always override all other commands.
If someone wants to waste their round timing things and calling commands to screw up an opposing rider, why can't they do it? What is the reasoning not to (how does it unbalance things)?
How about an opposed Handle Animal check with a penalty to be able to command a controlled animal?
If you beat the owner/handler's Handle Animal (or maybe Ride) check by X then you can get the animal to do what you'd like.
I'd make it a decent penalty... maybe -10?
Folks with maxed out HA should be able to calm a guard dog. You could use the diplomacy type chart to change the attitude in this case? Unless actively attacking, guard animals would start at unfriendly. Riding and pack animals would start at Indifferent.
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The use of "you" in these areas refers to the person giving the command, not the person training the animal.Second: for several of the tricks that you can teach to an animal the description say that "you" can make it do x or tat he will do x for you even when not directed. To make it use the trick in another guy favour you have to direct the animal into using t, an example:
Defend (DC 20): The animal defends you (or is ready to defend you if no threat is present), even without any command being given. Alternatively, you can command the animal to defend another specific character.
so unless you are the guy that has trained the animal you have to "push it" to make it do something that has that limitation.
Read the defend trick I cited.
There is no command involved when the animal try to defend you. It do that by its own initiative. You need to command it to get it to defend someone that it is not you, the one that taught it the trick.If we accept your interpretation the animal will never defend anyone by its initiative as no one has given the order.
You in the trick list is referred to the guy that has taught the trick to the animal.
I figure the "you" does refer to the owner of the animal, or the one that the animal consideres as such. That's the only thing that makes sense and is how such animals behave.
Of course most people with bonded mounts will have Handle Animal too and train them themselves.
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The use of "you" in these areas refers to the person giving the command, not the person training the animal.Second: for several of the tricks that you can teach to an animal the description say that "you" can make it do x or tat he will do x for you even when not directed. To make it use the trick in another guy favour you have to direct the animal into using t, an example:
Defend (DC 20): The animal defends you (or is ready to defend you if no threat is present), even without any command being given. Alternatively, you can command the animal to defend another specific character.
so unless you are the guy that has trained the animal you have to "push it" to make it do something that has that limitation.
Read the defend trick I cited.
There is no command involved when the animal try to defend you. It do that by its own initiative. You need to command it to get it to defend someone that it is not you, the one that taught it the trick.If we accept your interpretation the animal will never defend anyone by its initiative as no one has given the order.
You in the trick list is referred to the guy that has taught the trick to the animal.
Sorry, I guess we'll have to disagree. By my interpretation, the animal will act to defend whomever it has been charged to defend.
Let's say I want my guard dog to defend my date, Mary. "Spot, defend Mary." Now, if Mary is attacked, Spot immediately attacks (without an attack command being required).
Tomorrow, I break up with Mary and start dating Sue. "Spot, defend Sue." Now, if Sue is attacked, Spot acts to defend Sue. Spot is no longer defending Mary, Spot is defending Sue.
Spot, Sue and I go for a walk. Mary sees us. Mary strides up in a fury, and slaps me in the face. Spot yawns. Mary then turns to Sue, and slaps her in the face. Spot rips Mary's throat out.
-There is an intersting story from the Philadelphia zoo. An elephant was known to be difficult, so much so, they had a man come out to yell at it in a wheelchair (former trainer dying of cancer) the elephant would listen to him but nobody else....
-Clearly a animal companion would be a similar case. I have a pug, but sleep, snore, and fart on command are not usefull 'tricks' in most games.
-I agree with above post 100% animals change loyalty LESS than humans...
a little common sense is called for here. The animal doesn't just ignore the person it knows and trusts without some exceptional or supernatural ability.
Spot, Sue and I go for a walk. Mary sees us. Mary strides up in a fury, and slaps me in the face. Spot yawns.
You don't own a dog, or know someone who owns a dog, do you?
I have never heard of a dog that disregards someone attacking its master.
Also, what is the central matter is: "Can you use HA to make an animal attack its master or his allies?"
And I will go big fat N.O. on that one. Not unless it is illoyal or wild. I cannot even imagine a well trained and loyal animal attacking it's master.
the dog whisperer could make it attack it's master..
the dog whisperer could make it attack it's master..
Make it stop biting him, yes. Make it attack its wonder, no. Even a druid/rangers ability wouldn't d =o that because they run off diplomacy, and diplomacy doesn't let you make a creature violate their nature.
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You don't own a dog, or know someone who owns a dog, do you?Spot, Sue and I go for a walk. Mary sees us. Mary strides up in a fury, and slaps me in the face. Spot yawns.
Yes, I own a dog. Great dog. Follows me around everywhere. However, this is the Rules forum, not "Pet Stories: The Previously Untold Tale of Ball Chasing Spaniels."
I have never heard of a dog that disregards someone attacking its master.
Also, what is the central matter is: "Can you use HA to make an animal attack its master or his allies?"
And I will go big fat N.O. on that one. Not unless it is illoyal or wild. I cannot even imagine a well trained and loyal animal attacking it's master.
That's cool. We're talking about conditions that can be as varied as the master being a vicious fear-mongering brute who bought the dog yesterday from Dingo Dogtrainer to a 20th level character heavily invested in handling the dog. We're talking about someone looking to suborn the animal who can range from Dingo Dogtrainer, who owned him yesterday and raised him from a pup, or a character with wild empathy and +30 Handle animal, to a goblin hiding a dog slicer behind his back.
There is an engineering adage, "All things are possible, but some things are damned expensive."
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Again, Howie23:
Defend (DC 20):
a) The animal defends you (or is ready to defend you if no threat is present), even without any command being given.
b) Alternatively, you can command the animal to defend another specific character.
From a) we get that:
Spot will still defend you automatically and will act even without a command.
From b) we get that:
you can give the command command "Spot, defend Mary", and Spot will defend Mary when she is attacked. but that don't invalidate a). The trick isn't "defend 1 person, don't care about any other person or thing".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntY7vf5X87k
Seriously, what most of you seem to forget is that to even try controlling someone else's animal, you'd need to know the exact command at first, which could be a word in any given language, a fantasy word, a gesture...
And even if you know it, most animals wont respond to anyone but their owner. Try telling a police dog to attack his owner.