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Okay, so one of my players wants to design a ship in game that can have horses propel it instead of using rowers. How do I go about this... I looked up some rules in Ultimate combat, and it had good rules for horses pulling land vehicles, but lacked a bit of detail on water vehicles.
He looked up some Roman and Chinese ships that were smaller in size, but were propelled by Oxen. I wasn't sure how large the ship would have to be. Nor am I sure how fast they can help propel the ship through the water. Any thoughts?!?
Which of the player's characters has max ranks in "knowledge engineering" and "shipbuilding" and an intelligence of 20+?
Just allow the thing to go as fast as a human powered boat. The advantage in strength from the horse is going to be offset by lesser efficiency, heavier boat (to be strong enough to hold the horse and all the gears and things that will turn the horse's motion into thrust) and the weight of the horse.
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Just be sure your player is aware of the reduction in available cargo space from the livestock as well as their feed.
As to the mechanism, you could have a gear works assembly that has the critters marching in a circle, turning the gears which in turn powers the oars' motion. Such an assembly would need to be fairly large (the central axis would need to be really sturdy).
Also we're not talking small critters ... about 9'- 11' in length for the larger range ... expect about 3x that minimum for width of the ship so people can move around the critters and the critters can be lead to and from their stalls (and should probably be closer to 4x-5x the width). having multiple animal stations, each powering a battery of oars would also be a possibility, though timing of the oar strokes could get funky.
As to speed, it would most likely be comparable to a craft powered by oarsmen, with the exception of being able to put in the extra push of power for short durations. Unless you want to have then folks in charge of the critters do a Handle Animal check. Of course, failure could have all sorts of nasty effect.
And a bunch of oxen, or worse aurochs, panicking in the hold during a storm could be all sorts of interesting ...
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The wizard actually has profession engineering and 22 int. The other person has profession sailor as well as handle animal and an 18 wisdom. There are 2 players that are wanting to do it. The player that looked up the information on the Roman ships were vague and he's the one with the wisdom modifier.
Zexcir... you don't need the details of how the ship works to have the ship in your game.
If you feel the players' characters are sufficiently skilled and intelligent, then it just happens. Just have the horse(s) in a chamber in the ship marching in a circle and hand-wave how it all turns into propulsion.
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Just be sure your player is aware of the reduction in available cargo space from the livestock as well as their feed.
As to the mechanism, you could have a gear works assembly that has the critters marching in a circle, turning the gears which in turn powers the oars' motion. Such an assembly would need to be fairly large (the central axis would need to be really sturdy).
Also we're not talking small critters ... about 9'- 11' in length for the larger range ... expect about 3x that minimum for width of the ship so people can move around the critters and the critters can be lead to and from their stalls (and should probably be closer to 4x-5x the width). having multiple animal stations, each powering a battery of oars would also be a possibility, though timing of the oar strokes could get funky.
As to speed, it would most likely be comparable to a craft powered by oarsmen, with the exception of being able to put in the extra push of power for short durations. Unless you want to have then folks in charge of the critters do a Handle Animal check. Of course, failure could have all sorts of nasty effect.
And a bunch of oxen, or worse aurochs, panicking in the hold during a storm could be all sorts of interesting ...
Paddle wheel, not oars with those gears. There are a lot of reasons not to do this, as you have pointed out, which is why it wasn't done.
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Just be sure your player is aware of the reduction in available cargo space from the livestock as well as their feed.
When I mentioned this, two of the players just shrugged, because they think it would be cool to have a horse powered ship. Thus making my life more difficult.
And a bunch of oxen, or worse aurochs, panicking in the hold during a storm could be all sorts of interesting ...
I will definitely take this into consideration.... This could make for some good roleplaying opportunities as well as for the players to facepalm.
As to speed, it would most likely be comparable to a craft powered by oarsmen, with the exception of being able to put in the extra push of power for short durations. Unless you want to have then folks in charge of the critters do a Handle Animal check. Of course, failure could have all sorts of nasty effect.
I was thinking about having the speed stay the same, but allow them to have less crew members to power the ship and not have to rely on wind; however. They mentioned that their druid could heal, train and keep the animals in good shape. I think having lots of nasty stuff go wrong with a failed check is a good idea.
I'm not trying to say no to the players without looking into it and seeing what other peoples thoughts are on it.. Especially when they are doing research and giving me proof in historical instances of use.
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Zexcir... you don't need the details of how the ship works to have the ship in your game.
If you feel the players' characters are sufficiently skilled and intelligent, then it just happens. Just have the horse(s) in a chamber in the ship marching in a circle and hand-wave how it all turns into propulsion.
I agree, and disagree, because there will be some ship to ship combat, and the potential for them to be attacked etc.
I agree, and disagree, because there will be some ship to ship combat, and the potential for them to be attacked etc.Zexcir... you don't need the details of how the ship works to have the ship in your game.
If you feel the players' characters are sufficiently skilled and intelligent, then it just happens. Just have the horse(s) in a chamber in the ship marching in a circle and hand-wave how it all turns into propulsion.
There's a ship. With a deck. Maybe more than one deck. Those decks hold cargo, guns, and people. Except the bottom deck has a chamber that allows a horse or two to move in a circle, harnessed to a rotating pole.
Thrust happens.
Unless your ship to ship combat is going to happen under the boat, I don't see why "how it works" is important.
If your PCs were going to be onboard a zeppelin would you need to know how it works?
How many people know how a jet engine works? Yet they fly every day.
You can do as you like of course, I just don't see the point of needing to know how it works. If you really want to have some physical implication of the horse-drive, put paddlewheels on the back of the boat and have gears below the bottom deck. That should be more detail than you actually need, but at least it gives you the ability now to say "The ogre who boarded your ship has broken the paddlewheel shaft, so now the boat won't move."
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Celestial Navigations (with Geoffery Lewis) had a "piece" called "Horses" (on their "Chapter 1" CD), that was a story that involved a ship that sailed to the New World that used 30 horses to pull them out of "The Doldrums"...
In the story, the main character was in charge of caring for the horses, and when it came time to use them, he went out on a longboat ahead of the animals and called out to them (Handle Animal check)...
The ship in the story was a "Square Rigger", and the horses were strung out in two lines of 15 each...
As for speed, the story indicated that it took all day and all night, so I'd say it'd be too slow for practical use (at least for a big sailing ship)...
Very insightful. I'll look up that piece. I was thinking it would be slow too, but you know how players can be when you say "Well I'm pretty sure...." So that's why I decided to post it here. I'll definitely use that as a reference though! Thanks!
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Celestial Navigations (with Geoffery Lewis) had a "piece" called "Horses" (on their "Chapter 1" CD), that was a story that involved a ship that sailed to the New World that used 30 horses to pull them out of "The Doldrums"...
In the story, the main character was in charge of caring for the horses, and when it came time to use them, he went out on a longboat ahead of the animals and called out to them (Handle Animal check)...
The ship in the story was a "Square Rigger", and the horses were strung out in two lines of 15 each...
As for speed, the story indicated that it took all day and all night, so I'd say it'd be too slow for practical use (at least for a big sailing ship)...
Look up the care and feeding of horses. 25 pounds of dry fodder and 10-12 gallons of water per day, per horse. These are just riding horses (light - medium horses). Draft horses are larger with greater requirements. Horse are delicate with fairly strict dietary requirements and they don't like the motion of a boat. Cattle eat about 3-4% of their body weight daily, plus water. Not as finicky as horses, but they have their problems. Wikipedia can give you the basics (I had to look this up once). Seiges are such fun.
And ask Nature Boy, the Druid, why he thinks it's a good idea to stuff large land animals into a, for them, unnatural environment that will stress them?
Also horses and oxen crap.
A lot.
A whole lot.
A lot more than you think.
And it's actually even more than that.
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There's a ship. With a deck. Maybe more than one deck. Those decks hold cargo, guns, and people. Except the bottom deck has a chamber that allows a horse or two to move in a circle, harnessed to a rotating pole.
Thrust happens.
Unless your ship to ship combat is going to happen under the boat, I don't see why "how it works" is important.
If your PCs were going to be onboard a zeppelin would you need to know how it works?
How many people know how a jet engine works? Yet they fly every day.
You can do as you like of course, I just don't see the point of needing to know how it works. If you really want to have some physical implication of the horse-drive, put paddlewheels on the back of the boat and have gears below the bottom deck. That should be more detail than you actually need, but at least it gives you the ability now to say "The ogre who boarded your ship has broken the paddlewheel shaft, so now the boat won't move."
I am fairly familiar with modern ships. Secondly, the horrible part about this is I game with engineers. Both of them are very detail oriented, hence the questions. But both aren't going to bog down with drawing out and designing ship designs. I'm just looking for an overview, let them use their skill points that they pumped into engineering as well as handle animal. It gives the game flavor when I dialogue about life on board their ship.
Also, it is very likely that there will be combat inside the ship. There are many ways that this could happen. Transportation is the easiest. Like posts above, bad things can happen while using horse propelled ship, things I wouldn't have thought of if I didn't post here. I'm bouncing ideas off the forum and I already have a better idea how this is going to work out. No need for the witty remark.
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Look up the care and feeding of horses. 25 pounds of dry fodder and 10-12 gallons of water per day, per horse. These are just riding horses (light - medium horses). Draft horses are larger with greater requirements. Horse are delicate with fairly strict dietary requirements and they don't like the motion of a boat. Cattle eat about 3-4% of their body weight daily, plus water. Not as finicky as horses, but they have their problems. Wikipedia can give you the basics (I had to look this up once). Seiges are such fun.
And ask Nature Boy, the Druid, why he thinks it's a good idea to stuff large land animals into a, for them, unnatural environment that will stress them?
LMFAO, I will definitely ask him. Checking out wikipedia now, thanks ;)
Zexcir, I game with a mechanical engineer, a physicist, a chemical engineer, a software engineer, an architect and a quality assurance engineer.
I hand wave details all the time in games.
After all, they don't know how magic missile works either.
As far as the witty remark... well, if you come to the boards seeking wisdom, expect some wit from time to time too.
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Dragon, Magic Missile I can deal with as it's it's a very common aspect of the game. I even mentioned using a binding spell using elementals... My players response, but I want animals to propel the ship.... "I can draw out some diagrams..."
I never claimed that I was unique in who I game with. I was just saying that the two specific people who wanted this information. I gave you background so that you understand, but obviously your arrogance overlooked that ;), but thanks for the advice! :)
I'd think horse-treadmills would work better than horses traveling in a circle: Pics
But there were circular ones too, but the circle moved, not the horse
Horse on covered turntable (a treadwheel)
Warning: This one is a pdf document with way more than you probably care to know: History of horse-whims, teamboats, treadwheels and treadmills.
Made an account just to see what my DM said:P I don't have a problem with bound elementals, I just don't know how that would work. As this is my first campaign, I've only studied how the druid works. I just figured having animals versus elementals went with my class better. It would give more utility to my hand animal skill.
I also never thought about the impact of storms, touche.
Paddle wheel
Correct, that is what the old Roman Ox Boat design used, but there was no good image other than an oil painting of one on google. There is a ferry boat that is what gave me the inspiration. Instead of the large disc, I was thinking like the mechanism used when raising an anchor. Same equipment and rotation, but it rotates those gears instead.
Also horses and oxen crap.A lot.
A whole lot.
A lot more than you think.
And it's actually even more than that.
I thought that was why we had catapults?
You guys had a lot of good thoughts, I might have to stick with my dolphin chariot idea :P
Dragon, Magic Missile I can deal with as it's it's a very common aspect of the game. I even mentioned using a binding spell using elementals... My players response, but I want animals to propel the ship.... "I can draw out some diagrams..."
I never claimed that I was unique in who I game with. I was just saying that the two specific people who wanted this information. I gave you background so that you understand, but obviously your arrogance overlooked that ;), but thanks for the advice! :)
You're welcome!
I thought you were just going to give the horses waterwalking and let them pull the boat!
I thought you were just going to give the horses waterwalking and let them pull the boat!
LOL, that's actually a cool idea.