"Shelyn" is Zon-Kuthon's safeword.
or his Berserk Button, depending on who use it and how.
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Here's my impression of it:
Abadar: I think Abadar's stance on sexual relations would mostly be concerned with marriage, though for different reasons than others. Like it's been said before, he probably views marriage less about sex and more through the lens of inheritance law. Extramarital affairs aren't bad in and of themselves, but when a bastard is the result it creates hassle for the bureaucracy and your own personal life, so while not banned it's probably sternly discouraged. Abadar doesn't really get majorly worked up over anything.
Asmodeus: As it's been said before, Asmodeus' primary goal in relation to sex is the domination of another. While his misogyny has been brought up, it also applies to other types of relationships too, including same-sex ones. His views on marriage probably would reflect this also, with the "husband" figure being dominant to the "wife" figure.
Calistria: It's pretty easy to characterize her as the typical hedonistic party animal, especially since you really can't talk about Calistria without talking about prostitutes and other stuff. Still, as it's been mentioned before, that's not all she's about.
Cayden Cailean: I'm not sure if when Cayden and Thais were mortals that they'd had carnal relations, but the vibe I got personally was more that they were good friends rather than sexual partners, because Cayden respected her too much. That's sort of how I envision how Caydenites view sex. Relationships based on mutual respect and frienship. If that includes sex, it's not that big a deal. If it doesn't, that's not a big deal either. As long as you treat your partner as an equal and the two of you enjoy yourselves, Cayden's OK with it.
Desna: Desna's always been a hard deity for me to figure out, personality-wise. It just has never seemed well-defined for me. I guess it'd be very similar to Cayden's, with mutual respect and not really caring about what goes on in the bedroom.
Erastil: As it's been said before, Erastil may be old-fashioned, but he's not puritanical. He doesn't care what two consenting adults do in private, but he'd prefer it if those two consenting adults settled down and had kids. He's more about the results of the sex than the sex itself. So long as the family is happy and healthy, it's got Old Deadeye's blessing.
Gorum: I sort of feel this has to be divided between Gorum himself and his followers. As basically a giant suit of armor animated by sheer violence, I don't think Gorum HAS a sex drive, and if you asked him about it he'd probably say "What the heck are you talkin' about? What's sex? You wanna fight or not?" Gorum's followers, however, probably approach it in different ways. Some probably do it the Asmodean way, treating civilians as spoils of war to do with as they please (though this may be because I'm reading The Black Company right now and Darling's introduction is still fresh in my mind). Others probably see it as a way to breed more warriors for the battles of the future. Or as a way to cool off after a hard-fought battle. Or the Klingon way. I think, since Gorum's dogma is specific and yet loosely defined, his followers run the gamut of sexual practices.
Gozreh: Gozreh seems like Gorum for similar reasons. As male and female, Gozreh needs no partner, but basically views sex as part of the natural order. As such, Gozreh worshipers likely don't care much about their sexual practices, as they have no bearing on their faith. If they have sex, they have sex. If they don't, then they don't. If they have kids, that's just what happens when you have sex. Nothing wrong with it.
Iomedae: Iomedae I see as more a proponent of traditional marriage, about equal with Erastil, but for different reasons. With Iomedae, it's largely about that mutual respect thing I keep coming back too. She doesn't necessarily care who you're sleeping with, so long as you and your partner respect each other. Some may use the courtly love approach, but I see that as largely optional. What's important is fighting to protect one another, and being a goddess of knighthood and justice, she probably likes lovers who worship her swearing oaths to each-other.
Irori: Again, this is another one where the personal practice of the god in question may be different from the followers. Irori himself probably views marriage as a distraction, but some of his followers may believe it's a part of the path to enlightenment. I know there are examples of this in either Hindu or Buddhist tradition, which is what Irori is inspired from. But as it's said over and over with Irori's faithful, no two paths to enlightenment are the same, so no two followers' sexual practices will be the same.
Lamashtu: Lamashtu's easy, both in a categorical and sexual sense. For her and her followers sex is largely utilitarian in purpose, solely for the creation of more monstrous children. It's all about breeding with her, and it's that stance on sex that we have to thank for the existence of most of the monstrous races.
Nethys: As with other gods here, this is one where god and follower have varying opinions. Nethys in all honesty probably does not care about sex. Magic is more important than sex to him. Some of his followers however may see sex as an expression of his creative aspect. Others may practice family planning to pass on magical talent to future generations of sorcerers. They may decide to use their powers to augment their sex life, or to manipulate partners that would otherwise ignore them (the sleazebags). Or like their god, they may not care at all.
Norgorber: Norgorber I think would be the kind of god who sees sex as a means to an end. Extramarital affairs make for great blackmail material, after all, and seduction can be a powerful tool in a spy or assassin's arsenal. Other than how it can aid a worshiper in achieving their goals, however, I don't think Norgorber cares all that much.
Pharasma: Pharasma is another deity who's not interested in the act of sex so much as the results. She's not just the goddess of death and fate, but also of birth, with a lot of her followers acting as midwives. From what I understand, she's got no problem with contraceptives, but DOES have problems with abortions, as that's cutting a child's fate short before it even has a chance to begin. But other than that, she probably doesn't care about it. If it's not resulting in a baby, it's not worth paying attention too.
Rovagug: Like I think with Gorum, I'd say Rovagug doesn't HAVE a sex drive, and his followers don't care about it either. They're rampaging lunatics who wanna watch the world burn. Why would they want to CREATE something through sex? If they do have sex, it most likely is rape, probably a captive treated as a spoil of war and then discarded when it inevitably breaks.
Sarenrae: I like how she was described by Erastil in his write-up when it discusses his opinion of other deities: "This woman has such fire in her, such spirit, I wonder if any man could tame her. She would surely make a fine wife and mother--and her husband wouldn't dare have a wandering eye, lest he earn her temper right quick!" I see her as kind of falling between the active Calistria and more passive Shelyn, not necessarily caring about the kind of sex or what it produces, but big on that mutual respect I keep harping on. Another important facet would probably be honesty, which is also her purview. She probably wouldn't approve of extramarital affairs that are kept secret or are unlawful, because she feels lying doesn't help anyone or anything.
Shelyn: Once again, MUTUAL RESPECT. And more importantly, Shelyn does have specific views on sex, in that carnal affection should not be the sole basis of a relationship. She's cool with marriages and extramarital affairs, but the most important thing is that these are loving relationships based on mutual respect, as well as love for any kids the sex produces, regardless of legitimacy. She's probably not as kinky as Calistria, mainly because she's more wholesome than Calistria. So long as you're happy and loving, Shelyn blesses your relationship.
Torag: Torag's another god whose views are hard to pin down, especially since he hasn't gotten his own write-up yet. But I think he's another god focused more on the results of sex than the actual act of it. After all, he's a god of creation, and what creation can be greater than that of new life? The building of a dynasty? He probably also places strong emphasis on family since he's happily married and has a devoted cadre of siblings and kids that make up the rest of the dwarven pantheon. As for sex itself, Torag probably considers recreational sex unproductive. What's the point if you're not making a kid? You could be improving your forge-work with that time!
Urgathoa: Like with Calistria, Urgathoa's opinions on sex were pretty much laid out in her write-up. There's really nothing else I have to add to it.
Zon-Kuthon: Again, it's pretty obvious what Zon-Kuthon and his followers think about sex.
Sex is natural human instinct and if any god is against that they are a fool. There is no people on the earth without it, and there is no person that is healthy that does not crave it.
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Sex is natural human instinct and if any god is against that they are a fool. There is no people on the earth without it, and there is no person that is healthy that does not crave it.
Yes, but some gods likely believe that those cravings should be controlled, either because they believe in personal discipline or to make sure the other partner is not hurt, physically or emotionally.
Sure, at least in my write-up it seems like several gods are against it, but I was trying to clearly state that it's not that they're AGAINST sex, but that they DON'T CARE about it. Sorry if I was unclear about that.
Here's my impression of it:
Shelyn: Once again, MUTUAL RESPECT. And more importantly, Shelyn does have specific views on sex, in that carnal affection should not be the sole basis of a relationship. She's cool with marriages and extramarital affairs, but the most important thing is that these are loving relationships based on mutual respect, as well as love for any kids the sex produces, regardless of legitimacy. She's probably not as kinky as Calistria, mainly because she's more wholesome than Calistria. So long as you're happy and loving, Shelyn blesses your relationship.
(Confused)Wait, wait. Why would she be o.k. with the extra marital affairs? That seems counter intuitive and counter to her purview.
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(Confused)Wait, wait. Why would she be o.k. with the extra marital affairs? That seems counter intuitive and counter to her purview.Here's my impression of it:
Shelyn: Once again, MUTUAL RESPECT. And more importantly, Shelyn does have specific views on sex, in that carnal affection should not be the sole basis of a relationship. She's cool with marriages and extramarital affairs, but the most important thing is that these are loving relationships based on mutual respect, as well as love for any kids the sex produces, regardless of legitimacy. She's probably not as kinky as Calistria, mainly because she's more wholesome than Calistria. So long as you're happy and loving, Shelyn blesses your relationship.
Says so right in her write-up in Night of Frozen Shadows. Shelyn's purview is love of all kinds, even that kind of love that exists outside a legal marriage. If two people love each other, that's all Shelyn cares about. Extramarital affairs that are only about sex aren't something she'd approve of (that's Calistria's gig), but it it's love, ACTUAL LOVE, then she's totally for it.
In all seriousness, always figured safewords would be more Shelyn's thing than Zon-Kuthon's.
(every rose has its thorn and all that)
and every Knight has its Dawn... enjoyable discussion so far
Says so right in her write-up in Night of Frozen Shadows. Shelyn's purview is love of all kinds, even that kind of love that exists outside a legal marriage. If two people love each other, that's all Shelyn cares about. Extramarital affairs that are only about sex aren't something she'd approve of (that's Calistria's gig), but it it's love, ACTUAL LOVE, then she's totally for it.
Reread. Oh, yeah (Done in Gurr style). The caveats are important. Love and not hurting the spouse.
Archpaladin Zousha brought up an interest aspect of Sarenrae that I hadn't thought of: passion. Maybe for Sarenraen's, if there isn't burning passion, then it is a distraction. I think an argument could be made for certain types of love being the only accepted loves in certain religions.
Look at real world religions, they're full of does and don'ts regarding sex. Strict religions are even frown upon recreational sex. There is also the issue of arranged marriage and women as property in some religions.
I'm both happy and a little mystified by gender relations in D&D worlds, including Golarion. Women have been property, objects of scorn and lust, and Monster Makers(tm) (see Lamashtu in Golarion and Lilith in gnosticism). Yet, much of this isn't present in our fantasy worlds.
Wishful thinking? Cause it's kind of nice to not have to worry about it, especially when there are women playing at the table and you don't want to have to constantly roleplay dark ages misogyny.
A little off thread, but I'm the OP, so DEAL with it!
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Look at real world religions, they're full of does and don'ts regarding sex. Strict religions are even frown upon recreational sex. There is also the issue of arranged marriage and women as property in some religions.I'm both happy and a little mystified by gender relations in D&D worlds, including Golarion. Women have been property, objects of scorn and lust, and Monster Makers(tm) (see Lamashtu in Golarion and Lilith in gnosticism). Yet, much of this isn't present in our fantasy worlds.
Wishful thinking? Cause it's kind of nice to not have to worry about it, especially when there are women playing at the table and you don't want to have to constantly roleplay dark ages misogyny.
I agree, its nice to skip past all that. I wouldn't like role playing rampant misogyny, my male players wouldn't like it, my female players wouldn't like it, and it doesn't really make sense in a world with female deities (Ex: If Iomedae can wield a sword, why can't I?)
I agree, its nice to skip past all that. I wouldn't like role playing rampant misogyny, my male players wouldn't like it, my female players wouldn't like it, and it doesn't really make sense in a world with female deities (Ex: If Iomedae can wield a sword, why can't I?)
There are quite a few example of IRL of misogynic societies with religions that include warrior goddesses
There are quite a few example of IRL of misogynic societies with religions that include warrior goddessesI agree, its nice to skip past all that. I wouldn't like role playing rampant misogyny, my male players wouldn't like it, my female players wouldn't like it, and it doesn't really make sense in a world with female deities (Ex: If Iomedae can wield a sword, why can't I?)
Athena/Minerva for example.
Athena/Minerva for example.There are quite a few example of IRL of misogynic societies with religions that include warrior goddessesI agree, its nice to skip past all that. I wouldn't like role playing rampant misogyny, my male players wouldn't like it, my female players wouldn't like it, and it doesn't really make sense in a world with female deities (Ex: If Iomedae can wield a sword, why can't I?)
They also had Cybele and her ritually castrated consort, Atis.
Look at real world religions, they're full of does and don'ts regarding sex. Strict religions are even frown upon recreational sex. There is also the issue of arranged marriage and women as property in some religions.
And just to toss in my nonproductive thoughts! Just because the God's philosophy is one thing, does not mean that there are not religious institutions focusing on more strict or loose interpretations of the the God's will.
Greg
Look at real world religions, they're full of does and don'ts regarding sex. Strict religions are even frown upon recreational sex. There is also the issue of arranged marriage and women as property in some religions.
And just to toss in my nonproductive thoughts! Just because the God's philosophy is one thing, does not mean that there are not religious institutions focusing on more strict or loose interpretations of the the God's will.
Greg
Well, Christianity is a religion that say: "Make love not war", but almost forbid "making love" and is responsible for a lot of wars.
So yeah, that can happen.
+1 to Belle and Greg - it's usually the worshippers and not the gods that make rules.
So I guess the biggest reveal here, the metamorphosis of the whole question, is what do the churches allow and encourage?
And now a FUN(tm) question: does each god/goddess have church schisms and different interpretations among peoples?
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Erastil wouldn't give a fig so long as there's a stable, loving community and babies getting made somehow. Whether that "somehow" involves once-a-year ritual boy-on-girl sex for purposes of procreation during a Beltane-ish type celebration, priests or priestesses who've figured out how to do artificial insemination, or out-and-out magic, he wouldn't much care. He might think it needlessly complicated compared to the obvious alternative, but he's a good god and knows you can't order someone to be happy with something they don't like.
The "argument to nature" really starts to fall down with a Nature god once you start getting into them granting spells. Is magic natural? Are gods natural? If they're not, then Erastil is an amazing hypocrite. But I think the way his priests would argue is that nature is expansive and adaptive.
I'm going to disagree here. Eristal is also the deity of "traditional" family and community, and would probably disapprove of homosexuality, though not aggressivly. I think your putting to much modern POV on it and paganism, particularly in the view of homosexuality.
The other problem is, I think, that Paizo admitted that the main write up for Eristal (I think from Kingmaker) was mostly wrong and that was only a minor view, but it and others that contradict it muddle the issue.
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Erastil wouldn't give a fig so long as there's a stable, loving community and babies getting made somehow. Whether that "somehow" involves once-a-year ritual boy-on-girl sex for purposes of procreation during a Beltane-ish type celebration, priests or priestesses who've figured out how to do artificial insemination, or out-and-out magic, he wouldn't much care. He might think it needlessly complicated compared to the obvious alternative, but he's a good god and knows you can't order someone to be happy with something they don't like.
The "argument to nature" really starts to fall down with a Nature god once you start getting into them granting spells. Is magic natural? Are gods natural? If they're not, then Erastil is an amazing hypocrite. But I think the way his priests would argue is that nature is expansive and adaptive.
I'm going to disagree here. Eristal is also the deity of "traditional" family and community, and would probably disapprove of homosexuality, though not aggressivly. I think your putting to much modern POV on it and paganism, particularly in the view of homosexuality.
The other problem is, I think, that Paizo admitted that the main write up for Eristal (I think from Kingmaker) was mostly wrong and that was only a minor view, but it and others that contradict it muddle the issue.
When you've got a stag-headed god of family and community, I'd say it's more sensible to look to paganism for "tradition" than to Christianity. I mean, if we're looking at stag-headed fertility gods, not hard to find Cernunnos, the antlered Celtic god, and Herne the hunter. Roll them together and let them borrow Odin's eyepatch? And if you follow some of the legends, Cernunnos had twin children who were in an incestuous relationship with his blessing.
And what would a stag-headed nature god's view be of polyamory? I mean, the king stag tends to have his harem of does, and the young bucks go out and crash antlers until one of them can finally challenge him. And if a couple of the young bucks who's probably never be king stag decide to rut with each other? It seems exceedingly anachronistic for Erastil to bleat "Unnatural!" like some frothing Puritan.
In any case, the gods are done in fairly broad strokes so individual game masters can come up with an interpretation that works well for them and their players. If you want Erastil to go with the current Judeo-Christian version of "traditional marriage," then go for it. I may think that looks like Jehovah wearing moose antlers and an eyepatch, but I'm certain it's an interpretation that works for many games and gamers.
Personally, I look at Erastil as being Odin/Wotan if he survived Ragnarok but lost everyone he held dear, most especially his beloved Frigga/Fricka, mother of his children, love of his life, but now she's gone and no one but him even remembers her name. And so he goes off to wander, and in his wanderings takes on the new name of Erastil. There are other gods, some of them old like him, some of them new. He becomes the god of families because he's old, no one is being all-father and he doesn't want the job, but he's willing to be all-grandfather.
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I like to imagine Desna still has a very alien outlook on sex.
"Hey, check out the nice gargrablthox on that perso...oh...that's a nose. :("
Seriously though, I'd combine an alien outlook with the spiritual connection approach Geraint has. The bits and pieces people have are just tools for souls to express themselves to one another, stuff like that.
The thing that'd be most likely to make Desna fall for someone would be if they were the "walk a thousand miles for you" type.
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How do they each feel about sexual relationships amongst gender and species.
Obviously Cayden Caiiean doesn't care, only that you're having fun.
Calistria seems to want more, more, MORE.
Iomedae?
Sarenrae?
Gorum? (maybe rape?)
Groetus can't be bothered, or am I wrong?
I wonder if Asmodeus is strict about only married sex (because of the contracts).Others?
Thoughts?
Abadar: do it for enrichment.
Asmodeus: do it to dominate your partner.Calistria: do it for profit.
Cayden Cailean: do it for fun.
Desna: do it to dream.
Erastil: do it to procreate, and with your spouse only.
Gorum: do it to win a fight.
Gozreh: do it in the wild.
Iomedae: do it for glory.
Irori: do it at your best.
Lamashtu: do it to procreate (monsters).
Nethys: do it to soothe. Or to hurt. It's a kind of magic...
Norgorber: do it to kill.
Pharasma: do it. Or don't.
Rovagug: arghlebarghleyaaourgh!
Sarenrae: do it for greater good.
Shelyn: do it artistically.
Torag: do it, think about it, plan it, and reach the apex of this craft.
Urgathoa: do it to sate your hunger.
Zon-Kuthon: do it to inflict pain.
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When you've got a stag-headed god of family and community, I'd say it's more sensible to look to paganism for "tradition" than to Christianity. I mean, if we're looking at stag-headed fertility gods, not hard to find Cernunnos, the antlered Celtic god, and Herne the hunter. Roll them together and let them borrow Odin's eyepatch? And if you follow some of the legends, Cernunnos had twin children who were in an incestuous relationship with his blessing.
And what would a stag-headed nature god's view be of polyamory? I mean, the king stag tends to have his harem of does, and the young bucks go out and crash antlers until...
I'm not suggesting that we look at him in a Christian light. I'm suggesting that you are adding too much modern sensibilities to paganism in regards to homosexuality for the deity of traditional communities, family, and hearth. Otherwise, I agree with you, especially in the old (grandfather) part.
The problem with viewing Erastil as a post-Ragnarock Odin/Wotan, which by-the-way is a viewpoint I lurv, thank-you, thank-you, thank-you; is that, that would wind up being an argument against homosexuality, or at least 'playing the woman's part', as it was seen among the nordic peoples, given that in addition to losing his eye, the agreement Odin made with the dwarves for magic/power included allowing them to 'use him' for a span of time & that caused him to take a serious hit in terms of his respect from the other Aesir.