How do they each feel about sexual relationships amongst gender and species.
Obviously Cayden Caiiean doesn't care, only that you're having fun.
Calistria seems to want more, more, MORE.
Iomedae?
Sarenrae?
Gorum? (maybe rape?)
Groetus can't be bothered, or am I wrong?
I wonder if Asmodeus is strict about only married sex (because of the contracts).
Others?
Thoughts?
Erastil says if you have kids you should get married. And stay married.
Asmodeus wants you to get married so he can tempt you into breaking your vows. Sex is something you have with all the slave girls. Or slave boys. As long as they're slaves.
Abadar is in favor of marriage so it's clear who gets to inherit the property afterwards.
Iomedae wants you to aspire towards marriage because it makes you want to be a worthy hero for the beloved other.
No ones quite sure about Irori, but it's rumored that one reason for him to be in the Inner Sea region is to stay away from someone waiting to marry him....
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The lawful deities demand that it be done in a very systematic process. "First the subjects in question must take off their clothes, neatly fold them, and put them into a pile organized by color. Then they must position themselves so that their formation is symmetric, except that some asymmetric positions are perfectly acceptable. Please consult your deity's manual on the subject to know what positions are acceptable and which are a big no-no."
In some cases:
If it isn't solving all of your problems, then you aren't having enough.
Per Pathfinder 47: Ashes at Dawn, Urgathoa has very open views on sex and invites her clergy to partake in whatever sexual acts they find pleasurable. She also seems to be okay with birth control and ambivalent toward abortion (although pregnancies among her worshipers are uncommon, due to the large number of undead and availability of contraceptives), something that puts her further at odds with Pharasma.
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The Prophecies of the Kalistrade are, as far as I know, the only religion / philosophy that has specific sexual mandates.
Even Calistria likely has her share of priests/priestesses who are more interested in the 'vengeance' side of her portfolio than the 'lust' side.
I'd imagine Urgathoa rolls her eyes at the concept of *breeding,* since the whole 'bringing new life into the world' thing is terribly 15 minutes ago, by her standards (isn't biological life that fragile, squishy and unsanitary condition what we are trying to get away from and replace with cold, sterile immortality, kids?), but she's certainly not adverse to 'serving one's hunger' with the sexual act.
Lamashtu, Mother of Monsters, seems to have a broader-than-normal view on sex, which basically boils down to, 'Yes, to all.'
Irori *could* be seen as a self-denying ascetic, and I'm sure he's got plenty of followers who seek to perfect themselves in that sort of way, denying themselves food, water, sex, etc. But surely there are a few who seek to not just be perfect kung fu masters, sublimating their passions into their violence, and have instead decided to become a perfect husband or wife, a perfect parent or a perfect lover, and look at the kama sutra as 'a good place to beginners to start'...
I'd imagine Urgathoa rolls her eyes at the concept of *breeding,* since the whole 'bringing new life into the world' thing is terribly 15 minutes ago...
Breeding is fine if you enjoy it, I would imagine, though adoption is more common for Urgathoans- often, the parents are killed by undead of some sort and then the orphaned child is raised in the teaching of the Pallid Princess. GRIM!
Besides, having children has other uses than just creating more hedons:
[M]any temples have at least one woman, called a "blood mother," whose role is to bear children, either to raise them as members of the church or to offer them as sacrifices in horrid rituals.
I love writes-ups on evil deities.
I love writes-ups on evil deities.
I know! Me too! They're always so messed up and it makes their cultists nice and villainous.
I'd imagine Urgathoa rolls her eyes at the concept of *breeding,* since the whole 'bringing new life into the world' thing is terribly 15 minutes ago, by her standards (isn't biological life that fragile, squishy and unsanitary condition what we are trying to get away from and replace with cold, sterile immortality, kids?), but she's certainly not adverse to 'serving one's hunger' with the sexual act.
While I agree with a lot of what you said, I would think getting away from UNSANITARY is about the last thing I would ever think of for Urgathoa. Urgathoa, Queen of the Unclean, Origin of Disease. More like get away from that fragile, squishy, limited form, and replace it with cold filty immortality... :D
A few of my interpretations:
Abadar: I'd guess indifference towards sex, marraiage is viewed as a contract concerning property and inheritance. Concubines optional as long as the marriage contract allows them. Having children in marriage would be important for inheritance of status and wealth. Having children out of wedlock would be frowned upon as it messess with inheritance - however, in case of siring a bastard the father would be expected to provide proper support for the child, according to the child's lower status than legitimate children (think Jon Snow position in Game Of Thrones).
Asmodeus: Callous and somewhat brutal view of sex - it would be seen similarly to Ancient Roman customs as strictly tied to dominance with one side being dominating and the other being dominated (often related to the act of penetration). Obviously the higher ranking partner would be expected to dominate and lower ranking to be dominated, doing otherwise would be sodomy (i.e. unnatural sexual act). Lower status partner would be also forbidden from having affairs or keeping concubines while the higher status partner would be allowed to have them. Bastards have explicitly lower status and cannot inherit but fathers may officially recognize them and provide them with minor titles and wealth but cannot give them more than legitimate children.
Nethys: The mad god of magic would probably have very ambivalent view of sex. At times he would be enthusiastic and positive, at other apathetic, dismissing it as irrelevant fleshy distraction and at some times outwardly hostile with the apathetic stance being the most common. I think that his strong destructive and careless streak would mean that the responsibility is not important factor in his teachings.
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If you've seen Hostel, you've probably seen what I believe to be Zon-Kuthon's general outlook on normal, healthy sexual activities.
If you've seen Se7en, most of that film depicts normal, common fetishes the parishoners of the Lord of Darkness share.
Remember, kids: the safe word is.... bahahaha! Sorry, I couldn't help myself. Yes, there is no safe word. Get used to it.
Asmodeus: Callous and somewhat brutal view of sex - it would be seen similarly to Ancient Roman customs as strictly tied to dominance with one side being dominating and the other being dominated (often related to the act of penetration). Obviously the higher ranking partner would be expected to dominate and lower ranking to be dominated, doing otherwise would be sodomy (i.e. unnatural sexual act). Lower status partner would be also forbidden from having affairs or keeping concubines while the higher status partner would be allowed to have them. Bastards have explicitly lower status and cannot inherit but fathers may officially recognize them and provide them with minor titles and wealth but cannot give them more than legitimate children.
Keep in mind also that Asmodeus is known to be a raging misogynist.
Random Opinions as I Retrieve Them From My Brain:
Abadar- Whatever happens to be legal in your neck of the woods. Kids are a good thing, since they're the next generation of civilization, and cities need people.
Asmodeus- Enjoy yourself at the expense of as many women as you can. Bonus points for degradation through legal restrictions, such as leveraging a contract far beyond the spirit of the writing.
Cayden Cailean- Eat, drink, and be merry. I doubt he much worries about trifling things like social mores- whatever's clever.
Desna- I doubt she's keen on meaningless flings, somehow, despite her chaotic alignment. Marriage is a lovely institution, but she's none too keen on institutions.
Erastil- Get married, make babies. Continue making babies. Babies are good.
Lamashtu- Mate frequently. Make babies. Continue making babies. Babies are good.
Rovagug- I see ol' Rover as utterly indifferent to procreation (it kinda runs against his nature), but violence seems to be in his bag of tricks. Yeesh.
Zon-Kuthon- Watch Hellraiser. Imagine it as your sex life. Yeesh.
Shelyn- Always, always make sure you care for your partner- and that you leave them in better shape than you found them, if leaving happens.
Torag- Forge a family.
Sarenrae- As Desna, but a little friendlier on the concept of formal legal bonds between couples.
Irori- Either an ascetic disregard for sex as a worldly distraction or bland indifference.
Gozreh- Do what comes naturally.
Pharasma- Given her interest in birth, and the fact tat her clergy frequently serve as midwives? I'd say they very definitely know their way around human reproduction. We know she's anti-abortion, but less down on contraception. Presumably, she just asks that everyone show some responsibility.
Nethys- Most likely doesn't have time for that sort of thing.
Gorum- I imagine he simply advises doing things with... enthusiasm.
Calistria- Have fun. I doubt, however, that she has much interest in long-term attachments.
Urgathoa- On record as encouraging her followers to indulge their appetites.
Norgorber- Somehow, I see his clergy fostering relationships with a nasty, secretive edge to them.
First, you recite poetry from the Gorumskarat
Then, she begins throwing things at you...(bonus points for reference)
My forehead isn't rubbery enough to wave impressively when I duck a lot...
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Rovagug- I see ol' Rover as utterly indifferent to procreation (it kinda runs against his nature), but violence seems to be in his bag of tricks. Yeesh.
Ah, but then how do we explain the Spawn? A mad god of destruction locked away for eternity. That's got to get lonely. That could be a hell of an interesting (and possibly squicky) adventure. Finding the mate of Rovagug. This is all assuming he didn't just slough off a scale or body part and animate it.
Rovagug has Spawn, not children. I'd rather not inquire into the process too closely, but I'm pretty sure a mate is not involved.
As for Pharasma, there's also the fact she's the goddess of fate. Is it your fate to have sex? If so, when? Well, when you do, is it your fate to become a parent? If so, a priestess will be waiting....
Asmodeus: Callous and somewhat brutal view of sex - it would be seen similarly to Ancient Roman customs as strictly tied to dominance with one side being dominating and the other being dominated (often related to the act of penetration). Obviously the higher ranking partner would be expected to dominate and lower ranking to be dominated, doing otherwise would be sodomy (i.e. unnatural sexual act). Lower status partner would be also forbidden from having affairs or keeping concubines while the higher status partner would be allowed to have them. Bastards have explicitly lower status and cannot inherit but fathers may officially recognize them and provide them with minor titles and wealth but cannot give them more than legitimate children.
Keep in mind also that Asmodeus is known to be a raging misogynist.
In Pathfinder, but yeah, his cult must have twisted rules on/for everything.
Irori might preach tantric sex with worthy partners. The Kama Sutra is basically yoga sex.
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Huh, from what I can tell...
Abadar-Being a god of modernity as well as order, I doubt his ideals really apply in this area. Seems outside of his forte...I'm not even sure what his views on prostitution would be, considering one could have different interpretations as to the usefulness/corruption of such a thing in society.
Asmodeus-Well, he's a god of tyranny, so for him, I suppose being "the top" is most important. His views on sex probably don't allow actual rape (a chaotic act if there ever was one) but the sex his worshippers would have is probably only one step away...
Cayden Cailien-Whatever man. I'd assume his thoughts are the basic ideal of the '60s in the US: If it feels good, do it. He'd set limits, obviously, because he is a deity of freedom, he is also a deity of good, so abuses would not be allowed, and sex is something for the enjoyment of both parties rather than the empowerment of one over the other.
Calistria-Being a goddess of sex...just look at her portfolio and you should get a good idea. I feel like with her, its less of a pleasure thing than really just lust for its own sake. I don't know.
Desna-I'm not sure what a dream-n-travel goddess would think on sex, but since she's good aligned, I'd guess she's against most abuses of the act.
Erastil-Old, old fashioned. He's a family man first, so he'd dissaproe of any sexual preferences and acts that aren't done for the purpose of reproduction. Frivolous or pleasure sex is something he'd frown at, and any kind of non-heterosexual sex acts that subscribe to basic norms (keep it in species, etc.) would probably be okay, but the rest would be a no-no. Good doesn't always mean open-minded...
Gorum-When I think of this guy's views on sex, I think back on what Bronn states in George R.R. Martin's A Game of Thrones..."nothing like a woman after a fight." He's a bloodlust battle deity, so I'm guessing that he views sex as a "chill down" or something, or an outlet for hot-bloodedness. An extension of the fight, rather than an act of creation or pleasure.
Gozreh-Same thing as Erastil, but for different reasons. Being a nature deity, he'd approve of only that which is, well "natural." By this i mean that he views sex solely for the purpose to which it was originally made by nature: to reproduce. The fact that it is pleasurable is, probably in his opinion, just the incentive, and you don't worship the carrot at the end of the stick...you're supposed to worship the goal to which it leads.
Iomedae-A chivalrous goddess, she would have a slightly more restricted view on sex than the Accidental God, but less constrained than Old Deadeye. She approves of a courtly sort of love, most like, and a respectful sort of union, where its more about honor and duty. She's disapprove of sex for its own sake, definitely, but only if its done for love and does not dishonor either individual or others.
Irori-No idea...
Lamashtu-Hm...a chaotic evil fertility deity...*sigh* add up the numbers, and say it with me...
Nethys-What's a crazy magic god got to do with sex. That doesn't seem to be even near his portfolio.
Norgorber-Interesting here. Sex done in secret would probably appeal to him, since he's a god of secrets. No idea otheerwise.
Pharasma-So long as the souls aren't somehow abused, she'd probably not care. I have no idea what Pharasma cares about, but her opinions on sex are probably, well, non-existent except when used as part of the total judgment of a soul. Who knows with her, though some of her followers (especially up in Ustalav) view any kind of pleasure as a bad idea...
Rovagug-...
Sarenrae-A sun goddess and good aligned? Fiery passion would be her forte, I guess.
Shelyn-Express love. No matter how you do it, do so passionately and gently, and make your partner as happy as possible. The importance is not the act itself or the pleasure it brings each individual, but rather the love they feel by being combined in the most initmate manner imaginable.
Torag-See Erastil, I'd guess, but a little more practical. if he'd even care.
Urgathoa-Indulge in whatever sick fantasies you have without regard for consequences or for anything other than the indulgence of desire. Not for love. Not for anything else. Just giving into the id.
Zon-Kuthon-Break out the chains and the dominion and the pain...
Norgorber, as the god of secrets could be also called upon during secret, forbidden affairs. He might view them with favor (as they are secret) or may frown upon as potential breaches of security. He could also preach using pillow talk to wrest the secrets of others and generally using sex to manipulate others for own gains.
Rovagug- the R-Word and wrecking the place.
Calistria: While sex is certainly a part of her teachings, I get the impression that she is less interested in romance. Instead, you get lust, desire, flings, complications, uncertainty, anger, hatreds, thrown plates and cutlery, on-and-off-relationships that drag out for decades, provocations, non-standard relationship models such as polyamory, and so on. She is definitely not all sweetness and roses (that's Shelyn). For Calistria, sex is not a goal in itself, rather it's often used as a way to get somewhere else, whether it's influence, inheritance, making someone feel good about themselves, status...
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I'd imagine Pharasma would be utterly indifferent to sex, apart from its role in progeny, with one major and distinct exception: true love.
If two people are fated to be together, that falls squarely under her bailiwick. Most the time this would be fine, except when it isn't. Specifically, that "true love even after death" trope where the vampire or ghost comes back to be with their fated true love centuries later when they're reborn. I'm certain that Pharasma thought it was much neater when there wasn't undeath, and reincarnation could just tie up the loose ends after a few rinse cycles if it didn't work out the first time. And while just killing the undead and his/her mortal (for the moment) true love would seem an easy solution, expecting things to just pick up where they left off with new mortal incarnations is easier said than done. I'd expect Pharasma to give instructions to her priests to butt out of any situations where there was some matter of fate concerned.
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Gozreh-Same thing as Erastil, but for different reasons. Being a nature deity, he'd approve of only that which is, well "natural." By this i mean that he views sex solely for the purpose to which it was originally made by nature: to reproduce. The fact that it is pleasurable is, probably in his opinion, just the incentive, and you don't worship the carrot at the end of the stick...you're supposed to worship the goal to which it leads.
Well... there's homosexuality in many species, so that's still natural.
Gozreh-Same thing as Erastil, but for different reasons. Being a nature deity, he'd approve of only that which is, well "natural." By this i mean that he views sex solely for the purpose to which it was originally made by nature: to reproduce. The fact that it is pleasurable is, probably in his opinion, just the incentive, and you don't worship the carrot at the end of the stick...you're supposed to worship the goal to which it leads.Well... there's homosexuality in many species, so that's still natural.
Erastil wouldn't be concerned about homosexuality, he would expect the person/persons involved to contribute to the community in some other way.
I think Erastil would be more than happy for married couples to have a happy healthy sex life... Happy couples make strong families. So within the bounds of your societies view of marriage be that, the multi partnered lifestyle of a nomad community or a female dominated hunter gather tribal group as long as the families and communities are strong and happy then Erastil would be happy.
I think too many people apply a western European - judeao/Christian perspective to Erastil when he is such a hugely pagan figure. In all Polytheistic society's the gods have multiple personalities and aspects some good and some bad...If Erastil was part of the Australian Aboriginal pantheon there would be vast differences in his aspects and personality and they way he was worshiped to be compaired to Erastil as part of the Maori of New Zealands pantheon.
Erastil wouldn't give a fig so long as there's a stable, loving community and babies getting made somehow. Whether that "somehow" involves once-a-year ritual boy-on-girl sex for purposes of procreation during a Beltane-ish type celebration, priests or priestesses who've figured out how to do artificial insemination, or out-and-out magic, he wouldn't much care. He might think it needlessly complicated compared to the obvious alternative, but he's a good god and knows you can't order someone to be happy with something they don't like.
The "argument to nature" really starts to fall down with a Nature god once you start getting into them granting spells. Is magic natural? Are gods natural? If they're not, then Erastil is an amazing hypocrite. But I think the way his priests would argue is that nature is expansive and adaptive. Twigs do not naturally form into perfect bird nests, but birds have the instinct to put them together in that form to make a happy home for their children. Foxes dig burrows to raise their kits, beavers build lodges, bees build hives, and so on. That humans build houses? Hardly remarkable, and while not natural in the small sense, certainly natural in the larger sense. Magic? That some humans know how to weave it or have learned how is obvious. It's a tool that humans use.
Laws are the same sort of thing, and kinship patterns and the laws surrounding these fall under this. Do the laws form a stable nest in which to raise children? Then they're good laws and Erastil approves. Do the laws cause misery and discord? Then they are bad laws and need to be changed, even if they were good and stable laws for centuries before.
Laws about who gets to have sex with whom are part of this, as are the punishments for breaking these laws. What is the punishment? Fine? Censure? Banishment? Death? And is the punishment worse for the community than the crime?
If, in some community, the potter is caught having sex with the weaver, and this is forbidden because potters can only mate with other potters, occasionally flint-knappers, and maybe bakers but only in alternate leap years as part of the "bun in oven" festival. And the potter is supposed to be put to death and the weaver banished and, um....
Exactly why do we have this law again anyway?
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Exactly why do we have this law again anyway?
To watch desperation settle across the face of the lawspeaker as he tries to remember the exact wording of it, of course.
Gorum - in my views Gorum is actaully gender less and IS a walking piece of armor, a walking avatar of war that has gained the status of deity. Sex is not a concept, let alone a word to Gorum. So what do I think Gorum's view is? He does not care what you do because he rather see you on the battlefield but 'understands' that people have their limits.
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I believe the common opinion is:
Shelyn: "Aww sweet."
Calistria: "Oooh kinky."
Zon-Kuthon: "AAAAAUUUUGHHH! SAFEWORD!"
* * *
Other assorted deities:
Iomedae: "Go forth and make more soldiers for the good fight."
Erastil: "What happens between a husband and wife behind closed doors is their business. Just make sure you raise those kids right."
Cayden Caillean: "Who did I wake up next to?"
Desna: "This was nice, but... I have to go."
Sarenrae: "That burning sensation is my infinite love."
Nethys: "Check it out sex magick!"
Gozreh: "Birds do it, bees do it, flowers do it. So y'know go on."
Gorum: "Love is a battlefield."
Rovagug: "Whatevs, Imma eat it anyway."
Erastil wouldn't be concerned about homosexuality, he would expect the person/persons involved to contribute to the community in some other way.
I think Erastil would be more than happy for married couples to have a happy healthy sex life... Happy couples make strong families. So within the bounds of your societies view of marriage be that, the multi partnered lifestyle of a nomad community or a female dominated hunter gather tribal group as long as the families and communities are strong and happy then Erastil would be happy.
I think too many people apply a western European - judeao/Christian perspective to Erastil when he is such a hugely pagan figure. In all Polytheistic society's the gods have multiple personalities and aspects some good and some bad...If Erastil was part of the Australian Aboriginal pantheon there would be vast differences in his aspects and personality and they way he was worshiped to be compaired to Erastil as part of the Maori of New Zealands pantheon.
I think you are SO totally right about the varied aspects of gods and how I think it's much cooler to think of each of the gods as transcendent creatures beyond mortal/human understanding/morality. Even Asmodeus at times could be seen as a hero (i.e. the quelling of Rovagug). Even some of Asmodeus's attitudes line up with what I think of as desirable and maybe even good?
In the case of Rovagug, is an insect bad? Is an alien mind bad? Is something whose nature is to destroy bad or just bad to us?
Also, ince everyone is giving such great notes, I wanted to be a quick devils advocate on some of the assumptions I've been seeing about the more Neutral gods (as well as some others:
Abadar - I've been seeing some opinions saying that God Gold Key would be against sex outside of marriage but I think he would see the bigger picture in regards to commitment and faithfulness. Depending on the nation, it isn't The Law to be married. LN alignment would seem to point to a "Do what you will but with purpose and forethought."
Erastil -What 8th dwarf and others have said, loving, non-procreative sex draws us close and creates community.
Nethys - I think it's not fair to say he wouldn't care, rather, is opinions and practices might be unfathomably alien and inscrutable. Like opening a yawning portal into the nothingness right next to the bed...for ambience.
Norgorber - I was thinking Eyes Wide Shut parties...same with Calistria?
Urgathoa - Can the undead engage in sexual activity? I'm sure in some cases they can (i.e vampires?) So wouldn't she be all about it in the right cases? She does have a very pretty top half after all. ;>
Zon_Kuthon, now theres a party animal. Really though for sexual practices, religion is only one part. The Orks of Belkzen might have differant sexual practices than the Gnolls of the Mana wastes, but still worship Lamashtu for example.
EXACTLY! EXACTLY! What an incredible insight! Seriously! One worshipper of Calistria might be falling in love left and right and the other might be just enjoying the physical side. THEY ARE BOTH RIGHT.
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Erastil wouldn't give a fig so long as there's a stable, loving community and babies getting made somehow. Whether that "somehow" involves once-a-year ritual boy-on-girl sex for purposes of procreation during a Beltane-ish type celebration, priests or priestesses who've figured out how to do artificial insemination, or out-and-out magic, he wouldn't much care. He might think it needlessly complicated compared to the obvious alternative, but he's a good god and knows you can't order someone to be happy with something they don't like.
Priests of Erastil are known to prepare Impregnate Man for this very situation.
Urgathoa - Can the undead engage in sexual activity? I'm sure in some cases they can (i.e vampires?) So wouldn't she be all about it in the right cases? She does have a very pretty top half after all. ;>
In the Rival Guide, there is a ghoul who is somewhat mentioned as being better looking now than she was in life (to be fair, she had serious skin problems when alive).
Overall, I would say it depends on the type of Undead and the partner morality/species/race/religion/culture/etc...
And it is hard to screw a ghost without being incorporal yourself.
This is an interesting thought experiment:
Torag (and other largely racial dieties) I think would be very big on increasing the population size of their chosen race. I could see Torag being against things like birth control and would encourage individuals to marry and produce children, since how else are they going to gain influence in the world.
Gorum I could see taking some odd views of sex. For one, as god of battle, he would also be very associated with the sacking of cities. So he probably would be a okay with some pretty nasty stuff, such as rape. On the other hand, he might actually endorse things like sexual relationships amongst the troops, because it is a good way of building comradely. You will fight a lot harder if not only your life was at stake, but also that of your lover. I think homosexuality was endorsed amongst some ancient Greek cities for just this reason.
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"Shelyn" is Zon-Kuthon's safeword.