What's the most damage you can get out of vital strike? Let's assume 10th level, standard wbl.
|
I might go more in depth with loot etc. later, but for now:
Start with the highest dice weapon, so greatsword or greataxe.
Oracle of metal 2, barbarian 8; this nets lead blades.
Accelerated Drinker trait and a bandoleer of potions of enlarge person. Required feats are Vital Strike (of course) and Furious Finish.
Buffed with those two, we've got a large sized barbarian vital striking for 8d6 plus strength; if he uses Furious Finish it's an automatic 48 damage plus strength, and what's more, he'll soon be immune to the fatigue that the feat brings.
I might go more in depth with loot etc. later, but for now:
Start with the highest dice weapon, so greatsword or greataxe.
Oracle of metal 2, barbarian 8; this nets lead blades.
Accelerated Drinker trait and a bandoleer of potions of enlarge person. Required feats are Vital Strike (of course) and Furious Finish.
Buffed with those two, we've got a large sized barbarian vital striking for 8d6 plus strength; if he uses Furious Finish it's an automatic 48 damage plus strength, and what's more, he'll soon be immune to the fatigue that the feat brings.
I think I read somewhere size increases don't stack? I remember reading someone saying it in a recent thread about an animal companion
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Lead blades isn't a size increase; it just makes the weapon hit as though it were one size larger. It stacks.
Okay, I've got a bit more time to do this, so I'll stat out a barbarian 8/oracle 2 for you and see what the DPR is like. Let's make him buffed with those two things too so I don't have to draw multiple statblocks.
N (Enlarged) Medium humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +13
DEFENCE
AC 15, touch 8, flat-footed 13 (+7 armour, +1 deflection, +2 Dex, +1 natural armour, -2 rage, -3 reckless abandon, -1 size)
Hp 109 (8d12 +2d8 +48)
Fort +12, Ref +6, Will +9
Immune fatigue
OFFENCE
Speed 50 ft.
Melee +1 frost furious greatsword (Power Attack) +22/+14 (4d6+24/19-20 +1d6 cold)
or Vital Strike (Power Attack) +22 (8d6+24/19-20 +1d6 fire)
Ranged SHUT UP
Special Attacks non-quickened touch of rage :(
Base Statistics: When not enlarged, enraged, and buffed with lead blades, he does less damage and has less health.
STATISTICS
Str 26, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 15
Feats Eldritch Heritage, Furious Finish, Furious Focus, Power Attack, Skill Focus: Survival, Vital Strike
Skills Acrobatics +14, Perception +13, Survival +19
SQ Rage Powers (Elemental Rage, Lesser Elemental Rage, Moment of Clarity, Reckless Abandon
Gear (62,000 gp)
18,350 gp +1 frost furious greatsword
16,000 gp belt of giant's strength +4
7,200 gp +1 light fortification mithral breastplate
1,000 gp potions of enlarge person (20)
2,000 gp handy haversack
5,500 gp boots of striding and springing
4,000 gp cloak of resistance +2
2,000 gp ring of protection +1
2,500 gp ring of feather fall
2,000 gp amulet of natural armour +1
I could have gone more in depth, but this will get the point across. I set him up this way to pick up Improved Eldritch Heritage at level 11.
Average AC for a CR 10 is 24, so this guy misses only on a 1 while raging when including Reckless Abandon. Of course he activates Furious Finish every time he Vital Strikes, because he's immune to fatigue. This also leaves him free to always use Elemental Rage and Lesser Elemental Rage, for an extra 1d6 of electricity and acid damage to go with his frost.
Damage on a Vital Strike is therefore 8d6 (maximized) +24 + 3d6 elemental: average damage 82.5
.95 x 82.5 + 0.95 x 48 x 0.1 = 82.935 DPR
Compare that with his full attack routine:
Damage is 4d6+24+3d6 and 4d6+24+2d6 on his second attack; average is 48.5 and 45.
.95 x 48.5 + 0.95 x 41.5 x 0.1 = 50.0175
.55 x 45 + 0.55 x 38 x 0.1 = 26.84
= 76.8575 DPR
So Vital Strike is actually higher damage for this guy. Of course, haste would change that dramatically, and when he gets his third attack at level 12 it might also skew the balance, at least until level 13 when he can pick up Improved Vital Strike.
if you're okay with the ranged counterpart of vital strike go with double hackbut.
if you're okay with the ranged counterpart of vital strike go with double hackbut.
If you want to post double hackbut vital strike stats, go for it. Let's see how high it gets.
Lead blades isn't a size increase; it just makes the weapon hit as though it were one size larger. It stacks.
Okay, I've got a bit more time to do this, so I'll stat out a barbarian 8/oracle 2 for you and see what the DPR is like. Let's make him buffed with those two things too so I don't have to draw multiple statblocks.
** spoiler omitted **
I could have gone more in depth, but this will get the point across. I set him up this way to pick up Improved Eldritch Heritage at level 11.
Average AC for a CR 10 is 24, so this guy misses only on a 1 while raging when including Reckless Abandon. Of course he activates Furious Finish...
Awesome. Looks good to me. I'm thinking of a Druid build with a T-Rex companion going for a vital strike build. Will post the build shortly. Mind letting me know the formula for DPR?
Druid: who cares, he's got 5th level spells and access to Animal Growth
Size: large
31,000gp
Init +5; Senses Low light vision, scent
Defense
AC 21 (+10 natural, +2 dex, -1 size)
hp 58 (9d8+18)
Fort +8, Ref +9, Will +7
Offense
Speed 30 ft.
Melee bite +14 (3d6+2d6+22 plus grab)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Statistics
Str 26, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 3, Wis 15, Cha 10
Base Atk +6
Feats (5) INA (Bite), Vital Strike, Weapon Focus (Bite), power attack, Iron Will
SQ Powerful Bite
Powerful Bite (Ex) A
tyrannosaurus applies
twice its Strength
modifier to bite
damage.
Evasion, devotion
+1 vicious amulet of mighty fists 20,000
Boots of levitation 7500
With animal growth + GMF
+4/+4
Huge, bite +19 (4d6+2d6+30 plus grab)
avg 51, top out at 66.
Would strongjaw stack with Animal growth and what would the damage be on the bite?
Hmm, I wonder if you can somehow include the Animal Aspect spell in there somewhere, specifically, the Gorilla. Maybe a Monk UMD's a wand of Lead Blades, Animal Aspect, and Enlarge Person?
An 9th level Monk (as that's the level he can take Vital Strike) would have a Vital Strike of 8d8 (1d10 -> 2d8 Enlarge Person -> 3d8 Lead Blades -> 4d8 Animal Aspect - Gorilla). Perhaps a Str based Monk that wears Armor and Power Attacks. I don't know, I've never been one for calculating damage, so I'll leave that up to others.
[Edit] BTW, that 9th level Monk has a Battle Cry when attacking.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Someone posted a rather horrific combination a while back. Go Druid with a level of Barbarian and take Vital Strike and Furious Finish (you'll need a level of Fighter as well to get this by level 10). Wild Shape into a Behemoth Hippopotamus (base bite damage: 4d8), then pile on Strong Jaw and Improved Natural Attack (now 12d8). Maximize it with Furious Finish, and you are looking at 192 base damage, before Strength or Power Attack, with a single Vital Strike. It will be less consistent than Mergy's build, but the individual strikes will be larger.
What's the most damage you can get out of vital strike? Let's assume 10th level, standard wbl.
People will rage about it, but Stone Giant (level 8 equivalent by Monsters as PCs rules) plus 2 levels of metal oracle for Lead Blades. Wield a huge bastard sword with 2 hands and quaff a potion of enlarge person or have it cast on you (permanency works too but can be dispelled).
Base damage is 4d6->6d8 enlarge->8d6 w/lead blades. Vital Strike brings you to 16d6 or 56 average damage.
The druid that Mort the Cleverly named mentioned is more damage though (but a lot more complicated :P).
Mergy, I'm sure I'm just missing something, but in your build, why is he immune to fatigue?
I would guess it's because he opted for the Lame curse, like most Barbarians who dip Oracle.
Can't be that. It's only a 2 level dip and you need Oracle 5 to be immune to fatigue.Mergy, I'm sure I'm just missing something, but in your build, why is he immune to fatigue?I would guess it's because he opted for the Lame curse, like most Barbarians who dip Oracle.
To quote the class feature's entry:
"An oracle’s curse is based on her oracle level plus one for every two levels or Hit Dice other than oracle."
|
|
And that would be the something I was missing. Thanks! :)Can't be that. It's only a 2 level dip and you need Oracle 5 to be immune to fatigue.Mergy, I'm sure I'm just missing something, but in your build, why is he immune to fatigue?I would guess it's because he opted for the Lame curse, like most Barbarians who dip Oracle.To quote the class feature's entry:
"An oracle’s curse is based on her oracle level plus one for every two levels or Hit Dice other than oracle."
Yeah, the synergy between the two classes is excellent. Rage cycling to always use Furious Finish and Lesser Elemental Rage means consistent and mobile damage; it's not the highest DPR you could pull off at level 10, but it's competitive and doesn't require a full attack. That's good, because chugging a potion with the Accelerated Drinker trait is a move action.
EDIT: Actually, I just thought of something. His rage drops when he uses Furious Finish, so his AC actually goes up to 20 at the end of his turn. That's neat.
Unfortunately, with Furious Finish, even the lame curse doesn't make you immune to the fatigue caused by it
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Furious Finish's statement does not limit it to Tireless Rage.
If you do, your rage immediately ends, and you are fatigued (even if you would not normally be).
Nothing in there about Tireless Rage. I am not saying that the intent might not have been for Tireless Rage but it simply isnt there.
I would treat that text as bypassing fatigue immunity.
3.5/Pathfinder is a game of exceptions. I believe this is an exception to immunity.
- Gauss
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Furious Finish's statement does not limit it to Tireless Rage.
If you do, your rage immediately ends, and you are fatigued (even if you would not normally be).Nothing in there about Tireless Rage. I am not saying that the intent might not have been for Tireless Rage but it simply isnt there.
I would treat that text as bypassing fatigue immunity.
3.5/Pathfinder is a game of exceptions. I believe this is an exception to immunity.
- Gauss
I second the opinion.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I think I agree with Mergy on this one. If Furious Focus bypassed the immunity, how long would you make it last for? Would it last for a normal duration compared to how long you raged? One round? The feat doesn't specify. I would think that being immune to fatigue is different than having an ability that makes you not fatigued after raging.Furious Finish's statement does not limit it to Tireless Rage.
If you do, your rage immediately ends, and you are fatigued (even if you would not normally be).Nothing in there about Tireless Rage. I am not saying that the intent might not have been for Tireless Rage but it simply isnt there.
I would treat that text as bypassing fatigue immunity.
3.5/Pathfinder is a game of exceptions. I believe this is an exception to immunity.
- Gauss
Thirded. Immunity is immunity. Tireless rage doesn't make you immune to fatigue, it makes you not become fatigued in the first place. This makes you become fatigued even if it normally wouldn't, but immunity still prevents it outright.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Thirded. Immunity is immunity. Tireless rage doesn't make you immune to fatigue, it makes you not become fatigued in the first place. This makes you become fatigued even if it normally wouldn't, but immunity still prevents it outright.
I disagree. Furious finish basically says you're fatigued no matter what. It's a limiting mechanic that isn't intended to be bypassed by a lame exception, which is, in my opinion, a bit of a lame bypass for fatigue immunity anyway. Not as bad as rage cycling, but still lame.
Furious Focus is not the feat in question. Furious Finish is (easy error to make). In any case, fatigue from the end of rage is a known mechanic 2x the number of rounds you were raging for. If you 'rage cycle' using Furious Finish I would say it is 2rounds of fatigue after 1 round of rage.
Regarding immunity being 'absolute' back in 3.5 there were even abilities that would occassionally bypass energy immunity. I'd have to find them again but they were intended for energy damage specialists.
- Gauss
I've always read it as "even if you would not normally become fatigued by ending a rage," not "even if you would not normally become fatigued from anything."
I disagree. Furious finish basically says you're fatigued no matter what. It's a limiting mechanic that isn't intended to be bypassed by a lame exception, which is, in my opinion, a bit of a lame bypass for fatigue immunity anyway. Not as bad as rage cycling, but still lame.
The problem I have with this interpretation is that saying immunity isn't immunity means that creatures that can't physically become fatigued, like constructs and undead, would be fatigued by it. It also gets weird with other things, like how it interacts with exhausted. If I was exhausted while raging, would this let me move back up to fatigued? Or would I be both fatigued AND exhausted at the same time? Regardless, if we are going by the idea that it is a generic fatigue instead of the specific rage-fatigue, you would need to rest 8 hours to get rid of it (making the feat pretty darn annoying).
|
|
From http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules #TOC-Immunity-Ex-or-Su-:
Immunity (Ex or Su)
A creature with immunities takes no damage from listed sources. Immunities can also apply to afflictions, conditions, spells (based on school, level, or save type), and other effects. A creature that is immune does not suffer from these effects, or any secondary effects that are triggered due to an immune effect
Format: Immune acid, fire, paralysis; Location: Defensive Abilities.
A lame oracle will not suffer from fatigue. He will also not suffer from any effects that are triggered due to fatigue.
Mergy, you are correct that under normal conditions a creature with an immunity to something is immune to it. We agree on this.
Do you agree or disagree that exceptions to immunities can exist?
If the answer is yes then the question is: Does this particular clause qualify as an immunity breaker. I believe that the wording can be interpreted to mean this, BUT, it is not so specific as to guarantee this interpretation.
If the answer is no, then you will have a problem the day they create an ability that does do exactly that. (Which did occur in 3.5.)
Again, 3.5/PF is a game of exceptions. The question here is 'is Furious Finish an exception to Fatigue Immunity or is it not an exception.' The question should not be 'can there be exceptions to immunity?'.
- Gauss
Edit: Mort, I think your interpretation is a valid one. Unfortunately the wording is too vague.
|
|
I think that if they wanted it to specifically get around immunity, they should have worded it better. As it stands now, I don't believe there is any Pathfinder ability that gets around immunity to fatigue.
There may be exceptions to immunity in Pathfinder, but if you show them to me, let's see if they call out specifically that they do get around immunity, rather than a very vague "(even if you would not normally be)."
|
Furious Focus is not the feat in question. Furious Finish is (easy error to make). In any case, fatigue from the end of rage is a known mechanic 2x the number of rounds you were raging for. If you 'rage cycle' using Furious Finish I would say it is 2rounds of fatigue after 1 round of rage.
Regarding immunity being 'absolute' back in 3.5 there were even abilities that would occassionally bypass energy immunity. I'd have to find them again but they were intended for energy damage specialists.
- Gauss
The feats were introduced in the books "Sandstorm," and "Frostburn." Immune creatures still suffered half damage from the energy types [Fire, and Cold, respectively].
*EDIT*
"Searing Spell" from Sandstorm
"Piercing Cold" from Frostburn
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you do, your rage immediately ends, and you are fatigued (even if you would not normally be)
If this is not an exception to an immunity... then what is it? You would only not normally be fatigued if you were unable to be affected by it. Being immune makes you unable to be affected by it.
When a statement says, though you would not normally be effected by it, ignore this, and proceed to be effected by it, then this is an exception to an exception.
+1 for being fatigued.
|
|
Even if you would not normally be doesn't really matter, because of immunity. If you're immune to something, it just doesn't happen.
Furious Finish will, however, cause a level 17 barbarian to be fatigued from it, assuming he is not immune to fatigue in some other way.
Starting at 17th level, a barbarian no longer becomes fatigued at the end of her rage.
The difference is pretty clear in my opinion. Immunity is a different thing.
You're right, immunity is when something just doesn't happen. Which is exactly what this exception is here for. Whenever it doesn't happen, ignore it, and make it happen anyway.
;)
Just our interpretations though. These games are filled with them.
The way I'd do it is to be a barbarian with the Titan Mauler archetype**. It should allow you to start using 2-handed weapons of a bigger size (or is at least intended to used in this way), and that with lead blades will let you wield a Huge weapon with two hands at a -1 penalty, and with lead blades your base damage will be 6d6, or using vital strike 12d6.
** Johtogrip lets you get past using the innappropriately sized weapon penalty, however it doesn't bypass the you can't wield a weapon too big for you rule. However, it does seem that the authors intended this to be the case.
you can see his intent here:
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz4qa7?Titan-Mauler-what-can-and-cant-it-wield#21
It is the same as...
If you have a class feature that says after using the class feature it deals 1d6 fire damage to you. At higher levels, when using the class feature it does not deal 1d6 fire damage to you. There is an ability that makes it deal 1d6 fire damage even if it normally wouldn't. Fire immunity is still immune to the 1d6 fire damage.
Stockvillain, thanks for finding them. I seem to remember an alternate class ability that did similar. Anyhow, it is history (3.5 that is).
Mergy, we absolutely agree that it is interpretation on both sides and that a FAQ would be nice.
- Gauss
Unfortunately, with Furious Finish, even the lame curse doesn't make you immune to the fatigue caused by it
IF you play Furious finish to make you fatigued no matter what, go Horizon Walker with desert mastery and roused anger. Roused anger suppresses fatigued, furious finish again, you go fatigued instead of exhausted, roused anger again.
It is debatable as well that furious finish maximises both the weapon dices and vital strike added dices. I prefer to go kensai to be sure about it, plus I get true strike and some cool trinkets.Someone suggested monk of the four wind/barb2/HW2, making 3 improved vital strikes @lvl16.
elite array
The damage formula is h(d+s)+tchd.
h = Chance to hit, expressed as a percentage
d = Damage per hit. Average damage is assumed.
s = Precision damage per hit (or other damage that isn't multiplied on a crit). Average damage is again assumed.
t = Chance to roll a critical threat, expressed as a percentage.
c = Critical hit bonus damage. x2 = 1, x3 = 2, x4 = 3.
N (Enlarged) Medium humanoid (human)
Kensai4/urban barbarian2/Horizon walker2/ragechemist2
Init +1
DEFENCE
AC 17, touch 10, flat-footed 14 (+6 armour, +1 deflection, +1 natural armour -1 size)
Hp 71 (4d8+2d12+2d10+2d8+20)
Fort +11, Ref +5, Will +4
OFFENCE
Speed 50 ft.
base attack : +8
power attack : -3/+9
Melee +2 furious large bastard sword +22/+15 (4d8+30/17-20)
or Vital Strike +22 or 40(true strike) (8d8+30/17-20)
STATISTICS
Str 33, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 11, Cha 8
Feats power attack, Furious Finish, Furious Focus, Vital Strike, quick draw, arcane armor training
Rage Powers : roused anger
Arcana : wand wielder
discovery : vestigial limb
Gear : 62,000 gp
18,370 gp +2 keen furious large bastard sword
16,000 gp belt of giant's strength +4
7,250 gp +2 mithral chain shirt
750 gp wand of enlarge person
750 gp wand of true strike
750 gp wand of lead blades
2,000 gp handy haversack
4,000 gp cloak of resistance +2
2,000 gp ring of protection +1
total = 61870
He is a little fragile for a front liner, but he can get mirror image if need be. But since he kills a CR appropriate opponent in a single strike it is no big deal. He has crappy saves though.
vital strike :
Missing only on a natural 1, critical x2 on 17-20
0.95x102+0.2x2x0.95x102 = 135.66
full attack :
0.95x48+0.2x2x0.95x48 = 63.84
+
0.55x48+0.2x2x0.55x48 = 36.96
= 100.8
I was playing around with a heavy hitter build I thought I'd introduce as a big bad into a campaign I was running. When I got finished with the concept for it, I decided that it would have TPK'd the party so it never made it to paper.
My build used Alchemist (ragechemist/vivisectionist archtypes) and Barbarian (titan mauler archtype). The build was around 8th - 9th level.
I think by the end I had a baddie with a STR score of 30+ (raging + mutagen) that could power attack using a large sized Adamantine Earthbreaker for 6d6 on a Vital Strike +2d6 sneak attack.
I've misplaced the numbers... but I'm pretty sure he could threaten massive damage saves.
And it looks like the James Jacobs verdict is in. Furious Finish is not intended to be an exception to Fatigue Immunity.
- Gauss
|
|
Thanks ShadowcatX.
For what it's worth, I don't think it's overpowered to have that trick. It's a trick that requires losing a point of BAB (delays feats, additional attacks, collective -1 to hit), and it can only be reasonably achieved in mid levels anyway.
Anything that gives us stronger martial characters, especially more mobile martial characters, is a Good Thing.
|
|
Agreed. Martials need love to, so long as it doesn't result in only a single martial build being viable. (Which this certainly won't.)
I dislike the wording of this since its really "even if you wouldn't be, unless you wouldn't be because you're immune, then you wouldn't be and still aren't but otherwise you are..." and that's just a mouthful.
"Even if you wouldn't be [from ending your rage normally]"?
EDIT: A friend of mine would like to point out that a large-sized bastard sword will vital strike higher than a medium greatsword. Requires an extra feat and gives a -2 penalty on attacks, but possibly worth it, considering the differences in damage from large-sized lead blade'd wielders:
Greatsword: 2d6 > 3d6 > 4d6: Vital Strike for 8d6 (average 28, max 48)
Oversized bastard sword: 2d8 > 3d8 > 4d8: Vital Strike for 8d8 (average 36, max 64)
If you skipped Eldritch Heritage in my build, you could qualify for it and Weapon Focus, giving you only a net -1 to hit for 16 more damage per Vital Strike.
A Large dwarven waraxe produces the same damage as bastard sword without the extra feat for dwarves with martial weapons.