I know The Realms, but next to nothing about Greyhawk...
how does it differ from the Realms (If it does)?
is there a good place to go, if I want to red about it?
thanks for any answears,
GRU
Possibly enough information for you.
Greyhawk is the standard campaign setting for 3rd edition (and prior as well). All the basic setting information in the 3.0 and 3.5 PHB and DMG regarding deities and locations is taken from Greyhawk.
There are a lot of major differences. Of course the maps, countries, locations, and major NPCs are all different, and there's very little overlap between the deities other than the various racial gods (Moradin, Yondalla, Corellon, Garl, Kurtulmak, Gruumsh, etc.).
The Wikipedia article gives some basic setting and major NPC information, and links to a few useful books for further info.
EDIT: NINJA'D!
Thanks, Orthos & Signore di Fortuna... I will check it out:-)
GRU
I remember a conversation years ago, when someone said "Why would I choose Greyhawk over Forgotten Realms?" Fans of each setting seemed to agree: the biggest difference was the degree of detail. Forgotten Realms has so many books painting so many little details of each region, right down to local pie recipes. (No, that's not an exaggeration.) Greyhawk is sketchy enough to allow the DM to make his own mark on the world.
What first got me hooked on Greyhawk was the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer (whose writing credits, incidentally, include Erik Mona and Sean K Reynolds). I could spend hours at a time flipping through that book, learning about so many fascinating kingdoms like Furyondy, or intriguing organizations like the Circle of Eight.
Later, I got the 3.0 version of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, and for various reasons, just didn't find Faerun compelling. Different strokes, and all that.
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The biggest draw of Greyhawk - which, aside from a single FR campaign that I swiftly derailed into homebrew territory by hitting the planet with a meteor, all of my PnP campaigns except for the two I currently have running have been set in - was the freeform nature of the world. The ability of divine casters to be more flexible with deities (or not have one at all) versus FR's stricter limitations, the open-ended nature of the setting and background versus Faerun's heavily detailed and very rigorous canon, and most of all the lack of a library's worth of canonized novels to read or risk being unaware of this or that.
I currently admin for an FR-based NWN server, and the extensive canon and strict interpretations of much of the background and history have caused no end of headaches for the DM team. We've repeatedly had to shoot down or reject interesting ideas, plotlines, or character concepts simply because FR doesn't support them, things that even just using a looser setting like Greyhawk (rather than a completely homebrew world, which is my setting of choice these days) would allow.
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A lot of people get twitchy when you compare these two settings. Greyhawk was a 1e setting that was written by the man himself, Gary Gygax. It holds a lot of iconic imagery that set the foundation for the game today even. I'd also say it's very 'swords & sorcery' as opposed to the Forgotten Realms' bombastic 'high fantasy'.
To me it was a matter of scale. If you want to play powerful earth-shattering characters with gobs of magic and powers, then the Realms are for you. It was such a huge, well-developed world that you really didn't need anything else.
Still, Greyhawk is a great love of mine, and the time spent there very memorable.
Read a 'Gord the Rogue' book, then read a Drizz't novel. Both excellent in their own right, but very different settings in feeling and tone.
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I'm a big Realms fan but Greyhawk will always be my first love. I love the flexibility of the setting and the memories it brings back from first ed. I think Greyhawk is the better choice if you want to customize the world. I agree with the above posts. Temple of Elemental evil, all of Gord's adventures, all of these are in Greyhawk. The only thing I didn't like was the aftermath of the wars. Try it out and I believe you will love it.
I'm a big Realms fan but Greyhawk will always be my first love. I love the flexibility of the setting and the memories it brings back from first ed. I think Greyhawk is the better choice if you want to customize the world. I agree with the above posts. Temple of Elemental evil, all of Gord's adventures, all of these are in Greyhawk. The only thing I didn't like was the aftermath of the wars. Try it out and I believe you will love it.
thanks,, sounds good,
GRU
...I'd also say it's very 'swords & sorcery' as opposed to the Forgotten Realms' bombastic 'high fantasy'....
This is interesting, would anyone else care to comment on this?
GRU
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Oh Lord, anything sword and sorcery is fantastic. Its a darker tone but the world itself is well thought out. I liked it because it reminded me alot of Lankhmar and the types of Jack Vance novels, it has that feeling of a world ruined and heroes trying to set it to rights again. If you go the Sword and Sorcery way let me recommend City of Mithril, and Relics and Rituals. Both of these you can get used very cheap. Also check out the Veshian Vigils. If you get a chance look them up and tell me what you think.
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...I'd also say it's very 'swords & sorcery' as opposed to the Forgotten Realms' bombastic 'high fantasy'....
This is interesting, would anyone else care to comment on this?
GRU
Things tend to be smaller scale, with only a few "mega-cities" like the Free City of Greyhawk dotting the landscape. And there is a lot of focus on the pseudo-medieval - coats of arms; baronies, duchies, and the like; even the largest kingdoms are not superpowers.
For me, it boils down to a mental analogy.
Greyhawk:Forgotten Realms :: 1e:2e
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I, personally, don't see the "Greyhawk:Forgotten Realms :: 1e:2e" analogy. Forgotten Realms WAS around in the days of 1e. The first version of the campaign set was published in 1987.
It's funny, though. The analogy that keeps coming to MY mind is Greyhawk:Forgotten Realms :: DC Comics:Marvel Comics (even though the "Forgotten Realms" comic was published by DC). Really. I keep thinking of Salvatore's novels as the "X-Men" of FR, and Drizzt as its Wolverine. Drizzt is FR's cash cow. Even when Drizzt is gone, all the other characters seem to be in his shadow.
Meanwhile, look at Greyhawk. When D&D switched from 1e to 2e, there was this Greyhawk module called "Fate of Istus" to try to explain all the changing rules of the world. Then later, to explain the changing rules from 2e to 3e, WotC released a Greyhawk / Ravenloft / Planescape crossover module called "Die Vecna Die!"
When hearing about "Fate of Istus" and "Die Vecna Die!", how can I help but refer to them, mentally, as "Crisis on Infinite Greyhawk"?
Furthermore, when TSR went around changing the rules of Greyhawk with events such as the Greyhawk Wars, and then later products worked on changing the rules BACK, (e.g. the Crook of Rao banished the demons in Iuz' armies... no it didn't!) it makes me think of DC comics changing its continuity, and later writers changing it back.
And years after I thought of that analogy, I heard something that gave me the impression that others, too, kept comparing Greyhawk to DC comics. I never read "Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk", but I'm told that it contains an explanation of how Robilar could have betrayed Mordenkainen (an event that many people, including Gary Gygax, had refused to accept, as Robilar's loyalty to Mordenkainen was legendary). It seems that it wasn't the real Robilar. It was an imperfect copy of him. And you know the duplicate's name? It was an anagram of Robilar: Bilarro.
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And years after I thought of that analogy, I heard something that gave me the impression that others, too, kept comparing Greyhawk to DC comics. I never read "Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk", but I'm told that it contains an explanation of how Robilar could have betrayed Mordenkainen (an event that many people, including Gary Gygax, had refused to accept, as Robilar's loyalty to Mordenkainen was legendary). It seems that it wasn't the real Robilar. It was an imperfect copy of him. And you know the duplicate's name? It was an anagram of Robilar: Bilarro.
You are correct about the fate of Robilar in that adventure.
About the 1e:2e, I don't speak for Kirth but I feel it's more to do with the presence of the products. During 1e, Greyhawk was at its height. During 2e, the Realms became the darling child and Greyhawk started a long slow slide into generic obscurity.
My personal tribute to Greyhawk is that my own campaign world has basically evolved the same way, a hodge-podge of locales and nations from many adventures and campaigns. And I still use the Greyhawk pantheon as the main one in any games I run, with the exception of one Kingmaker game. Even my home Pathfinder games use old favorites, and I still refer to a lot of spells by their Greyhawk names, even the ones purged in 3rd Edition.
Oh Lord, anything sword and sorcery is fantastic. Its a darker tone but the world itself is well thought out. I liked it because it reminded me alot of Lankhmar and the types of Jack Vance novels, it has that feeling of a world ruined and heroes trying to set it to rights again. If you go the Sword and Sorcery way let me recommend City of Mithril, and Relics and Rituals. Both of these you can get used very cheap. Also check out the Veshian Vigils. If you get a chance look them up and tell me what you think.
after work I went to my FLGS and rummaged thorugh the "used" pile... and they had GREYHAWK Player's Guide, a little bit frayed, but still fine looking. I only had time to skim a bit but will sit down and have a proper read tonight. It's from 1998 and I've understood that there are sort of two "generations" of Greyhawk?
Thanks, guys, for helping a novice,
GRU
Oh Lord, anything sword and sorcery is fantastic. Its a darker tone but the world itself is well thought out. I liked it because it reminded me alot of Lankhmar and the types of Jack Vance novels, it has that feeling of a world ruined and heroes trying to set it to rights again. If you go the Sword and Sorcery way let me recommend City of Mithril, and Relics and Rituals. Both of these you can get used very cheap. Also check out the Veshian Vigils. If you get a chance look them up and tell me what you think.after work I went to my FLGS and rummaged thorugh the "used" pile... and they had GREYHAWK Player's Guide, a little bit frayed, but still fine looking. I only had time to skim a bit but will sit down and have a proper read tonight. It's from 1998 and I've understood that there are sort of two "generations" of Greyhawk?
Thanks, guys, for helping a novice,
GRU
I think the Player's guide from 1998 was a follow on set slightly after the From the Ashes boxed set which itself was a follow on to Greyhawk Wars which followed the 1983 World of Greyhawk boxed set. I forget the specific dates from the campaign setting. The 3E Living Greyhawk Gazetteer is set a few years after the Player's Guide if I am not mistaken.
Also Lisa Stevens is an unabashed Greyhawk fangirl.
Greyhawk being closer to Sword And Sorcery? It never tingled my Sword And Sorcery sense. I tried to get to know it but it never impressed me in any way that would caught my attention. Practically every other major TSR/D&D world brought my interest more than Greyhawk.
CEO
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Here is an interesting article that was posted a while back called Putting the Grey in the Hawk. It talks about what makes Greyhawk work and how it is different from the Realms. Hopefully it helps to clarify the differences. It worked very well for me back in the day!
-Lisa
Putting The Grey In The Hawk
1st - Greyhawk is, or should be, a setting for experienced gamers. This is by default as it has been around so long and because gaming has also matured. There are plenty of other settings available for the kids.
But what components go into a game designed for experienced gamers?
1) Experience vs. Maturity Such a game need not deal exclusively or at all with "adult" topics like sexuality. The game merely needs to recognize that the players will be familiar with the conventions of roleplaying. That is all that need be ment by mature/adult or experienced.
2) Ain't No Black and White World Such a game needs to have complex characters, countries, situations and social relationships. The nine alignments are too simplistic. Characters, countries, etc. should not be easily classified on a good/evil or law/chaos scale. Rather, characters, countries, etc. will have both good and bad characteristics at the same time. The bad characteristics need not be "evil" but can be merely flaws. Birthright has taken this example to heart and is a good model to follow in this respect.
3) Conflicts Conflicts will include good vs. evil but also good vs good or evil vs evil rivalries. Conflicts would include situations that are good or evil depending on your world view i.e. morally relativistic, or neutral as some define it. Conflicts should not be one sided right or wrong.
4) The Action Rather, than an emphasis on monsters, the emphasis should be on NPC's. Along with monster slaying, politics, intrigue, romance, economics, social advancement, etc. should receive equal time and attention. As part of this, the PCs, rather than some NPC, should resolve major conflicts. PCs should drive the action and the setting. Many WoG published adventures follow this model - allowing the PCs to take the staring role. The Giant Series. Slavelords. Etc.
5) Presentation The presentation would establish the general outline of the world in sufficient detail to be playable. Follow up products would develop the key areas and conflicts of the world in greater, but not obsessive, detail. Subsequent releases should advance the history of the world, gradually changing and evolving it. This is not to say there can be no upheavals but evolution should not stop and must always be natural to the setting.
6) It's My Nickel A game for experienced gamers needs to be much more responsive to its audience. Experienced gamers are opinionated and want to have input. ;) The follow up and subsequent releases should be guided by what the audience wants. Radical concept, no? Bottom up rather than top down management and design.
7) The Setting The setting must present a wide variety of micro settings within the macro setting. This Greyhawk accomplishes. From ice caps to deserts, oceans to lakes, elves to humans, etc., Greyhawk has it all in a compact area. This variety provides the greatest likelihood that an experienced gamer will find something to their liking. Holds as a general principle as well.
8) Historicism The setting must have a history and events must make sense within that history. This provides context. Greyhawk again comes through. It is possible to achieve this not only in the original design but through the supplements that gradually evolve the setting.
9) Character Development Characters should be able to develop not only in terms of power but personality. Yes. I can do that now but it is not built into the rules system and we are talking design. Pendragon is an example of a game that does build in non power character development glory, vices and virtues etc.
10) Roots Characters should not just spring into being. Leave parthenogenesis to Zeus. Characters should have backgrounds and family ties i.e. baggage. It goes with the historicism and character development.
These techniques are nothing more than adaptations of common fiction writing techniques. Not the drivel TSR calls fiction but REAL fiction.
2nd - Moving from general principles to more specific Greyhawk applications - What does it mean for a product or adventure or even an entirely new creation to be suitably "Greyhawk?" What puts the "Grey" in the Hawk?
Criteria No. 1 Applied Internal Historic Consistency
Greyhawk has a strong internal sense of history that is consistently applied in all "Greyhawk" products or creations. However, not every product published under the name "Greyhawk" meets this criteria.
Greyhawk is a storied realm. It's seminal figures, good and ill, are interwoven throughout the setting. It has a defined history that strongly influences the present and future of the setting. Greyhawk's history is not a footnote but an integral part of the setting that must be understood to truly comprehend the relationships among men, nations and even gods. True "Greyhawk" products or creations build on this history, incorporate it and develop it. The best such products or creations leave enough open ends to allow for further such development. More mediocre products attempt closure of every loose thread.
Criteria No. 2 Player Resolution of Critical Events
The seminal events in Greyhawk's current history and development are all presented such that the players may not only take part but play a leading role. Player's could fight the Greyhawk Wars.
Players defeated the hordes of the Temple of Elemental Evil. Players defeated Lolth. Players turned the tide as Iuz aced Vecna.
In the Forgotten Realms, for example, Ao decrees an event and the players get to clean up in the aftermath. Cyric destroys Zhentil Keep offstage and the players get to delve into the ruins. Gods die to be replaced by mortals and the players watch. Elminster sends players on a mission but ultimately keeps from them the greater goal the mission serves.
When you play in Greyhawk, you join in the weaving of a tapestry of which you are a vital part. Greyhawk is about your story in the context of Greyhawk's story. Roleplaying in Greyhawk involves playing your part in the longest running AD&D campaign in existence. It is bigger than you are but you can become as great as it is. That is the essence of Greyhawk's history. It enfolds, informs and connects every part of the setting and all who play there of any length of time.
Criteria No. 3 NPCs Reward More Often Than They Advise or Direct
NPC's in Greyhawk are not godlike figures who direct the course of events upon which your character is washed like the tide. Neither do they persistently show up to advise you. They may do both but more often they serve as the measuring stick against which your character's performance can be judged and serve to reward your character by recognizing their accomplishments or otherwise admitting your character into their august company.
The Circle of Eight are aloof. They do not want to be your buddy. Neither do they have a laundry list of chores for you to perform. Rather, in Greyhawk you will find adventure without such NPCs suggesting it for the most part.
In the Forgotten Realms, for example, Elminster is famous for sending characters on their way. The Harpers do the same. Ultimately, Elminster or the Harpers play the directing role and may indeed appear to steal the show or otherwise claim ultimate victory.
In Greyhawk, YOU are the hero. Without assistance from the likes of the Circle of Eight and without them acting as a safety net. You can go your own way, in fact, without them ever troubling you. This cannot be so simply said in settings such as the Forgotten Realms and has not a little to do with Criteria No. 2 (Player Resolution of Critical Events in Greyhawk vs. NPC Resolution of Critical Events in FR).
Criteria No. 4 Persistent Personified Evil
Evil in Greyhawk is persistent. It is halted, checked or imprisoned but it is not defeated with finality for all time. The triumph over evil is a relative thing, ultimately transitory.
Evil in Greyhawk is personified. Evil has faces and names attached to it that ring down through the setting's history. It is not an evil that pops up purely to give the players something to strive against and defeat before moving on to the next evil that similarly appears out of relative nowhere.
Vecna, Iuz, Lolth, Tharzidun, the Scarlet Brotherhood, Aerdi, Kas, even Turrosh Mak, all met this criteria. They are highly personified forces that spring from the setting's specific history. By comparison, evil in the Forgotten Realms is of the pop-up variety save for the Red Wizards and Zhentrim. Menaces appear from nowhere or with on the spot histories that never before appeared in the setting. Greyhawk allows for this type of toaster villainy but it also established from the first, villains of a historic character that transcend the needs of the adventure of the moment.
Criteria No. 5 Villainous Variety
Villainy in Greyhawk runs the gambit from the cosmic menace of Tharzidun, to the planar peril of Lolth, to the cambion menace of Iuz, to the purely mortal menace of Turrosh Mak. There is variety in the villainy. Villainy in Greyhawk is like a box of chocolates from Hell; you never know for sure what you are going to get (Best Example: The Giant Series). Greyhawk's villains do not announce themselves; you have to figure it out.
Compare villainy in the Forgotten Realms. The variety isn't there. You have scads of godly villains. The Red Wizards. The Zhents. It is feast or famine. And FR villains have signature trademarks that all but announce who you are facing, unless of course it is an evil toaster pastry.
Villains in Greyhawk will also turn on each other. The Iuz/Vecna conflict being perhaps the most famous. In other settings, villains are villains, identified by their clearly visible placards, sandwich signs or more "subtly" their black attire. You can count on them to always do the wrong thing.
Greyhawk keeps you guessing. Like a good Call of Cthulthu adventure.
Criteria No. 6 Heroism With a Price
Greyhawk's heros rarely slay the evil wizard, who will trouble the land no more, to the full voiced cheers of the crowd. Best Iuz and you are marked. He will be back but you will have to deal with a likely enraged Zuggotomy in the meanwhile. Greyhawk's villains don't exist in a vacuum and neither do Greyhwk's heroes. Everything is linked.
Heroism has a meaning within the setting that makes it more than a solitary act echoing in the vastness. It attracts attention, good and ill. It is immediate and brings a notoriety that other settings can only talk about. Notables exist to recognize your accomplishments and to measure you against themselves and the foe you defeated. And, they will have likely played little or no role in your victory. Evil too takes your measure for darker reasons.
This criterion can best be seen in the breach. The interconnection of people and places and the loose ends creates this effect, though few published adventures use it to motivate future adventures. The revised supermodule series provides the greatest opportunity on this score. But note the connection in Isle of the Ape - Iggwilv is pissed because someone (the PCs) offed Drelzna in the Caverns of Tsojcanth!
Criteria No. 7 Militant Neutrality
On Oerth, the forces of neutrality are arguably at least as powerful as those of good and evil and certainly as active.
Iquander has accurately defined this characteristic of Greyhawk and I acknowledge his work. Greyhawk is not concerned with the triumph of good over evil. The very nature of the evils loose on Oerth makes such triumphs fleeting at best. Greyhawk endures evil and circumvents it. It does not defeat it.
Evil forces, of course, will attempt to conquer Oerth. And just as certainly they will be opposed by forces who will seek to banish evil from the world. Neither will succeed. Neither in the long history of Oerth has ever succeeded. Good and evil are well enough matched that outcomes are never certain and always close calls one way or the other.
Moreover, evil on Oerth is not monolithic. Various demon lords and ladies contend with each other. Iuz battles Vecna. Kas seeks Vecna's destruction. Iuz feuds with his mother and father. Evil beings are true to no one save themselves.
Perhaps accounting for all of this, Oerth has strong and active neutrally aligned forces, working to preserve a balance between good and evil. While hardly organized, these forces nonetheless manage to be quite effective. The Circle of Eight, mighty wizards all, seeks a middle path. Istus, the divine Lady of Fate, tests all but favors none. Druids are a quiet but ever present presence. Indeed, many of Greyhawk's deities reflect a distinct neutral bent.
Compare Toril. Evil is overmatched by Elminster, the Seven Sisters (good aligned minions of the goddess of magic), the Harpers, the Lords of Waterdeep and activist gods. Evil is on the run and kept that way. It has but few strong holds and is highly transient, rarely surviving long enough to present more than a temporary challenge. Good triumphs on Toril. The dragon is slain, never to rise. The horror you never heard of before yesterday is laid to rest. The bad gods are thrown down.
The differences could not be more striking. Greyhawk is about struggle against evenly matched and long standing opponents. FR is about victory over transient and overmatched opponents.
Criteria No. 8 Personal Magics
Greyhawk is not a low fantasy setting save by comparison to settings on magical overload. Birthright is a low fantasy setting. The Forgotten Realms is a high fantasy setting. Greyhawk falls in between.
What distinguishes magic in Greyhawk is that it is highly personalized. Look at the spells. Mordenkainen's this. Nystul's that. Otiluke's the other. Magic is personalized by any wizard not of the hedge variety. Look at the artifacts for still more proof. What Birthright strives to achieve sparingly, Greyhawk has already accomplished in fair profusion. Spells have a history as due magic items. While there are +1 swords of no certain fame, many are the items with specific histories. Look at the Greyhawk Adventures hardback.
Similarly magical instruction in Greyhawk is personal. Greyhawk does not know great guilds of wizards but flourishes with a developed system of apprenticeships. One need but look at the Circle of Eight to see this. They, with one, possibly two, exceptions, belong to no guild of mages, and they that do belong do so as patrons at best and more probably as figureheads. Neither can the Circle itself be considered a guild. This mighty example and the utter lack of a single magical guild of any note, fairly well makes the case.
These then are the eight traits that define the Greyhawk feel. Most critical are 1st (Applied Internal Historic Consistency), 4th (Persistent Personified Evil) and 7th (Militant Neutrality) points. At the barest minimum to be considered truly "Greyhawk" a product or creation must adhere to these three criteria. Better products or creations adhere to progressively more of these criteria. The best also display a mature approach the experienced gamer can appreciate.
Without doing a full dress analysis of From the Ashes, I think we can see that it utterly fails to adhere to the 7th criterion. FtA throws neutrality out the window in favor of paring off goods and evils in a Flanaess tilted wildly toward evil. Furyondy/Nyrond is pared off with Iuz. Aerdi is pared off with Nyrond. Keoland is paired off with the Scarlet Brotherhood/Pomarj. While overall, evil is clearly ascendent. This sort of dark fantasy, whatever its merits otherwise, defies the tradition of active neutrality that defined Greyhawk beforehand. That about half all WoG players rejected FtA supports this hypothesis. FtA's designers, to include the Greyhawk Wars, were ignorant, willfully or otherwise, of the setting in which they worked. The resulting products while technically proficient, even well done on their own merits, were sadly lacking in that Greyhawk feel. Of course, some would choose to ignore this, finding the change "bracing," others with duller senses wouldn't even notice.
In any event, now we have a list of what puts the Grey in the Hawk. This list is by no means exclusive. I may have overlooked something and I know some listed criteria are of lesser note than others or mere permutations. However, I think overall the list can stand up to close scrutiny.
Long live Greyhawk! Its my default setting when I DM.
That was interesting - makes me want to play in Greyhawk:-)
thanks, everyone!
GRU
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Dont get me wrong FR has its place and Im still a fan but Greyhawk is always going to be the beginning. Lisa's post is fantastic. My advice to anyone is dont limit yourself to one world. Play a little of them all and see which one kicks into your awesome fantasy taste buds. I hate fanboy fighting and I refuse to say one setting is better than another, all of them meet a certain need. For the record one of my fave settings was Ravenloft, we played the Grand Conjunction and it was one fun campaign. As much as I like it I wouldnt say that it was better than anything else.
Here is an interesting article that was posted a while back called Putting the Grey in the Hawk. It talks about what makes Greyhawk work and how it is different from the Realms. Hopefully it helps to clarify the differences. It worked very well for me back in the day!
-Lisa
Hi Lisa,
thanks - this was an interesting read. Do you know who the author is?GRU
Dont get me wrong FR has its place and Im still a fan but Greyhawk is always going to be the beginning. Lisa's post is fantastic. My advice to anyone is dont limit yourself to one world. Play a little of them all and see which one kicks into your awesome fantasy taste buds. I hate fanboy fighting and I refuse to say one setting is better than another, all of them meet a certain need. For the record one of my fave settings was Ravenloft, we played the Grand Conjunction and it was one fun campaign. As much as I like it I wouldnt say that it was better than anything else.
+1
They are both cool settings. I have had more adventures in Forgotton Realms myself. Bottom line is both are classic campaigns that deserve attention.
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Here is an interesting article that was posted a while back called Putting the Grey in the Hawk. It talks about what makes Greyhawk work and how it is different from the Realms. Hopefully it helps to clarify the differences. It worked very well for me back in the day!
Interesting read but regretfully, it shows signs of bias against Forgotten Realms - some of examples concerning Faerun are erroneous or based on common but untrue assumptions or poor gameplay experience of the author - which gives the Faerun no justice as poor GM can butcher any setting. Author has knowledge of the Oerth but his Faerun lore is lacking.
Criteria No. 3 NPCs Reward More Often Than They Advise or Direct
NPC's in Greyhawk are not godlike figures who direct the course of events upon which your character is washed like the tide. Neither do they persistently show up to advise you. They may do both but more often they serve as the measuring stick against which your character's performance can be judged and serve to reward your character by recognizing their accomplishments or otherwise admitting your character into their august company.
The Circle of Eight are aloof. They do not want to be your buddy. Neither do they have a laundry list of chores for you to perform. Rather, in Greyhawk you will find adventure without such NPCs suggesting it for the most part.
In the Forgotten Realms, for example, Elminster is famous for sending characters on their way. The Harpers do the same. Ultimately, Elminster or the Harpers play the directing role and may indeed appear to steal the show or otherwise claim ultimate victory.
In Greyhawk, YOU are the hero. Without assistance from the likes of the Circle of Eight and without them acting as a safety net. You can go your own way, in fact, without them ever troubling you. This cannot be so simply said in settings such as the Forgotten Realms and has not a little to do with Criteria No. 2 (Player Resolution of Critical Events in Greyhawk vs. NPC Resolution of Critical Events in FR).
This is example of GM-based bias. It is the GM's decision if the players will be the heroes or just sidekicks. Nothing in FR campaign setting says, players are unable to become heroes, nothing in Greyhawk campaign says that players cannot be sidekicks. It's not world-related problem, it's GM matter. Such false perception is augmented by the number of Forgotten Realms books that are based on actual adventure modules - the characters of those books are stand-ins for actual heroic PCs.
Criteria No. 4 Persistent Personified Evil
Evil in Greyhawk is persistent. It is halted, checked or imprisoned but it is not defeated with finality for all time. The triumph over evil is a relative thing, ultimately transitory.
Evil in Greyhawk is personified. Evil has faces and names attached to it that ring down through the setting's history. It is not an evil that pops up purely to give the players something to strive against and defeat before moving on to the next evil that similarly appears out of relative nowhere.
Vecna, Iuz, Lolth, Tharzidun, the Scarlet Brotherhood, Aerdi, Kas, even Turrosh Mak, all met this criteria. They are highly personified forces that spring from the setting's specific history. By comparison, evil in the Forgotten Realms is of the pop-up variety save for the Red Wizards and Zhentrim.
This problem is complex:
I. Author certainly knows the Oerth but less so Faerun. There are examples of persistent and personified evil in Faerun too: Bane, Shar (my personal favorites), Cyric, Szass Tam, Manshoon, Fzoul, Semmemon (it would be easy to brand them with simple Zentharim plaque but it would be giving them as much justice as labeling Iuz, Iggwilv and Zuggotmoy under single group as well), Larloch, Halaster... And Lolth is here as well.
II. On Faerun organizations seems to play much greater role than in Greyhawk to me (might be matter of me knowing Oerth less than Faerun, however). Incidentally, this happens to fulfill the following postulates of the author quite well:
2) Ain't No Black and White World Such a game needs to have complex characters, countries, situations and social relationships. The nine alignments are too simplistic. Characters, countries, etc. should not be easily classified on a good/evil or law/chaos scale. Rather, characters, countries, etc. will have both good and bad characteristics at the same time. The bad characteristics need not be "evil" but can be merely flaws. Birthright has taken this example to heart and is a good model to follow in this respect.
3) Conflicts Conflicts will include good vs. evil but also good vs good or evil vs evil rivalries. Conflicts would include situations that are good or evil depending on your world view i.e. morally relativistic, or neutral as some define it. Conflicts should not be one sided right or wrong.
4) The Action Rather, than an emphasis on monsters, the emphasis should be on NPC's. Along with monster slaying, politics, intrigue, romance, economics, social advancement, etc. should receive equal time and attention
Criteria No. 5 Villainous Variety
Villainy in Greyhawk runs the gambit from the cosmic menace of Tharzidun, to the planar peril of Lolth, to the cambion menace of Iuz, to the purely mortal menace of Turrosh Mak. There is variety in the villainy. Villainy in Greyhawk is like a box of chocolates from Hell; you never know for sure what you are going to get (Best Example: The Giant Series). Greyhawk's villains do not announce themselves; you have to figure it out.
Forgotten Realms lacking variety of villains? This is the case of "author didn't do his homework". Lords Of Darkness describe 7 major organizations and 20 minor organizations (and in some cases the division between minor and major seems to be based upon amount of space dedicated to organization), most of whom been around at least since the middle of ninties - only a few of them were invented for 3rd edition. And the list is far from complete.
Compare villainy in the Forgotten Realms. The variety isn't there. You have scads of godly villains. The Red Wizards. The Zhents. It is feast or famine. And FR villains have signature trademarks that all but announce who you are facing, unless of course it is an evil toaster pastry.
Signature trademarks? He must be referring to the Curse Of The Azure Bonds campaign... Or some poor GMing that was done to him that biased him against Forgotten Realms.
Villains in Greyhawk will also turn on each other. The Iuz/Vecna conflict being perhaps the most famous. In other settings, villains are villains, identified by their clearly visible placards, sandwich signs or more "subtly" their black attire. You can count on them to always do the wrong thing.
Certainly he speaks about completely different setting as Forgotten Realms has lots of villain on villain action (Bane vs Cyric, Zhents at each other throat to name the most important).
Compare Toril. Evil is overmatched by Elminster, the Seven Sisters (good aligned minions of the goddess of magic), the Harpers, the Lords of Waterdeep and activist gods. Evil is on the run and kept that way. It has but few strong holds and is highly transient, rarely surviving long enough to present more than a temporary challenge. Good triumphs on Toril. The dragon is slain, never to rise. The horror you never heard of before yesterday is laid to rest. The bad gods are thrown down.
False impression caused by the abundance of <censored> books... Thank you damn TSR code of ethics!
Here is one of the cases where the explosion of books for Forgotten Realms harmed the setting more than helped. Greyhawk had much less books so the "Evil shall never be portrayed in an attractive light and shall be used only as a foe to illustrate a moral issue. All product shall focus on the struggle of good versus injustice and evil, casting the protagonist as an agent of right. Archetypes (heroes, villains, etc.) shall be used only to illustrate a moral issue." message enforced by TSR code of ethics was repeated less.
When looking into actual campaign setting and expansions, one can see that for every ultra-powerful do-gooder mage (which is problem with level inflation started in 2nd edition era but going completely out of the control in 3rd edition due to poorly defined scale of power and Epic Rules Handbook) there is at least one and half ultra-powerful evil mage that can counter him. It is also important to note that evil deities are much more active than good ones and there is a lot more of evil (both Evil and less mundanely evil) than good ones. And they have more money, contacts and members.
It is true that neutrality is less militant than what the author says about Greyhawk but is very widely spread on Faerun. Only a few cities/countries are actually bastions of good - most of them are neutral, indifferent or ambivalent (yes, Waterdeep overall is ambivalent at best, they do forbid slavery and refused Thayan an ex-territorial district but the nobles of the city are greatest power and they are quite mixed lot; Lords Alliance is not about spreading Goodness and Purity, it is about mutual defense and common sense political cooperation). By no measure the Good triumphs on Faerun, neither does capital letter Evil (but small letter evil is quite common and rather successful).
A thought occurred to me (yes, that happens from time to time):
I have meet a lot of people that love Forgotten Realms, I have meet a lot of people that hate Forgotten Realms, I have meet a lot of people that are indifferent to them.
I have meet (but never personally, always on the net) lots of people that love Greyhawk. I have meet a lot of people that are indifferent to Greyhawk (actually all gamers I know personally show this attitude). But I have never heard about anyone hating that setting - at worst people seems to be bored by it.
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No one really said that they hated the Forgotten Realms, they were merely pointing out the differences. There are quite a few differences, still there is no reason for a simple discussion to devolve into a "My world is Better than Yours" argument. Honestly for a long time I was pissed off for a long time at 4E. I just realized that other people like certain things. For me the new Pathfinder system and 3.5 are for me. This was simply a person asking for advice. I think we all gave it as best we could.
No one really said that they hated the Forgotten Realms, they were merely pointing out the differences.
I was not speaking about comments on this thread - I was speaking about people I have talked to and about people sharing their opinions on the net. For example, friend of mine explicitly refused to partake in Forgotten Realm session stating a number of reasons - all of them were commonly repeated accusations against Forgotten Realms (NPCs do everything instead of players, Elminster this, Elminster that, FR books are terrible, etc.) and she refused to acknowledge that the Faerun is not limited to a few bad books and overpowered all mighty DMPCs.
There are quite a few differences, still there is no reason for a simple discussion to devolve into a "My world is Better than Yours" argument. (...)This was simply a person asking for advice. I think we all gave it as best we could.
This is exactly why I commented on the article posted by Lisa - pointing out places where the article was inaccurate.
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I have to disagree with several parts of your rebuttal, Drejk, but a lot of my disagreement comes with my own hatred for the Realms.
I have to disagree with several parts of your rebuttal, Drejk, but a lot of my disagreement comes with my own hatred for the Realms.
This is what I was talking about: many folks honestly admit that they hate Forgotten Realms setting while Greyhawk does not seem to incite outright hatred - negative opinions about Greyhawk (from my experience) are limited to being unimpressed.
Now I am thinking about opening a group therapy thread where we could help those poor misguided souls move past their bad experiences (for those who played with bad GMs)/false assumption (for those who didn't actually played - some of those who hate Forgotten Realms actually expressed that they didn't played and yet they hate it).
BTW, Freehold DM:
I have to disagree with several parts of your rebuttal, Drejk, but a lot of my disagreement comes with my own hatred for the Realms.This is what I was talking about: many folks honestly admit that they hate Forgotten Realms setting while Greyhawk does not seem to incite outright hatred - negative opinions about Greyhawk (from my experience) are limited to being unimpressed.
Now I am thinking about opening a group therapy thread where we could help those poor misguided souls move past their bad experiences (for those who played with bad GMs)/false assumption (for those who didn't actually played - some of those who hate Forgotten Realms actually expressed that they didn't played and yet they hate it).
BTW, Freehold DM:
** spoiler omitted **
The books, the characters, and the occasional game. I'll get into greater detail after I go to work.
Hi Lisa,
thanks - this was an interesting read. Do you know who the author is?It was somebody who went by the moniker of Night Screed. He was a pretty famous Greyhawk proponent from back in the 1990's.
-Lisa
Thanks, Lisa!
- "Night Screed", now what could a screed be..?
something one wouldn't want to meet a dark night? or something you wouldn't want to find in your pants... or both?
The Screed.
GRU
Or, maybe a screed is something well known to Americans, that just isn't known here ("here" being Denmark)...
for those who are as ignorant as I:
1. A long monotonous speech or piece of writing.
2.
a. A strip of wood, plaster, or metal placed on a wall or pavement as a guide for the even application of plaster or concrete.
b. A layer or strip of material used to level off a horizontal surface such as a floor.
c. A smooth final surface of a substance, such as concrete, applied to a floor.
Here is an interesting article that was posted a while back called Putting the Grey in the Hawk. It talks about what makes Greyhawk work and how it is different from the Realms. Hopefully it helps to clarify the differences. It worked very well for me back in the day!
-Lisa
Putting The Grey In The Hawk [snip]
...
I never played much with published modules so perhaps my experience is off, but that article could have described the Realms just as much as Greyhawk (yeah, yeah, go ahead with the "blasphemy!" calls).
Adding to Drejk comments, I've not witnessed any games were Elminster and the Seven Sisters take precedence over the characters. Kelbhen Blackstaff makes as much an antagonist as a protagonist in many games (he often ends-up being both). Like Drejk, it is my impression that the author of Lisa's posted article has either a strong dislike and/or a poor understanding of Forgotten Realms, and failed to provide an objective analysis.
There are no doubt that the two settings are different, but not so much on the points given above, with two notable exceptions were I think the author was right:
1) Forgotten Realms does provided a more detailed description of the setting and contains more "fluff" material and much more "canon" novels (which obviously can color your perception of the Realms if all you know of them is the (sometimes poorly written) Realm's fiction. This has been criticized before, rightfully so IMO.
2) Forgotten Realm is a setting where people gather in groups of like-minded individuals and form societies, more than in Greyhawk at any case. Organizations do go beyond political and feudal boundaries, sometimes to the point of wondering what good being a duke or a king can be.
Otherwise, you could copy-paste his points on Experience, Maturity, Black/White, Conflict, Action, (perhaps not so much Presentation), It's my Nickel, Setting, History, Character Development, Roots etc to make the promotion of the Forgotten Realm (and I bet Golarion).
'findel
Amongst my own group, this is how we defined the two settings;
Greyhawk was the gritty setting, much friendly to the 'ordinary individual being pulled into extraordinary circumstances and situations bigger than themselves'.
Forgotten Realms was the epic, magic monty haul, richly detailed, setting with nearly God-like NPCs running around playing chess with the adventurers of the world.
Both settings have their strong and weak points. However, Greyhawk is home to the Wizard's who names are still known today: Mordenkainen, Nystul, Otto, Bigby, just to name a few.
Interesting article, despite the Greyhawk bias. Greyhawk certainly have the dubvious "benefit" of being left along by the publisher for a couple of decades, everything published back in the day seem to be good, judging by comments here and elsewhere.
Personally i hope Elminster's Forgotten Realms is a huge success, for obvious reasons, but also because as I would like to see something similar for Greyhawk. Gygax' Greyhawk back in print with modern production values would be insanely cool.
I would boil the differences down to this.
IN Faerun, the adventurers are heroes who bias towards Chaotic Good...like Tymora, the patron of adventurers. They are wild and free, off for glory and adventure and fighting the evil with free spirits. The organized force of heroes in the world is the Harpers, who also align towards CG (or, at least their leadership does).
The established enemies tend to be LE. Zhents, Red Wizards, Knights of the Shield, etc. CE organizations just pop up and fade away, not getting much screen time. Heck, the church of Cyric is supposed to be massive, and you never see it roll like Bane's does.
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IN Greyhawk, the heroes bias Neutrality. You're not out to be a hero, unless it makes you money or glory or helps you survive. You're a merc and a self-interested glorysword, out to better your life. At higher levels, your goals might become more about taking a philosophical position...but equally likely are just about making your name a legend, conquering your own kingdom and setting up a bloodline, getting better gear, or the like.
Grandiose adventuring heroism with a song just isn't the normal Greyhawk way. You don't go adventuring to be a hero. You do it to further your own goals.
Good on Good conflict is alive and well in Greyhawk. Furyondy and the Shield Lands are the prime example. The latter was basically run by paladins, the elite of both country worship Heironeous...and the Shield Lands so distrusted Furyondy that Iuz rolled in and crushed them because they wouldn't ask for aid, fearing they'd be annexed.
On the other side, Good aiding Good is also big. Veluna and Furyondy work very closely together.
CG and LG don't get along. The biggest CG martial god is Trithereon, who is all about independence. His followers don't get along well with Lawfuls of any stripe.
The organizations of heroes are your classic Knighthoods and maybe church-sponsored organizations. The idea of a pan-nationalistic bunch of heroes like the Harpers would be set upon from every side as a threat to national security and EXTERMINATED in Greyhawk. The NG/CG gods that support the Harpers do not work together that way in Greyhawk, and without the backing of Churches and deities to give them legitimacy, the Harpers would be extinguished and/or subverted to various national interests.
The bad guys in Greyhawk are monolithic and huge. Iuz is CE, and the biggest single villain in the setting. The Horned Society is NE, with Warduke on retainer and daemonic backing. Aerdi is LE and the quintessential dying, decadent empire. The Scarlet Brotherhood is subversive LE intrigue with tentacles everywhere. You can't stamp them out, they just grow up elsewhere. You kill them, and endure their replacements. They'll always be around, and peace is a laugh. Militant neutrality is a byword because your neighbors are NOT going to leave you alone, there's plenty of creatures in the world that will kill you just to kill you, and a fight is just over the horizon anywhere and everywhere.
Greyhawk is about survivors, and Faerun is far more about swashbucklers.
==Aelryinth