Sacred Shield Paladin archetype too strong?

[Conocchio]

Yoho!
This is my first time writing on this messageboard, so I don't know if this is a topic you guys already talked about...

Last week our wizard died and he built a sacred shield paladin (ultimate combat) because he wanted something tanky.
We currently play book 4 of Kingmaker, so we are about lvl 10 and oh my god is this archetype broken! He is wearing a +3towershield, so due to his Holy Shield ability he grants his allies a +7 on AC!

Our melee characters (a kensai magus and a duelist) all have now an AC of 35+... normal monsters hit us only on a natural 20!

I just want to know if we are missing something and if you have the same problem (as a GM, cause our GM is pretty annoyed)?

[Blackwaltzomega]

Sacred Shield's Holy Shield has a limited duration and consumes two uses of the Lay on Hands ability for each use; even a charisma-optimized paladin should not be able to keep the Holy Shield effect up for a minute, let alone all day. Secondly, at your level Holy Shield does NOT protect allies if they are not right next to you. So if any of your allies move away from you Holy Shield immediately stops protecting them.

Paladins aren't proficient with Tower Shields normally, so I assume that he spent a feat to gain proficiency. Even doing so, however, Tower Shields are very cumbersome and with the loss of smite evil this paladin is strongly handicapping his ability to fight in order to increase the party's AC.

Since your current situation means this bastion of defense only works if the Kensai and Duelist stay glued to the Sacred Shield and therefore don't take any advantage of their own mobility, it seems like enemies can simply keep their distance while the Paladin is shining and move in to fight when it goes down.

Some other matters to consider are the fact that Shield bonuses don't help with Touch AC, CMD, or saving throws; if monsters can't find something to attack when AC is too high that's a failure of encounter design. Among other things, you can just sunder the shield. Sacred Shield's abilities are handy against melee brutes and fairly useless against caster-type enemies, who are never attacking your touch AC.

Duelist, Kensai, and Sacred Shield are all classes that were designed to have high armor class. If that is what the party has focused on, mooks having a hard time hitting them is cause and effect. That said, what do you guys do against enemies that can fly, or attack from a great distance while waiting for the shield to weaken? From the sounds of it your party has little to nothing in the way of ranged combat capabilities and if the GM can't do anything with that that's really his problem.

The Sacred Shield is overall one of the weaker paladin archetypes. If he'd built a paladin for OFFENSE he'd probably be shredding the enemies he's tanking while still having good AC. Tower Shields are extremely niche and AC stacking usually ain't worth the effort past a certain point with the number of ways to get around it.

[Conocchio]

Good points!

Thanks for the reply :)

Kingmaker Book 4 just happens to be designed around trolls, babarians and other close and brutal combat monsters, so I think the paladin just happened to be on the right spot in the right time! Unless we are in dungeons, after every encounter we travel around the map for days, that is why the holy shield charges didn't bother us that much.

[Bob Bob Bob]

If high AC is frustrating your GM, that's your GM's problem. There are multiple ways that players can get there (most of which have their own upsides and downsides) and it's something every GM will have to deal with at some point. And there's a lot of ways to deal with it. Combat Maneuvers, spells, touch attacks, it all depends on how they do it.

For your specific instance it looks like the other players were already playing highly defensive characters and the Paladin just bumped them up to "super defensive". It's only +7 AC. If that means the monsters only hit on a 20, they were already only hitting on a 12 (or worse than 50/50 odds). And the Paladin themself probably isn't as defensive as the others. +7 shield, +9 armor, +1 Dex, would need to scrounge up another +8 somewhere (possible, but expensive). They can use Bastion of Good here but it's single target. In return for that the Paladin is swinging at -2 (from the tower shield) and lost Smite Evil. Oh, and at least one feat missing to Tower Shield Proficiency. So... yeah, the Paladin is going to hit like a wet noodle and is probably the most vulnerable of their front-line party members. That sounds less than ideal.

The specific vulnerability of this party is any sort of AoE effect, multiple opponents, and ranged attacks. That's a lot of weaknesses. Bastion of Good only works at 10 feet away. Holy Shield only works adjacent (though it goes up to 10 feet at level 11). That's fireball formation right there. More importantly, a 20 foot aura on a melee creature (dragon, mummy, etc.) will hit 3 party members. Breath weapons (even the little 15 foot ones) will hit 3 party members. Even Color Spray might hit 3 party members. That's bad. And unless the party uses ready to move together (in which case they're not attacking) then the party members that move ahead lose the shield bonus from the Paladin. If the party ball sticks together then they're also only moving as fast as the slowest member (probably the paladin). So they've made a very defensive ball... that moves really slow and only attacks in melee combat (as far as I can tell). So a tank with a flamethrower. Just don't let it come in range and it's worthless. If other party members move separately from the ball the enemies can ready to hit them once they leave the Paladin's Holy Shield range.

So no, not "too strong". Not by a long shot.

[Errant Mercenary]

This is an archetype I always suggest in these forums and hype up. It usually gets ignored and have not found anyone interested in running it.

It is very powerful, when and if used right. Also very easy to avoid. Gives up a lot of offense. But damn is it tasty when it works.

[Matthew Downie]

Bob Bob Bob wrote:

If high AC is frustrating your GM, that's your GM's problem. There are multiple ways that players can get there (most of which have their own upsides and downsides) and it's something every GM will have to deal with at some point.

But it is often a pretty severe problem for GMs trying to challenge the party with published material. In the past I've added house rules (like a Fighting Offensively option) and made the party fight all the creatures from two separate encounters simultaneously just to create a vague semblance of a challenge.

[Ryan Freire]

Errant Mercenary wrote:

This is an archetype I always suggest in these forums and hype up. It usually gets ignored and have not found anyone interested in running it.

It is very powerful, when and if used right. Also very easy to avoid. Gives up a lot of offense. But damn is it tasty when it works.

Stacking it with Warrior of Holy Light seems like it could make a buffer to rival bards.

[Errant Mercenary]

Matthew Downie wrote:

Bob Bob Bob wrote:

If high AC is frustrating your GM, that's your GM's problem. There are multiple ways that players can get there (most of which have their own upsides and downsides) and it's something every GM will have to deal with at some point.

But it is often a pretty severe problem for GMs trying to challenge the party with published material. In the past I've added house rules (like a Fighting Offensively option) and made the party fight all the creatures from two separate encounters simultaneously just to create a vague semblance of a challenge.

I dont understand this quote. I have to refrain myself from throwing certain stuff at the party...

If you are talking published adventures such as APs, yes, they are super lackluster (except in a couple of point moments, see obituaries). They are not made for a well planned party. However, they are an easy chassis to say "50% more enemies here" "+3 to DC of this" etc.

Sacred Shield is a much less effective paladin in the offensive role - a normal paladin will obliterate that enemy in a couple of rounds. It's a different play style.

Put together any party you like, I can provide at least 2-3 encounters that can dismantle their "main strategy". As a GM in this arms race you are always the banks.

[Darigaaz the Igniter]

I like sacred shield when dipping paladin, never seen it taken beyond a couple levels.

[Matthew Downie]

Errant Mercenary wrote:

If you are talking published adventures such as APs, yes, they are super lackluster (except in a couple of point moments, see obituaries). They are not made for a well planned party. However, they are an easy chassis to say "50% more enemies here" "+3 to DC of this" etc.

I was indeed talking about published adventures. 50% more enemies doesn't help if they're mooks who can't land a hit, and +3 to DC feels like 'cheating' to me for a system like Pathfinder where DCs are derived from base stats.

But yes, a GM can certainly give every monster +7 to hit if they're willing to do so to cancel out a player's AC bonus.

[Errant Mercenary]

I meant fair encounters....haha...eh
Yeah published encounters are just undertuned, the party they are for is terrible, so I dont feel bad.

Darigaaz the only Sacred Shield I've played has been as a dip too with Battle Oracle too. But I'd be willing to play one all the way if I could plan some stuff with the party.

[thenovalord]

I have a level 12 Oradin battle/sacred/light combo in mummys mask
He is pretty robust
I do always forget to use his sacred bond ability.