All of them.
Depends on the spell being used to turn him into a shadow. A normal shadow that gets extra attacks (such as from haste) does Str damage on each hit.
The shadow's attack is a natural weapon so you wouldn't get iterative attacks with it. I'm unsure how else you are expecting to get more than one attack with it.
The answer is no - that spell grants you a shadow's incorporeal touch, which is another natural attack that does strength damage instead of regular damage. I'm pretty sure you should lose all your normal natural attacks, because "An incorporeal creature has no physical body" (source). There's no explicit rules text associated with the shadow projection spell or acquiring the incorporeal power which explicitly removes them, though.
One of tbe revisited books the recent undead one has a templated dragon which might serve as a model for how the attacks work with nat weapons. I will look later when i am home.
I'm curious about the effects of shadow projection on a creature. From what I've been able to tell, the spell description is lacking in specifics on the effects of the recipient.
I have a player with a sorcerer PC and a quasit familiar and he's been casting shadow projection on his familiar every game. After hasting his familiar last week, he sent it after a dragon and the results weren't pretty. With a claw/claw/claw/bite routine against a low touch AC creature, the dragon was nearly done in by the quasit alone.
Sure, the quasit suffered an AoO getting into the dragon's square, but since it's incorporeal it took half damage; minus 5 off that for DR cold iron or good (neither of which the dragon had) and the damage was pathetic. Even the dragon's full attack wasn't very effective with Power Attack because of the halving and DR.
On top of everything else, the quasit's AC was 27 which is decent enough to make attacks miss on a regular basis. (I didn't ask how it was that high, I just assumed it was legit.)
When a creature becomes a shadow with shadow projection, does its equipment still apply? How about spells that were cast on the body? What abilities does it retain (DR, natural armor, evasion, etc.)?
Since a shadow's incorporeal, a creature would need a magic weapon or DR magic to affect it, correct?
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Whoa... you are really allowing yourself to get owned when you shouldn't.
With this spell, you infuse your life force and psyche into your shadow, giving it independent life and movement as if it were an undead shadow. Your physical body lies comatose while you are projecting your shadow, and your body has no shadow or reflection while the spell is in effect.
While projecting your shadow, you gain a shadow's darkvision, defensive abilities, fly speed, racial stealth modifier, and strength damage attack. You do not gain the creature's create spawn ability, nor its skill ranks or Hit Dice.
Your shadow has Hit Dice and hit points equal to your own.
Your shadow projection has the undead type and may be turned or affected as undead.
If your shadow projection is slain, you return to your physical body and are immediately reduced to -1 hit points. Your condition becomes dying, and you must begin making Constitution checks to stabilize.
You (or your quasit) isn't doing anything -- your shadow is -- and your shadow is acting as the undead shadow creature.
As such the shadow doesn't have any of your normal abilities -- after all it's not you (it's not even your body which is laying dead like back where it's left) -- you don't get any of your normal abilities with it.
Whoa... you are really allowing yourself to get owned when you shouldn't.
With this spell, you infuse your life force and psyche into your shadow, giving it independent life and movement as if it were an undead shadow. Your physical body lies comatose while you are projecting your shadow, and your body has no shadow or reflection while the spell is in effect.
While projecting your shadow, you gain a shadow's darkvision, defensive abilities, fly speed, racial stealth modifier, and strength damage attack. You do not gain the creature's create spawn ability, nor its skill ranks or Hit Dice.
Your shadow has Hit Dice and hit points equal to your own.
Your shadow projection has the undead type and may be turned or affected as undead.
If your shadow projection is slain, you return to your physical body and are immediately reduced to -1 hit points. Your condition becomes dying, and you must begin making Constitution checks to stabilize.
You (or your quasit) isn't doing anything -- your shadow is -- and your shadow is acting as the undead shadow creature.
As such the shadow doesn't have any of your normal abilities -- after all it's not you (it's not even your body which is laying dead like back where it's left) -- you don't get any of your normal abilities with it.
That makes sense from a logical perspective, but the spell states that "you gain a shadow's ...". That implies that you add that list of things to yourself, and only lose those that the incorporeal status takes away (like having a strength score).
That makes sense from a logical perspective, but the spell states that "you gain a shadow's ...". That implies that you add that list of things to yourself, and only lose those that the incorporeal status takes away (like having a strength score).
Right, which was my interpretation. Unlike a polymorph-based spell, where I can see precedents, shadow projection is a necromancy spell and I don't know of anything comparable to say, "OK, so this spells works this way, shadow projection should work similarly."
It seems reasonable to me that you would:
* Retain your natural attack type (i.e., claw/claw/bite).
* Lose any special attack abilities (grab, disease, poison, trample, etc.).
* Lose any benefits from your equipment. (After all, you're being separated from your body.)
* Lose any natural armor bonus. (You're incorporeal.)
* Lose any DR or energy resistance/immunity. (Though I can see an argument against this, since I don't think your type changes.)
* Retain spell-like abilities.
* Lose supernatural abilities.
But just because it seems reasonable to me doesn't mean it's the way it's supposed to work.
IF that is the way you read it I would point out that the shadow's strength damage attack specifies that it is a singular touch attack (like a natural weapon) in and of itself -- which means it would not apply to other natural weapons.
The problem with retaining your natural attacks is... how do they hit? Do they become incorporeal touch attacks, bypassing armor? Do they stay their normal attack, hitting the armor that you could reach through if you chose?
If you keep them, you'd use your Dex to make the attack (instead of Str), and you wouldn't get any bonus or penalty to damage (it'd be the straight die roll).
Here, take a look at this Dread Shadow template to get an idea of what happens when a creature becomes a shadow. It basically says that if the creature has natural attacks they all become strength draining incorporeal touch attacks.
This is of course assuming that this isn't a special thing about dread shadows as opposed to regular shadows...
If the dread shadow template is right, then I would have killed yer dragon Jeff ^_^ Its all good though I have much <3 for you good sir.
Don't worry by the time I am done this weekend at Origins Im sure the spell will be banned for PFS.
Hmm...I'll have to watch what I say now that I know you're on the boards, Skip. :-) Ironic that we're both on the same thread and I didn't even know it.
The interesting thing about the dread shadow is that the Strength damage is by size: Fine to tiny only does 1d4.
For lack of a more official response, I think the dread shadow is the best place to start.
Where is the dread shadow from?
Oh yeah, third party publishing.
It's not even Piazo -- you can hardly use that as a claim to the rules, especially when it's a Dread Shadow, instead of shadow on top of it all. I mean these things are more than shadows (evidence by the fact they can command shadows) and shouldn't be used as a means of figuring out RAW or even a lesser monster.
I think Abraham's ruling is the right one, and it would be how I ran it in PFS. You use the statistics of a shadow, with the modifications mentioned in the spell.
It's worth pointing out that the dread shadow template is third-party. So you can't derive an official ruling from it. It certainly could provide a good basis for a GM to make his own call, though.
Personally, I feel like a flat +2 CR for the template isn't well balanced, for precisely this reason of multiple natural attacks. If you manage to apply it to a hydra, it's going to be far, far, scarier than if you apply it to something with only one natural attack. Based on that, I wouldn't use it as a basis for the shadow spell in my games.
Edit: ninja'ed by forgetting to hit "submit" Oops.
I think its best to ask is a lvl 4 spell which can cripple high cr monsters with no save adoing what its intended? Probably not.
On a side note paizo did use the dread wraith template on the shadow dragon red dragon in the undead revizited book.
Ahh, I totally missed that Dread Shadow was a 3rd party template, sorry about that.
Mojo I don't disagree with you. I find the very best spell choices possible to put together outside of a box.
Until a few weeks ago at warriors 3 I bet no one thought that spell was worth a damn. A few minutes ago I bet you looked at my subject line, what I was doing and went zomg broken.
If I had all my attacks a round doing strength damage my familiar would have solo d a dragon by itself. Note it's an improved familiar with empowered false life, haste, shield, extended Mage armor, and shadow projection. As it stands if I had cast blink on it, it very well may have killed the dragon non the less. It didnt and my character died a horrible death. I consider the expiriment a success non the less.
Well, honeztly reading how a spell works and likely doing so incorrectly really isnt an experiment, i think tgis is a neat spell wbich i hadnt really looked at. But im pretty sure it doesnt work the way you used it.
It states that you possess your shadow. No, it doesn't state you lose your attacks, but you become incorporeal so your normal attacks no longer apply, incorporeal creatures can't hit physical ones. Therefore, they give you the shadow's strength damage touch attack. You only get the one. I'm surprised this isn't obvious due to the fact your buffed familiar almost solo'd a dragon.
If your DM wants to allow you to abuse the hell out of a spell that doesn't at all do what you're trying to do, by all means do it, abuse it, and let your familiar destroy combat with 3d6 str damage. But realize it doesn't say your attacks (natural or otherwise) do strength damage, it says you gain the shadow's str damage special ability.
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My way of determining the best way to have something work. Look at it from both sides of the screen. If you can do it so can my bad guys.
Unfortunately this was for a PFS game, and RAW rules. This may not be a polymorph spell but it is the closest we have to use. I would say you loose your normal attacks and take on that of a shadow. With haste, this is 2 touch attacks. With weapon fitness feat, this means will almost always hit, for 2d6 strength damage. Course Im not always right.
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The spell states that "With this spell, you infuse your life force and psyche into your shadow, giving it independent life and movement as if it were an undead shadow."
Your shadow becomes an "undead shadow". Full stop. Your shadow now acts as if it were a shadow creature under your control. That has an entry in the Bestiary. The next paragraph states what parts of the entry you get, and what you don't. You don't even keep your own feats/skills/anything else when you do this, since it's not a polymorph transmutation spell.
In essence, your character is replaced by the shadow creature stat block, except you keep your own hit points and HD, and you don't get the shadow's skill ranks or create spawn ability. You keep its feats (dodge and skill focus:perception).
(You don't need weapon finesse because incorporeal creatures already use Dex to make touch attacks).
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Ok, maybe I'm missing something but I fail to see how anyone is assuming that this spell would ever allow you more then a single drain per round.
The Shadow's strength damage ability is flagged as a Supernatural ability. All SU abilities require a standard action to use thus preventing it from ever making a full attack.
Best example for building a creature like this is to use the Ghost template (also an incorporeal creature with a touch attack that does ability damage/drain).
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Mathwei, Supernatural Abilities can also just be constant effects. The entry states that it doesn't require a standard action to use, just that its attacks deal strength damage.
The way you state it, a monk's "Purity of Body" or "Diamond Body" ability would need a standard action to use, even though it just states that he gets blanket immunities. Same with a whole slew of Paladin abilities, etc.
Supernatural Abilities usually require an "action" or are constant effects. There are tons of them that are swift/move/free actions. There are tons that are constant effects. BOTH of the shadow's supernatural abilities are constant effects.
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Mathwei, Supernatural Abilities can also just be constant effects. The entry states that it doesn't require a standard action to use, just that its attacks deal strength damage.
The way you state it, a monk's "Purity of Body" or "Diamond Body" ability would need a standard action to use, even though it just states that he gets blanket immunities. Same with a whole slew of Paladin abilities, etc.
Supernatural Abilities usually require an "action" or are constant effects. There are tons of them that are swift/move/free actions. There are tons that are constant effects. BOTH of the shadow's supernatural abilities are constant effects.
Purity of body is an EX ability and diamond soul specifies it grants an immunity (the immunity is always on), but I see what you are trying to say.
However, this is my point, the strength damage is a supernatural ability that is tied to a specific action (incorporeal touch) which IS a standard action to use. There is no way to attach this to anything else so there is no way to get more than one str damage a round.Natural attacks don't get the damage and haste would do nothing since you could never get a full attack action to activate the extra attack from haste.
Anyway in this particular case it doesn't matter, the spell doesn't let you take your natural attacks over anyway since you are only sending your life force into an undead shadow you created.
Everything that was tied to your body (gear, spell effects, natural attacks, etc) stays with that body and everything you get from your TYPE (in this case outsider, demon) is gone since your shadow form is now of TYPE undead.
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Also, the spell does not state that your attacks do strength damage, but that you gain the strength damage attack of the shadow.
If it said that prior, then I could see getting multiple attacks to drain str. And a lot of monks would feel the need to wands of this and UMD to use them. (flurry of drain str anyone? ) But, since it says the latter, you gain the whole attack form the shadow that happens to do str damage.
The attack is a standard action. The strength damage is a rider affect, and does not turnoff, just like a lich's paralyzing ability.
Haste does get you extra natural attacks. Before it was worded to only work on "held" weapons. It has since been errata'd. I would like to know if my mentioning it to SKR was a factor though.
With all that aside I don't think the spell(shadow spell being discussed) grants multiple shadow touch attacks.
edit:clarity
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The spell seems to borrow from Magic Jar so I'd keep that as guideline, but the spell is badly written and unclear in it's workings.
so in my opinion :
- strength -, dexterity 14, constitution -
- your own mental stats
- incorporeal, channel resistance +2
- darkvision
- fly 40'(good)
- +4 stealth in dim light, -4 in bright light
- incorporeal touch for 1d6 strength damage
- undead type
and
- your own Base Attack Bonus, Base Saves and Hitpoints
- your own skill ranks and feats
- your own alignment
- your own mental abilities
I view this as a template added onto myself for a duration. It wasn't clarified for polymorphi either. If the argument is that it. Relates to a slam attack I can fix that as well by getting a familiar with pounce and monster forming ii on it into a callikrag? A large critter with six arms that can slam on every attack.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say about polymorph but to be clear your familiar would lose pounce when it is under the effects of polymorph:
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form.
Why did the familiar have pounce? Because of the creature it was, now it doesn't have that form and loses pounce.
The familiar I was looking at has pounce as a feat, they don't lose feats when you poly it.
What familiar has pounce as a feat?
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Having to deal with this spell just yesterday (in PFS) I have to say this spell is a nightmare of a headache for a GM. Incorporeal, flying strength draining, un-killable forms makes pretty much every every scenario I've read almost a cakewalk. Throw on the (un-resolved) ability to still cast spells as a shadow and a Wiz/Sorc can solo pretty much any scenario out there.
Floating (effortlessly) out of reach of nearly every opponent while being immune to all non-magical attacks (except mind affecting effects), anything with a fort save, the whole undead traits and 90% of all creature types found in standard PFS games.
Throw on the fact that if something does manage to kill your shadow form you pop back to your body where your familiar (cleric/oracle/cure stick UMD user) is waiting to bring you back to positive so you can cast the spell again and go back better prepared next time.
This spell really needs three questions answered/fixed:
Can this form cast spells? (I'd say no but the spell is vague enough it goes either way)
Is the shadow YOU or are you merely directing a 3rd party critter (your shadow) and you can only use what the shadow spell grants?
Is a 1 hour/level an appropriate duration for something as powerful as a 1D6 strength damage attack that can't be blocked? (personal pet peeve, it seems WAY to powerful for the level it is)
It's certainly not you since your body is lying helpless somewhere else and killing it drops you as well.