| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Phantom steed lists its hit points, armor class, and carrying capacity, but left out some vital information:
1. What creature type is the steed? Phantom steed is a (creation) spell, not a (summoning) spell, but its effects clearly list "creature." It states that it is "horselike." Does that make it an animal? It isn't extraplanar since it isn't being summoned.
2. What are its ability scores? We know its Dexterity modifier is +5, but that doesn't tell us much.
3. What are its saving throws? It has limited hit points, so resolving area of effects spells could be pretty important.
4. What are its senses; its Perception score and whether it has low-light vision and scent like a normal horse?
5. What are its defensive abilities; is it immune to mind-affecting spells and abilities since it is a spell effect as well as a creature?
6. CMD? At some point someone is going to want to attempt a maneuver on one of these.
7. HD? What happens if it gets hit with an enervation spell. Is it subject to spells with HD limitations, like sleep?
8. What skill ranks does it possess, if any; what are its skill modifiers?
9. Does it breath? Is it affected by inhaled poisons?
10. Do you need handle animal or ride checks to control it?
11. It only disappears if it is dismissed, the duration wears up, or its hit points are reduced to 0. What happens if it is subject to a death effect that doesn't do hit point damage? What if it is subject to forced reincarnation?
1) A steed is a horse and it's not an animal hence the 'quasi"
It is a creature, according to the effect listing, so it should have a creature type.
2) It doesn't have ability scores it doesn't do anything except carry you
It has a Dexterity modifier, so it must have have ability scores (at least one). And since those scores can be raised or lowered with spells and effects, they can be important to know.
3) It doesn't have any, it just carries you around.
It has hit points and armor class. At some point you may be attacked while riding it. Saving throws might be involved in said combat. If you get struck with a fireball while riding it, it needs to make a save for half damage (especially considering its low hit point total).
4) It doesn't have any skills it just carries you around.
It has an ability modifier, so it has to have at least some skill modifiiers. Until it can air walk or fly (at which point it specifically mentions the fly skill) it may need to climb, jump, or swim. If you try to command it, it must have a perception score to hear you and to see where it is going.
5) It has an AC 18 and it's Quasi-real it
AC isn't a defensive ability (not listed under the heading defensive ability in a stat block), neither is being "quasi-real," whatever that is supposed to mean.
6) It doesn't have a CMD it just carries you around
But it has an AC, which it wouldn't if it weren't able to come up. What if someone bull rushes, repositions, or drags the steed to also cause difficulty for the rider?
7) It can't be evervated it's a spell/Quasi real it's not a living target.
See above, it is, in fact, a creature, made via a (creation) spell. Whether or not it is "living" is debatable, so perhaps enervation is a poor example, but the question is still an important one for other spells that reference HD.
If you have this many questions after reading the spell I just wouldn't cast it. This is not a combat spell it has no combat ability (which was half your questions). It only carries you around from point A to point B.
But you can be attacked while riding it and thus it can be involved in combat. While it states that it doesn't attack, it does have AC and hit points meaning that other creatures may still attack it. Someone else must have thought so as well, since it has at least a few combat statistics; they are merely incomplete. It may not be intended to be used as a combat spell, but the spell effect can be in place when combat begins.
Perhaps I'm not the one casting the spell, but trying to make accurate rulings for my players that wish too.
I think someone missed the most important rule. (See below, in the "add new post" section.)
Forgot to mention I'd probably either give it the same carrying capacity as a horse since it's horse-like.
That is great, but the spell already lists the weight it is capable of supporting.
The spell says in the first paragraph bottom sentence that "it does not attack." If it had any other ability score the book would list it...
You're missing the point; I'm aware that it cannot attack. I've stated it several times. The rulebook is far from perfect, and it often inherit problems from the material it is copied and pasted from- sometimes this includes material that has information missing. There is the possibility of an error.
It has hit points and armor class. At some point you may be attacked while riding it. Saving throws might be involved in said combat. If you get struck with a fireball while riding it, it needs to make a save for half damage (especially considering its low hit point total).
That is correct it might get attacked or hit by a fireball it doesn't get a saving throw, because it just stands there and takes the hit. It doesn't think, feel or have a sense of survival because it's NOT a real monster/animal being "Quasi".
So it will dodge incoming physical attacks with its Dexterity modifier from the Dexterity score it doesn't have (Dexterity bonus to AC), but won't dodge a fireball because it doesn't have a "sense of survival" (which you are adding; since that isn't stated in the spell)? Does that honestly make sense to you? Look, if you want to house rule the spell into perfect working order for yourself, feel free, but don't pass off those opinions to me as rules.
It can't climb, jump or swim it just walks on the ground until reach the varies listed levels in the spell. It's not real so it doesn't have any skills since it's still "quasi" which resembles a real monster/animal.
You sure are taking a lot of liberties as to what something that is a "quasi-real horselike creature" can and cannot do; especially since the term means nothing as far as the game is concerned, as it doesn't have a descriptor and doesn't give any indication that it cannot do what you claim that it cannot (where as unseen servent is a lot more clear).
You are just wrong AC is a defense it protects you from attacks, and defenses protect you. Again "Quasi" means it resembles, but it is not real.
Read a stat block. AC is listed under the DEFENSE heading, but not under the Defensive Abilities subheading, which, if you read the opening post, you will see is what I asked for.
Since the monster can't attack it doesn't have a CMB, but if that should happen I'd give the monster a 15 CMD 10 + 5 Dex Mod. There's not much in the way of trouble doing any of these things to the mount is going to do to the rider. It would be easier to kill it so the rider would fall off the mount.
No size modifier then? And again, I love how coherent your arguments are. It can dodge bull rushes with its Dexterity, but not a fireball, eh?
It's not debateable because you still don't understand what Quasi means at this point see the top post again. The word Quasi tells you enough about the Steed. Since it doesn't have a Constitution score it's not alive. Just like a golem and undead.
Again you missed the point. It is a creature (like those golems and undead that you compare it to). See the noun in the effect listing. I don't really care whether it is considered living or not at this point. It is a creature. Creatures have hit dice. I need to know how many it is considered to have for the purposes of spells and effects.
If you don't know the answer, that is fine. But don't pretend like you do.
I've always assumed phantom steed was more like a force effect than a creature. But it does occur to me that there is nothing solidly RAW to support that.
Interesting to note that the Graveknight template comes with the ability to summon a mount that functions as a phantom steed. The low AC and extremely low HP's don't make it a good mount for a template that is built for mounted combat. Can't really beat the speed.
What is meant by the level 12 ability:
"The mount can use air walk at will (as the spell, no action required to activate this ability) for up to 1 round at a time, after which it falls to the ground."
How does it differ materially from the Level 14 ability:
"The mount can fly at its speed with a bonus on Fly skill checks equal to your caster level."
You sure are taking a lot of liberties as to what something that is a "quasi-real horselike creature" can and cannot do; especially since the term means nothing as far as the game is concerned, as it doesn't have a descriptor and doesn't give any indication that it cannot do what you claim that it cannot (where as unseen servent is a lot more clear).I'd be taking liberties if I said the horse can swim and jump since the spell doesn't say it can. The spell is going to say everything the spell can do. It's not going to list everything the spell can't do, and since the spell doesn't say it can swim, and they get Water Walk at will at level 10. Than I'd still say no, because while the book may not be perfect it's pretty close to it.
There's obviously something you really want this spell to do, and I'll be shocked if it really is swimming and jumping. Although that's because you are trying so hard to get it to move beyond the spells ability. At first I thought you wanted it to attack, but you already know it can't. The limits of the spell look pretty obvious to me though. You can either ride it or have it carry someone else or loot. The spell is only a source of limited transportation, although the mount spell which is a first level spell can do everything you are trying to get phantom steed to do. You don't get all the high level abilities as the spell increases in power, but you could talk to your DM about creating a new spell that does offer what you want.
You obviously haven't been reading my posts, especially if it took you this long to realize that I knew ot couldn't attack. More so because I noted myself as a GM looking for clarifications for a player already; so I'm not trying to make the spell do anything. The fact that you think the rulebook is near error free is laughable. Take a look at the full errata and constant changes to monks for examples. You're being needlessly antagonostic- if you don't have anything constructive to add then leave. You have yet to foully respond to any of my posts anyway. The spell creates a "horselike creature". All I'm working on sorting out is how horselike the creature created is in terms of omitted statistics should a player riding one be attacked. And I have yet to see you back your claim that the steed will dodge attacks but not spells because it has no sense of survival or other such nonsense. Return when you are willing to exercise some reading comprehension.
@ 8 Red Wizards:
Let's look at this another way. First, let's look at the the (creation) descriptor, since phantom steed has it. I'll bold the important bit for you until you read the CRB.
It creates a creature for a limited period of time. It is kind of like a (summoning) spell, but instead of transporting a creature to you, it creates one, and instead of sending it back from whence it came at the end of the spell's duration, it unmakes its effect.
You've made a number of ridiculous claim; you've said the spell will only state exactly what it can do, not what it can't. This is objectively incorrect, as the spell says the creature created can't attack. Nothing else in the spell says that the creature created doesn't exactly follow the rules of all creatures, including being able to attempt any non-trained-only skills. You've also stated that the creature created has no sense of survival, which not only does the spell not state, but defies your first claim. You've claimed that the steed doesn't make saving throws against spells because it has no fear of injury or death (which again, the spell doesn't state, see above), yet it will actively dodge attacks (with an AC which includes a Dexterity modifier).
The rules of what creatures can and cannot do is the majority of the rulebook- it would be impossible for the spell to contain all of that text, much like how the summon monster X spells don't reprint all of that information.
The more that I think about the spell, its wording, and its descriptors, the more I believe the spell is supposed to use the statistics of a horse from the Pathfinder Bestiary, using the adjective "horselike" to note that there are a few major differences; notably the difference in carrying capacity, speed, and the inability to attack.
Learn the PF definitions of the words "creature" and "(creation)" and perhaps you may be able to debate your position. But when your logic is pointed out to be flawed (see the fireball/attacks vs. AC listed several times above) and you continually refuse to back yourself up and press forth with your odd and arbritary claims of what a created creature can and can't do, leading me to the understanding that you do not know the rules as well as you'd like to think you do.
All in all:
Read the rules.
Back up your claims with the rules (including rule quotes/links).
Seriously think about the arguments you are going to make before you make them.
Leave if you aren't willing to do the above.
With the level 12 ability, you can launch yourself into the air to say bridge a chasm. If you're not on the ground within six seconds of launching yourself, you're going down like a stone. You can not recast airwalk in mid air.What is meant by the level 12 ability:
"The mount can use air walk at will (as the spell, no action required to activate this ability) for up to 1 round at a time, after which it falls to the ground."How does it differ materially from the Level 14 ability:
"The mount can fly at its speed with a bonus on Fly skill checks equal to your caster level."
And when I first read it I thought that too. Except that no action required to activate this ability. Why can't it be activated at the beginning and end of your turn - giving 100% coverage?
Maybe that is an exploit, not RAI. The ability to bridge gaps does seem to be a nice intermediate ability between water-walk and flight. The more I think about it I believe this is what they intended.I do wish its defenses were better spelled out.
Yo Jack.
Why are you bothering to ask if you are unwilling to accept the answer. Seriously broseph, you asked, there was an answer, you obviously have a differing idea of how this spell should work, so do it your way, that is how this game and all games like it work.
You silly people and your Rules as Written stuff makes me smile.
With the level 12 ability, you can launch yourself into the air to say bridge a chasm. If you're not on the ground within six seconds of launching yourself, you're going down like a stone. You can not recast airwalk in mid air.What is meant by the level 12 ability:
"The mount can use air walk at will (as the spell, no action required to activate this ability) for up to 1 round at a time, after which it falls to the ground."How does it differ materially from the Level 14 ability:
"The mount can fly at its speed with a bonus on Fly skill checks equal to your caster level."And when I first read it I thought that too. Except that no action required to activate this ability. Why can't it be activated at the beginning and end of your turn - giving 100% coverage?
Maybe that is an exploit, not RAI. The ability to bridge gaps does seem to be a nice intermediate ability between water-walk and flight. The more I think about it I believe this is what they intended.I do wish its defenses were better spelled out.
You do not need to activate it, it is 'use activated' as you will, it is fairly obvious it allows you to run up in the air (though not straight up as per airwalk) but if you have no solid ground under you at the end of the round you fall down.
1)I think the steed is best served as a construct made out off magical shadow stuff.
2) I can't imagine a scenario in which we need it's abilities, it will be something like str 16 dex 20 con - int - wis 1 cha 1, strength being typical of a light horse, the rest being taken from construct or description.
3) Use the saves of the rider
4) Perception shouldnt matter if it is unattended if it is just treat it as part of the rider, he sees it so does the steed, if he doesnt neither does the steed, animated objects have darkvision and lowlight vision if important go with that.
5) I'd go with construct traits, +4 natural armor, +5 dex, large size
6) No BAB, dex 20, str 16, large size, CMD 19 or so, 23 vs trip.
7) I'd treat it like HD equal to the wizard that created it, but it will rarely matter as a construct.
8) no ranks, skills will be abysmal and largely won't matter since it doesnt do anything on it's own, though it might be able to jump quite well with it's movement.
9) as a construct.
10) I'd make ride checks normally, though that is more to control yourself rather than the mount. Handle animal is not appropriate.
11) Like a construct, those things typically will not work.
Yo Jack.
Why are you bothering to ask if you are unwilling to accept the answer. Seriously broseph, you asked, there was an answer, you obviously have a differing idea of how this spell should work, so do it your way, that is how this game and all games like it work.
You silly people and your Rules as Written stuff makes me smile.
I'm unwilling to except answers that both logic and rules can show are wrong. I may not know the correct answer to this question, but that doesn't mean I'm incapable of picking out incorrect ones.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Like all spell effects (and since the spell explicitly lists "one quasi-real, horselike creature" on the effect line so it is a spell effect) the result of the casting does exactly no more and no less than what the spell describes.
Since 'creature' is used to in the description of the spell effect it gets what all creatures get in combat that is not otherwise limited by the spell description. It has no HD (since none are stated) or saving throw bonus' (since none are stated) but does get to roll saves when applicable as all creatures do.
It can be inferred from the AC breakdown that it has a +5 dex bonus and therefore could get that added to any applicable reflex saves but that is a pure GM call as it is not explicitly noted in the spell.
Specific answers to your questions:
1) It has no creature type. It is a spell effect not a summoning. It is not an actual living creature but a quasi real magical creation similar to one.
2) It has no ability scores listed. Therefore it has none. It does have the benefit of a +5 Dexterity bonus so that could be used as applicable by GM ruling.
3) It gets to roll a D20 on saving throws. Generous GM's may allow a +5 on Reflex saves. Since no mental or physical stats are listed, some spells that affect those things may simply not affect the quasi real horse like creature. That too would be up to a GM to decide.
4) It has no applicable senses whatsoever. It's movement is guided by the caster or the one it was cast for. It has a limited ability to interact with it's environment as described by the spell effects giving it AC & HP's (substance) and movement.
5) Ask your GM. That is the only rule covered in the books for cases like this.
6) No CMD is listed. Combat maneuvers do not affect it.
7) As a quasi real conjuration it has no HD and therefore is immune to things that require HD to affect them.
8) It has no skill ranks or modifiers as they are not part of the spells intent or effect and none are listed. You are not summoning an actual horse.
9) It is not alive. It is a conjuration creation spell effect which makes 'something' from magical energy. It does not live and therefore would not be affected by anything that requises an actual biosystem to affect it.
10) It does not require any special skills to use as it is a spell effect. While it looks similar to a horse for conceptual and descriptive purposes, it is a quasi real shadow creature and therefore mainly a spell effect.
11) It cannot be targeted by a death affect since it is not alive. It is Quasi real. It cannot be reincarnated for the same reason.
Quasi real means mimicing lifelike action in a limited fashion with magic energy or shadow stuff. This is magical energy conjured into horselike form to persue a specific purpose. Anything aside from that is beyond the scope of the spells magic and function.
Creation: a creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates. If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, magic holds the creation together, and when the spell ends, the conjured creature or object vanishes without a trace. If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence.
So this is not an actual living creature. It is matter made to mimic many aspects OF an actual creature (hence quasi real instead of real and horse LIKE instead of actual horse). Therefore it only has the attributes explicitly listed in the spell.
I'm unwilling to except answers that both logic and rules can show are wrong. I may not know the correct answer to this question, but that doesn't mean I'm incapable of picking out incorrect ones.
Show where rules prove any of the answers you have been given wrong, also please elaborate on the faults in the logic presented to you. let me give it a shot chief.
1.It has no creature type because it is not a actual living creature. At best it is a substantial illusion.
2.It has no ability scores. It has no need of them. It has no intellect, it has no strength, it has no constitution, it has no wisdom and it has no charisma. It does however have a listed Dexterity bonus to it's Armor Class just in case a dippy player decides to waste his actions attacking it.
3.It has no saving throws, it is not a living creature it does not actively defend itself. it will run through fire, acid, lava whatever you are dumb enough to make it run through and never flinch and if it gets engulfed in a fire ball as you are riding it, it takes full damage and goes away.
A nice game master may allow you to use the Magic Item rules for saving throws for your sparkle pony if you are lucky.
4.It has no Perception because it has no actual eyes to see with, it has no actual ears to hear with no actual nose to scent with and no actual brain to make sense of any of the information to begin with.
5.It has no other abilities aside from the ones listed by level. Yes it is in fact immune to mind effecting spells and abilities because it in fact has no mind to influence.
6.It has no CMD because, once again it does not actively defend itself. It has no sense of self preservation because it is not a real boy.. I mean living creature.
7.While you absolutely could waste a spell on enervating the Steed, it has no levels to lose so it would effectively do nothing. Again it can not be put to sleep because it lacks both hit dice and being awake which are two very important criteria of the sleep spell.
8.None and none. It does not swim, it does not jump, it does not climb. Thus as you gain levels the spell gains in power to overcome those short comings.
9.It does not breath, it has no need to, it is not alive. Thus inhaled poisons would not work.
10.No, it travels where you will it to with your mind. It has no will, it does not engage in combat. Though I would imagine you would still require Ride checks in order to perform any "saddle tricks".
11.It is not alive, death effects are meaningless to it, it is not dead reincarnation would do nothing. If you wished for it to be a real pony then you could kill it with a death effect and rez it with a forced reincarnation whatever that is.
I understand that the word "Phantom" has you confuzzled broseph but let me assure you it is not a ghost, it was never at any point alive, conversely it is also not, nor will it ever be dead. It is essentially a large blob of magical energy in the SHAPE of a horse.
Thank you for your response, Gilfalas. While I'm not 100% certain all of your answers are correct they certainly help point me in a solid, consistant direction.
@ 8 Red Wizards: Awww, you're butt-hurt that I didn't accept your logically inconsistant answer that unconcsious people, unintelligent undead, and even objects get saving throws against fireball, but a creature created via magic (which should follow the rules of creatures except otherwise noted, as in phantom steed specifically mentioning it not being able to attack) doesn't for a reason which isn't stated in the CRB ("no sense of survival"). It's really, really cute that you don't back up your statements when repeatedly called into question and then make claims about others. It is not just me that disagrees with you either. It looks like both Remco Sommeling and Gilfalas feel that the steed is entitled to a saving throw as well, though the value of that saving throw varies from person to person.
This site really needs an "hide/ignore poster" function.
@ Vazok Goregrin: In regards to your first answer; the spell is a Conjuration (creation) spell; definitely not an illusion.
It looks like everyones' opinions on how the spell functions differ a bit. It certainly could use some cleaning up.
You're trying to go to some particular corner with this question. What exactly is it that you wish to do with or to a Phantom Steed? That will determine what answers you should be looking for.
Mostly I'm trying to figure out the statistics of phantom steed since it is capable of being attacked. Saving throws, immunities; that sort of thing. Mostly, but not entirely, relavent to area of effect attacks incase the PCs get assaulted while riding them. Also just how horselike "horselike" is, whether it is statistic and functional or merely in appearance, and whether or not I should require handle animal and ride checks to control it in and out of battle.
...It's not a creature, not an object, just a mobile spell effect.
This is where the confusion comes in. The effect line in the spell description lists it as a creature and it is a Conjuration (creation) spell, which can create actual creatures and objects. Unseen servant is similiar, but different in the sense that it doesn't use the word "creature" in its effects listing with is a specific game-term. Unseen servant also specifically spells out that it cannot climb or swim, where as phantom steed does not. As a creature I was assuming that the steed generally followed the rules of creatures unless otherwise stated, but values were missing and I'm getting varying answers. I'm not neccessiarily opposed to the steed not getting a saving throw if I can be shown why it doesn't in a coherant way, but the last person who claimed that tried to give a ridicoulous spin on it by adding things where there weren't ("no sense of surival") that didn't hold up to reason - objects and the unconcious get saving throws where they would also have no "sense of surival" and the horselike creature will actively dodge attacks with a Dexterity modifier.
The neccessity of skill checks to control it are also of concern, to a lesser degree though, as the DCs are generally quite low and easily accomplished by low-level characters.
Chalk it up to variances in the flavor text. Rememember that you are going to see the same kinds of words used for flavor as you do in crunch.
The relevant information is in the part I quoted above. It has hit points and an armor class,nothing else. You want to get rid of a steed, blast away it's feeble amount of hit points.... done. Or hit it with a dispell or disjoin. You're making the mistake of letting the rest of the text complicate the straight forward combat stat part.
As to why, It can be shown that it does not get saves as it does not have the relevant stats to target. It's an exception and as a special case exception it has it's own unique kind of stat block. From there basic general rules apply.
Okay, so if I accept that it isn't actually a creature and that phrasing is simply flavor text (which I'm not 100% I do just yet- they are usually pretty careful about wording such things to avoid game terms, but it is a spell that is pretty much copy-pasted from D&D v.3.5, so who knows), and that a phantom steed is treated as a spell effect instead, with only a small handfull of creature-esque qualities, like HP and AC (though no saving throws nor CMD; which is the part that still vexes me about this section), should its movement be impeded by poor visibility (it notes that it is impedded by rough terrian already) or solid fog? Can it trip on slippery surfaces, such as a grease affected area or ice? Can it be flat-footed as it has a Dexterity bonus to AC? (For anyone who asserts that the creature has no senses, skills, or saves.)
I'm not going to write a book of responses to this spell, I don't see why you think it needs a chapter of rules devoted to it.
The answer to that question is going to depend on the effective caster level the spelll is at. When it begins it's nothing much more than a horse trotting on the ground, at the upper levels the thing flies. and it has a gradation of abilities in between. If you can't figure out how to deal with this spell as a DM from the info provided.... just ban it and it's cousins from your game. I'm done.
Remember that it is rider directed. Whatever impedes the rider pretty much impedes the steed.
*opens door on stage right, exits thread*
Adjucating the spell any which way opens up a whole can of worms; questions that need to be answered. While I could houserule problems with phantom steed away, or ban the spell entirely, I like to attempt to stick as closely as reasonable to the rules, so I'm fair and consistant, and so if I run for new players/groups we can all expect to be on the same page while going over as few rule changes as possible. Judging from the variety of answers I've received in this thread, however, I'm begining to wonder if anyone really knows how the spell is supposed to function.
So far you are the only one who remotely questions what I've suggested...
There are others who have disagreed with what you've answered. You stated the steed doesn't get a saving throw. Gilfalas and Remco both stated the opposite. While they didn't come out and question you, they did post something in direct opposition to what you posted. I'm more questioning your reasoning than your answer. Without coherant reasoning any answer from anyone is no better than a guess.
Now you need to know that a creation spell made out of thin air, and not summoned or removed from one place and brought to you.
Yes; I've covered this extensively.
This spell has no intelligence, wisdom or charisma so it doesn't think for itself, and doesn't care if it dies so it doesn't act like a creature.
The bolded part is where you are adding stuff that doesn't make sense. The effect line of the spell description states that it is a creature- what would make it not act like a creature. If it doesn't care if it dies, why does it actively dodge attacks with a Dexterity bonus to AC?
Unconscious people don't get a reflex save, because they are denied Dexterity, and unable to react or move to the Fireball in question. Unintelligent undead are monsters and objects don't get reflex saving throws all the object based spells are Fortitude spells.
I don't think you understand the rules as well as you think you do. Unconcious creatures certainly get saving throws, even Reflex saving throws. Objects do as well (attended using the saving throws of their wielder, and magic objects with their own bonuses based on CL, 2 + 1/2 CL if I'm not mistaken, even when unattended). Reflex represents a certain amount of luck as well, so even if something has a 0 Dexterity and is paralyzed they get a save at their bonus adjucated with the Dexterity penalty (making it unlikely to succeed, but indeed possible).
There is no reason to ban this spell in any game.
I agree, I was responding to the poster above who suggested that I do.
So far all of your questions have been hit on Continuously, and it's all been the same response it doesn't have those extra stats, the saving throws, skills or just a stat block...
Not true; again, I've had varying responses from you, Vazok Goregrin, Gilfalas, LazarX, and Remco Sommeling. While many answers have stayed constant, important things such as saving throws are not agreed on. The steed is obviously affected by terrain until 8th level, I believe, and saving throws and acrobatics modifiers would determine whether or not it is affected by by a grease spell, for example.
...but you could house rule the "Phantom Steed" Spell and give it a Riding Horses Stat Block.
I'm considering treating it as so for its ungiven statistics, as the words "horselike creature" are used to describe the spell in its effect listing, steadily leading me to believe that this may actually be the intent.
That would be correct attended objects get a reflex save, but they use the objects owners reflex save so it's not the objects reflex save. So if you put the object on the ground than it gets no reflex save.
Magic objects as well, get a saving throw, even if unattended (as in on the ground), with a bonus of 2 + 1/2 their CL, to even their Reflex. They do, in fact, have a Reflex save seperate from others. If wielded, they use their wielder's save only if it is higher than theirs.
The incoherent reasons that you say I have are, because it's not the answer you want. All of my answers have been very coherent, and under the guidelines of the spell without adding anything extra which is what you want is to add something extra to the spell. The only people I see who disagrees with me stated the Spell is an actual creature.
Where does the spell use the words "no sense of survival?"
The spell clearly states in its effect line that it creates a creature.
Note that the horse wether it is or isn't an actual creature works in just about all ways as a construct, give it the base saves of the wizard that created it, which will ammount to R +6(11) F +6 W +12(7) at level 20.
It will be immune to most effects forcing fortitude and will saves and if subjected to them either fail almost certainly or 'die' despite making the save, reflex save is ok at the lower levels but will fail almost every save around level 15.
I suppose you might want to buff it up to increase it's survivability, it is vague enough as it is, might just want to ask your GM how he rules it, once people get around to polymorphing, hasting, stoneskinning, bard singing and party buffing the steed things might get a bit weird.
I happen to agree with the OP that there are some questions that need to be resolved.
Either:
A) It is a spell effect and is thus not subject to spells and attacks that do not attack it's AC. AC is the only provided exception to the general concept that spell effects do not take damage.
OR
B) It is a creature (as the spell description states) and thus has all the benefits and hinderances of being a creature. If B then there is a vast amount of information missing.
I would tend towards B but then treat it as a horse in all respects except for AC, hitpoints, and dexterity. Anything that stems from the change to dexterity should also be changed (such as CMD, Reflex saves etc).
It is a confusing spell where it is a creature and yet it is not a creature.
*waits for the flames to begin*
- Gauss
LazarX, do you have anything to back up the statement that it takes damage from a fireball? If it is not a creature (ie: it is a spell) then it does not take damage from a fireball unless the spell description states it takes damage from area attack spells.
If it IS a creature it has a reflex save.
Cannot have it both ways.
- Gauss
LazarX, I agree that it can be interpreted that way. But the fact is both sides are basing this off of opinion rather than any form of RAW. There are no citations outside of the spell description itself.
The question is a reasonable question with up to 3 answers (if we add your C to the list).
So now we have:
A) it is a spell
B) it is a creature
C) it is a spell that suffers damage like a creature
Personally, I disagree with C and A since the spell description indicates it is a creature. However, that is my personal take and outside of the spell I have nothing to back it up with.
Perhaps we should just cut to the chase and ask James Jacobs?
- Gauss
P.S. Mount is just a travel spell too. That is also conjuration (summoning in this case). It would be simpler had they just given the Phantom Steed spell the same wording as the mount spell with some extra powers and been done with it.
Interesting that you demote James Jacobs's ruling since he just ruled in your favor.
Personally, that doesn't bother me as I just see the various viewpoints and realize that a question is present. While I had my own favorite I was not attached to it.
Regarding C as I presented it, my apologies. When I posted it to James Jacobs I did a better job of it. Note: I swapped B and C in the question for clarity's sake. Your C is now B in my question.
Gauss wrote:
There is a question regarding Phantom Steed. The question revolves around whether it is a spell with a couple specific vulnerabilities or if it is a creature.The three current viewpoints are:
A) Phantom Steed is a spell-effect with hitpoints but can only be targeted by attacks that are specifically described in the spell description (ie: attacks against AC).
B) Phantom Steed is a spell-effect with hitpoints but can be targeted by any attack that damages hitpoints (including area attacks). If hit by an area attack it automatically fails it's save.
C) Phantom Steed creates a creature with hitpoints and thus suffers any attacks (including area attacks) that a creature can suffer.
Any advice would be appreciated as always.
- Gauss
The answer is B.
- Gauss