summoner spell selection help

[Xavier319]

this is for one of my players, he asked for my help with his spell selection. he's a melee summoner, and planning on having a biped weapon-wielding eidolon. these are his spells by level, if you see any glaring issues, let me know and i'll pass them on. he's never played a summoner before, and it looks alright to me, but i've never played on either. he's also the only arcane caster in the party, there's a full caster cleric as well.

Spells Known:

1: 0- Read Magic, Detect Magic, Message, Guidance
1- Grease, Mage Armor

2: 0- Mending
1- Protection from Evil

3: 0- Mage Hand
1- Enlarge Person

4: 2- Haste, Lesser Evolution Surge

5: 2- Glitterdust

6: 2- Barkskin

7: 1- Unseen Servant
3- Black Tentacles, Dimension Door

8: 3- Spiked Pit

9: 3- Heroism

10: 2- Resist Energy, Lesser Evolution Surge to Slow
4- Wall of Stone, Greater Evolution Surge

11: 1- Reduce Person
4- Overland Flight

12: 4- Teleport

13: 3- Fire Shield
5- Greater Heroism, Tar Pool

14: 2- Invisibility
5- Ethereal Jaunt

15: 4- Teleport to Baleful Polymorph
5- Greater Teleport

16: 4- Magic Jar
6- Greater Planar Binding, Maze

17: 3- Dimensional Anchor
6- Walk Through Space

18: 6- Dominate Monster

19: 5- Greater Dispel Magic

20: 4- Major Creation
6- Create Demiplane

[Axebeard]

That looks like a really solid selection of spells. The only advice I might have just off the cuff is to consider picking up See Invisibility somewhere around 7 or so (or at least get a scroll of it) for glitterdusting foes who are under the effects of improved invis. You could probably put it off for a while longer than that, but 9 is when I'd anticipate the greatest return for the investment of a spell known.

From time to time, you have improved invisible flying spellcasters, and they're a real bugaboo to track down and glitterdust so the fighters can knock 'em out of the air for you.

[Drejk]

While protection from evil is good spell I would consider taking shield at second level as it can be shared with eidolon granting it +4 shield bonus to AC. Together with mage armor it can boost eidolon's AC considerably.

[Xavier319]

was planning on a wand of see invis and a wand of shield early on. thanks guys! also, i'm curious. is a 16 str enough for a melee summoner? his build looks good, i just wanna make sure he doesnt build something that'll loose steam around 10 or so and fail.

he's using a longspear, and took mostly support and two melee feats, power attack and eventually arcane strike. he took resilient eidolon also in order to keep his striker around when he inevitably goes down. i can post the build if you guys wanna see it.

[Pumperknicle]

Xavier319 wrote:

was planning on a wand of see invis and a wand of shield early on. thanks guys! also, i'm curious. is a 16 str enough for a melee summoner? his build looks good, i just wanna make sure he doesnt build something that'll loose steam around 10 or so and fail.

he's using a longspear, and took mostly support and two melee feats, power attack and eventually arcane strike. he took resilient eidolon also in order to keep his striker around when he inevitably goes down. i can post the build if you guys wanna see it.

If he keeps himself buffed he should do alright, I suggest getting spring attack and vital strike so he can poke and run, only problem would be gold as he would have to buy alot of enchantments and meta-magic rods

or, he could try synthesist, my new favorite class.

[MC Templar]

It doesn't look like there are any 'rejuvenate eidolon' spells on the list, is he going to rely entirely on the priest for healing his pet?

[Xavier319]

well, in combat, his rejuvenate spells cant keep up with damage. he's planning on getting wands for out of combat. but otherwise, yes, the cleric. here's his build. the first level feat, is for fluff reasons. he's a shoanti, hence the totem thing and the magical tattoo crafting. since they are slotless, he can put them on his eidolon without taking up a magic item slot so he can wear a full gamut of items, pretty clever of him i thought. His stats were rolled, i watched.

NG Human Shoanti Male

Summoner 20

Str 16
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 10
Cha 17+2 (all)

HPs: 8+?+6

Trait: Lessons of Chaldira
Trait: Chance Savior
Trait: Focused Mind

Skills: 5
Spellcraft 2
UMD at 3+
Craft at 2
knowledge arcana and planes 1 rank
Diplomacy 2
perception 2

1- Spell Focus: Conjuration
R Totem Spirit: Shundar-Quah
3- Augment Summoning
5- Inscribe Magical Tattoo
7- Power Attack
9- Improved Initiative
11- Resilient Eidolon
13- Arcane Strike
15- Defensive Combat Training
17- Superior Summoning
19- Toughness

[Qik]

Personally, I would forgo the Augment Summoning route with any Summoner other than a Master Summoner: it sounds like he's going to have his eidolon out more often than not, yes? If so, that feat is going to lie unused a majority of the time. How about Extra Evolution for a substitute? You're trading a feat that improves your backup ability (the SLA summons) for one that improves your main ability (the eidolon).

Along those lines, I would definitely throw Extra Evolution in for Toughness at 19 - at that point in the game, I don't think Toughness is really worth it.

If I was building a melee summoner, I'd have Str as my primary attribute, since I'd be focusing on my melee prowess rather than my spells (which I'd use primarily for buffing and utility, rather than battlefield control). Might be a bit different in this case, though, given that he's the only arcane caster in the group.

Having both the summoner and the eidolon take Precise Strike gives them each an extra 1d6 precision damage when flanking. Pretty nice.

Just a few thoughts; hope they're helpful.

[james maissen]

It seems as if the summoner is all over the place.

He has precious little invested in going into melee.

If a 3/4BAB PC is going to do this, then they need to devote a goodly number of resources towards it.

Have them decide what their priorities are.

Here's a suggestion: ask the summoner character what their first 3 actions are likely to look like in a combat. It is likely that they will come to realize that their first actions will be buffing actions on their eidolon. Hence the investment in personal melee combat is, imho, misplaced.

As to spell selection- I would get enlarge person earlier, and also focus on buffing spells for the party and eidolon.

If you want to have the summoner directly in melee then I would suggest greater invisibility, likely supported by the non-detection spell.

-James

[Xavier319]

he says most of his battles will be a round or two with buffs or battlefield control, then he plans on joining his eidolon in melee. with his buffs hitting himself as well half the time, he figures he'll be fine, as fine as a cleric or other medium BAB class is in melee. The reason he took augment summoning is that the eidolon is not super hard to take out. and when it goes down, and it will, he wants to have his SLA be useful (his words). Looking at it, having a 16 str versus an 18 str wont really make a huge diff, the higher CHA will mean more in the long run i think. how would you invest more in melee? i'm curious. or, how would you extend a summoner's stamina if he's playing a purely support role, since their spells per day are slightly short of the mark.

[Xavier319]

this is what he came up with. he decided to abandon the whole 'melee summoner' idea. he's going for a crafter and sort of an 'artificer lite' build. using the eidolon and summons as the fighter, and using rods, tattoos and wands to keep up a constant stream of battlefield control and buffs, since the summoner spells are lower level, reducing cost of the items. opinions?

NG Human Shoanti Male

Summoner 20

Str 10
Dex 14
Con 16
Int 14
Wis 14
Cha 17+2 (all)

HPs: 8+?+9

Trait: Lessons of Chaldira
Trait: Chance Savior
Trait: Focused Mind

Skills: 5
Spellcraft 2
UMD at 3+
Craft at 2
knowledge arcana and planes 1 rank
Diplomacy 2
perception 2

1- Spell Focus: Conjuration
R Improved Initative
3- Augment Summoning
5- Inscribe Magical Tattoo
7- Craft wand
9- Resilient Eidolon
11- Craft Staff
13- Superior Summoning
15-
17-
19- Toughness

[james maissen]

Xavier319 wrote:

this is what he came up with. he decided to abandon the whole 'melee summoner' idea. he's going for a crafter and sort of an 'artificer lite' build. using the eidolon and summons as the fighter, and using rods, tattoos and wands to keep up a constant stream of battlefield control and buffs, since the summoner spells are lower level, reducing cost of the items. opinions?

I like halfling summoners that pick up stealth as a class skill. I think a summoner as a support class is best when its harder to target them.

-James

[Xavier319]

true, but human is part of his backstory