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The fact that you can't create a partial wand means you would have to luck into finding a wand with exactly how many charges you could afford.
It is allowed, the judge ruled. But let us end the farce that it is something that you can acquire commonly in most campaigns, or that you could walk into the magic mart and find exactly the wands with exactly the charges you need.
Doesn't strike me as that much more unlikely than finding any other particular specific item you're looking for at a magic mart. If we were expecting realistic supply and demand, Golarion would have giant factories devoted to cranking out a steady supply of the big six magical items that every single adventurer always buys.
Heck, I would think cheap partially charged wands would be all over the place. After all, they're cheap. The vast bulk of people in the pathfinder universe aren't exactly rolling in cashy money. Getting a freshly made and fully charged wand would be out of most people's price range. A cheap, mostly used up wand, on the other hand, fits into the budget of a whole lot of people who couldn't afford one otherwise.
Here is the main problem. In this instance, you can't assume that a shop is going to have anything except what's in the books. DM's are the ones who put items in shops that are different than whats in the books. To make sure that everyone is singing from the same hymm sheet, we need to use exactly whats in the books and not assume that you are going to find half used wands and such. If the book contains a half used wand then go for it but if it doesn't then don't assume you will find one.
Hell if you want to go that route, I could write it in my background that I talked a merchant into selling me a +5 vorpal longsword for a few quid.
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The fact that you can't create a partial wand means you would have to luck into finding a wand with exactly how many charges you could afford.
It is allowed, the judge ruled. But let us end the farce that it is something that you can acquire commonly in most campaigns, or that you could walk into the magic mart and find exactly the wands with exactly the charges you need.
Doesn't strike me as that much more unlikely than finding any other particular specific item you're looking for at a magic mart. If we were expecting realistic supply and demand, Golarion would have giant factories devoted to cranking out a steady supply of the big six magical items that every single adventurer always buys.
Heck, I would think cheap partially charged wands would be all over the place. After all, they're cheap. The vast bulk of people in the pathfinder universe aren't exactly rolling in cashy money. Getting a freshly made and fully charged wand would be out of most people's price range. A cheap, mostly used up wand, on the other hand, fits into the budget of a whole lot of people who couldn't afford one otherwise.
And as was pointed out upthread there are rules for what items would presumably be in a specific location at a given time. As the math was laid out, the unlikelihood of finding a specific wand with a specific charge became clear.
Not to mention the metagaming involved with buying partial wands. I am very glad that the types of builds I predicted would occur are now coming to fruition. It's like if Avatar had a fifth bender type: The Rulebender.
If I brought a 2nd level character with partial wands in the perfect amount to get around WBL to any table I've ever played at I would be laughed at and not invited back.
But it is allowed for the purposes of this discussion, so long as Ashiel also brings her build down to actual WBL. And again, I think it only helps my argument to have such builds posted.
I think shopping at a giant store like walmart is wis based not like at a stall or market district which is charisma based. I also think there should be partially charged wands. The wand doesn't disapper when an adventurers dies for example after using some charges.
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i have a little comment about the "magic mart" myth. many people think it breaks immersion because they see it as a corporate chain of superstores, like a fantasy equivalent to walmart. but i offer an alternate way to visualize it that makes it less immersion breaking.
imagine, not a multilevel superstore, but a massive market district, a series of stalls. each stall on it's own might not have everything, but each might have a handful of "special" items intended for niche customers. these "special" items rarely exceed the community wealth limit, but are so "niche" that most customers wouldn't really buy them. this could be anything from a magical exotic weapon to a partially charged wand of cure light wounds. it's a good idea if the DM and the player in question collaberate on the story of how the NPC got this item.
but it's safe to assume that low level wands, potions and scrolls are generally for sale. in most communities.
Except as the rules are spelled out in the GMG and at least in the Golarion setting, they aren't.
Some people have Christimas tree GM's But that isn't RAW..
I don't want the derail to go to much farther, as the ruling has been made. And I think allowing the wands only helps my argument.
The idea that you would have that much control would be akin to saying that you can find a used car with the make, model, color (without repainting on demand), and the exact millage that you desire. That's unrealistic in this world with its myriad of used car lots.
On an only vaguely related note, I could totally see a used wand seller being exactly like the stereotypical used car salesman. Hope you have good appraise/spellcraft/sense motive...
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I think shopping at a giant store like walmart is wis based not like at a stall or market district which is charisma based. I also think there should be partially charged wands. The wand doesn't disapper when an adventurers dies for example after using some charges.
True, but since they can't be made to order, the odds of finding several that are exactly in your price range are slim to none (and slim just left town...)
So coming into a thread and with a straight face proposing that you would be able to have such a character exist with such things just shows the permissive kind of game you run.
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The idea that you would have that much control would be akin to saying that you can find a used car with the make, model, color (without repainting on demand), and the exact millage that you desire. That's unrealistic in this world with its myriad of used car lots.On an only vaguely related note, I could totally see a used wand seller being exactly like the stereotypical used car salesman. Hope you have good appraise/spellcraft/sense motive...
That is perfectly fine but that's for the DM to decide, not you the player.
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Having the DM cause you to find partially charged wands in his games are one thing but you assuming that you will find them and then adding them to your sheet in situations like this is not on.
100%. I mean a first level commoner might find a rare artifact in some game. Doesn't mean if you are trying to make a case for a class you would use that as an example.
If that is what Ashiel has to resort to in order to make her case, my case is already made.
Although one argument when starting at higher levels is what if you used them and don't start off with a topped off wand but you would have to be able to have bought the wand in the first place.
think not of a giant store but a series of stalls inside a market district. any items that are not available can be commissioned upon request and take time to craft.
the item (if under GP limit) has a 75% chance of being available. also, items over GP limit must be commissiioned.
i imagine low level scrolls and potions are always available for sale, and maybe wands in most cities or larger.
in a metropolis, i assume you can buy a (at best) +3 big 6 item (+4 for singlestat boosters) without needing a commission. but i would allow a commission.
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Although one argument when starting at higher levels is what if you used them and don't start off with a topped off wand but you would have to be able to have bought the wand in the first place.
That was post 666. Not actually the post of the beast, but believed to be by some...
Also if you started off at higher levels and you used the wand along the way, you paid more for the wand originally.
One day I'm going to get a group to do the challenge I proposed farther than book 1....
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think not of a giant store but a series of stalls inside a market district. any items that are not available can be commissioned upon request and take time to craft.
the item (if under GP limit) has a 75% chance of being available. also, items over GP limit must be commissiioned.
i imagine low level scrolls and potions are always available for sale, and maybe wands in most cities or larger.
But you can't craft partial wands. That is the point. You can only craft a fully charged wand.
So to find a wand that had exactly what you wanted is highly unlikely. To find a series of them that all have exactly what you want is just absurd.
That is perfectly fine but that's for the DM to decide, not you the player.The idea that you would have that much control would be akin to saying that you can find a used car with the make, model, color (without repainting on demand), and the exact millage that you desire. That's unrealistic in this world with its myriad of used car lots.On an only vaguely related note, I could totally see a used wand seller being exactly like the stereotypical used car salesman. Hope you have good appraise/spellcraft/sense motive...
Well, that's true of everything. DM is the final arbiter of all.
Personally, I don't see what makes partially charged wands any more problematic than any other specific magic item that there are rules for purchasing in Pathfinder (beyond the inevitable hazards of purchasing secondhand), but different DMs will do different things. Some DMs ban monks and rogues for being overpowered and think wizards desperately need to be boosted up.
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i imagine low level scrolls and potions are always available for sale, and maybe wands in most cities or larger.
That can be doe and it would be fine but still is DM-dependent.
What it seems to be implied is the ranger is good at level 2 only if he can find/buy a couple of partially charged wands.
Of course that is not true, that is the reason i would like to see a build that does not depend of the details of any specific campaing.
I agree. I would love for someone to step up with a legit build to make this a real discussion. If a problem exists, we should identify it so it could be fixed.
So far the only problem we have discovered is that some GMs are to permissive with allowing loose rules readings.
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That is perfectly fine but that's for the DM to decide, not you the player.The idea that you would have that much control would be akin to saying that you can find a used car with the make, model, color (without repainting on demand), and the exact millage that you desire. That's unrealistic in this world with its myriad of used car lots.On an only vaguely related note, I could totally see a used wand seller being exactly like the stereotypical used car salesman. Hope you have good appraise/spellcraft/sense motive...Well, that's true of everything. DM is the final arbiter of all.
Personally, I don't see what makes partially charged wands any more problematic than any other specific magic item that there are rules for purchasing in Pathfinder (beyond the inevitable hazards of purchasing secondhand), but different DMs will do different things. Some DMs ban monks and rogues for being overpowered and think wizards desperately need to be boosted up.
Do you get to decide what items a stall has or does the DM do that?
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Well, that's true of everything. DM is the final arbiter of all.Personally, I don't see what makes partially charged wands any more problematic than any other specific magic item that there are rules for purchasing in Pathfinder (beyond the inevitable hazards of purchasing secondhand), but different DMs will do different things. Some DMs ban monks and rogues for being overpowered and think wizards desperately need to be boosted up.
Because things have prices for a reason. If she had to pay actual price, she couldn't afford any of those things at 2nd level.
But bending the rules and hand waving availability guidelines, and suddenly you are playing a different game where low level wealth problems are no problem at all.
Do you get to decide what items a stall has or does the DM do that?That is perfectly fine but that's for the DM to decide, not you the player.The idea that you would have that much control would be akin to saying that you can find a used car with the make, model, color (without repainting on demand), and the exact millage that you desire. That's unrealistic in this world with its myriad of used car lots.On an only vaguely related note, I could totally see a used wand seller being exactly like the stereotypical used car salesman. Hope you have good appraise/spellcraft/sense motive...Well, that's true of everything. DM is the final arbiter of all.
Personally, I don't see what makes partially charged wands any more problematic than any other specific magic item that there are rules for purchasing in Pathfinder (beyond the inevitable hazards of purchasing secondhand), but different DMs will do different things. Some DMs ban monks and rogues for being overpowered and think wizards desperately need to be boosted up.
DM decides, obviously. Like I said in the last post, the DM is the final arbiter of all.
Out of curiosity, once everyone else's builds move up a bit, will they all have to roll for availability of every single magical items they purchase too? Fair is fair, after all.
Well, that's true of everything. DM is the final arbiter of all.Personally, I don't see what makes partially charged wands any more problematic than any other specific magic item that there are rules for purchasing in Pathfinder (beyond the inevitable hazards of purchasing secondhand), but different DMs will do different things. Some DMs ban monks and rogues for being overpowered and think wizards desperately need to be boosted up.
Because things have prices for a reason. If she had to pay actual price, she couldn't afford any of those things at 2nd level.
But bending the rules and hand waving availability guidelines, and suddenly you are playing a different game where low level wealth problems are no problem at all.
Pathfinder has prices for used wands. If they went to all the trouble of putting a price/value formula in the book, presumably the Devs anticipated the possibility of people buying/selling partially charged wands.
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DM decides, obviously. Like I said in the last post, the DM is the final arbiter of all.Out of curiosity, once everyone else's builds move up a bit, will they all have to roll for availability of every single magical items they purchase too? Fair is fair, after all.
It is also the fact you can't make those wands. Everything else you can commission someone to make. You literally can not make partial wands.
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Can we drop the whole wand issue already?
You guys asked me to judge, I did. You asked me to be imparital and fair, I believe I did that too.
What I said is what i trully believe is the rightest for this debate. I'm sticking to RAW as closely as I can, wile trying to mantain common sense. If one day any of you play with me, RAW won't be the end-all be all, but when dealing with different people, from different places, with different ideas and backgrounds, RAW is all we have.
I don't even see the problem with partial wands. (Please, pleases, don't explain again how unlikely it's to find them, I got it. I really did.) I can also give dozens of explanations for why they can be found, maybe you bought them from another adventuring party, maybe you found them lying around in a dungeon or in a magic mart.
WBL is a way to measure what equipment you should HAVE, not what you BOUGHT. Characters could have full access to their WBL without ever buying a single item.
In my understanding, that includes partially charged wands, just like it's very possible for you to find a single arrow, even if they are only sold in packs of 50.
You may not agree with my ruling, and that's okay, I've never claimed to be infalible or even have better knowledge of the rules as written. I even suggested that someone else were the judge.
However I enjoy this debate, and I love rangers and fighters, despite any views I have about their relative usefulness. So when people asked me to try and judge this fairly, I did my best.
But right now I'm not sure there is any point in doing it. If each and every judgement I pass will be endlessy disputed and/or ignored.
Ciretose,I'm not trying to favor Ashiel or anybody (I even agreed with you on the 2nd level wealth, remember?), if anything, I'm eager that you prove my opinion on fighters wrong, but you sometimes come off as being unnecessarilly rude.
This one time, can you make this one concession and let the wands slip and move on? This is getting repetitive.
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Lemmy, I'm not mad at you. It isn't a matter of letting it slip or not. It is a factor to be judged. You are in a bad spot, and if you didn't allow it then she could try and say it was unfair and the whole thing could be derailed.
Allowing it lets light into the workshop, and sunlight is the best disinfectant.
In no adventure path or campaign could you reasonably think the character she just put up at 2nd level would occur if you started from 1st level.
None.
So in attempting to show how much better Ranger's are, she is putting forth a functionally impossible build if developed from first level in any reasonable campaign.
And I think that is great. Because it shows that her perception of the game is twisted by the permissive play style in her games.
If that is what she puts forward to show that fighters can't compete, I feel like the debate is more or less over for anyone who doesn't follow her play style.
Which I think would be most people who play.
I am following your judgement, so is she. You did nothing wrong.
But just as I would have to defend my build if I did something that others thought was ridiculous, so does she.
And how people view it is the basis.
When you come on the messageboard and declare something, it is fair to be called on to justify what you posted.
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Disclaimer: Personally I think both classes have their places, and it's more a question of what the rest of the party is as to which fits best.
-James
I agree with this. Rangers are more versatile with regards to non-combat, in exchange for being somewhat less versatile and powerful in combat.
Actual builds almost always come down to who else you are adventuring with. But I'm trying to build a fighter that would fit anywhere, more or less.
On a final note about the wand issue, I find it mystifying and amusing that every other response to me was some variation of appealing to the authority of the GM to try to prove me wrong. Mostly because I was approaching the situation from a perspective of what I would be alright with allowing in the game I'm GMing. The joy assumptions.
Hmm...what's a good a name for sleazy used magical goods store anyway? This discussion has made me want to include one in my game...
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The whole debate about the wands is it's basically cheap spells in the amount I can afford...not spells outside my budget.
Otherwise, she'd have to rely on double cost potions anyone can use, OR simply not have them.
I mean, it's completely reasonable to use partial wands. But it's not reasonable to dictate the number of charges. Sure, there's probably a CLW wand in town. But it's got 27 charges, not 5. You can't buy individual charges, and that's what Ashiel is doing.
You can buy individual magic arrows, by comparison.
The correct thing to do, Lemmy, is probably to allow partial wands if you want to buy them for a build, and then roll %/2 to see how many charges they have. If it's too many for your budget, tough.
Finding them as loot is something else entirely.
So, yes, being able to buy a partial wand is RAW and allowable. Being able to set the charge amount? No. ANd if it won't carry across all games, it's really got no business in this discussion. There's tons of GM's who simply would not allow it.
==Aelryinth
Problem is, how do we roll % dice on a forum discussion? We have limitations that would not be there in a real game.
That is why I'm going by RAW.
In a game I'm DMing... yeah, I'd think twice before allowing any character to find an used wand, but it'd not be out of possibility.
I'm trying to keep the common sense, as in, IIRC, AM Barbarian never sleeps 'cause by RAW, there is no penalty for never sleeping, that'd be simply idiotic to consider in a serious campaign, just like saying "I won't fall because there are no rules for gravity".
I'm trying to work with the tools I'm given.
Really, if anyone has a good and viable idea of how to randomly determine if anyone can find a given item in the city market or in the dungeon or whatever, I'm listening.
How about we skip to level 6? By then, character are relying more on their class features than consumables.
Here's Spruce Zypherleaf at level 2:
SPRUCE ZYPHERLEAF
Male Elf Fighter (Mobile Fighter) 2
CG Medium Humanoid (Elf)
Init +5; Senses Low-Light Vision; Perception +8
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DEFENSE
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AC 19, touch 13, flat-footed 16. . (+5 armor, +1 shield, +2 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 14 (2d10-2)
Fort +2, Ref +3, Will +1
Defensive Abilities Agility; Immune sleep; Resist Elven Immunities
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OFFENSE
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Spd 20 ft.
Melee Club +4 (1d6+2/20/x2) and
. . Dagger +4 (1d4+2/19-20/x2) and
. . Masterwork Longsword +2 (1d8+2/19-20/x2) and
. . Masterwork Shortsword +2 (1d6+1/19-20/x2)
Ranged Shortbow +5 (1d6/20/x3) and
. . Sling +5 (1d4+2/20/x2)
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STATISTICS
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Str 14, Dex 17, Con 8, Int 15, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +2; CMB +4; CMD 17
Feats Cosmopolitan: Perception, Knowledge (Nature), Dodge, Elven Weapon Proficiencies, Two-weapon Fighting
Traits Bandit (River Kingdoms): Stealth, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +0, Climb +3, Escape Artist +0, Fly +0, Handle Animal +4, Intimidate +3, Knowledge (Nature) +6, Perception +8, Ride +0, Stealth +6, Survival +5, Swim -1 Modifiers Silent Hunter
Languages Common, Draconic, Elven, Giant, Orc, Sylvan
Combat Gear Arrows (20), Buckler, Bullets, Sling (20), Club, Dagger, Kilted Armored Coat, Masterwork Longsword, Masterwork Shortsword, Shortbow, Sling; Other Gear Potion of Cure Light Wounds, Potion of Enlarge Person, Potion of Shield of Faith
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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Arrows - 0/20
Bullets, Sling - 0/20
Club - 0/1
Dagger - 0/1
Potion of Cure Light Wounds - 0/1
Potion of Enlarge Person - 0/1
Potion of Shield of Faith - 0/1
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Agility +1 (Ex) +1 save vs. Paralyzation, slowing, or entangling
Bandit (River Kingdoms): Stealth +1 to Stealth checks, Stealth is always a class skill for you.
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to Sleep effects.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Silent Hunter Reduce Steath penalty for moving by -5, can make Stealth checks while running (at -20 - includes reduced penalty).
Remember that he has a pet dog that helps him hunt. It's similar in concept of bringing the ox along except I don't get to eat my pet if I can't find food.
And Turret too:
TURRET
Male Halfling Fighter (Armor Master) 2
NN Small Humanoid (Halfling)
Init +7; Senses Perception +4
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DEFENSE
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AC 21, touch 14, flat-footed 19. . (+7 armor, +1 shield, +2 Dex, +1 size)
hp 16 (2d10)
Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +2
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OFFENSE
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Spd 15 ft.
Melee Armor Spikes +5 (1d4+2/20/x2) and
. . Dagger +5 (1d3+2/19-20/x2) and
. . Greataxe +5 (1d10+3/20/x3)
Ranged Masterwork Sling Staff, Halfling +7 (1d6+3/20/x3)
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STATISTICS
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Str 14, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 9
Base Atk +2; CMB +3; CMD 15
Feats Halfling Slinger, Improved Initiative, Whip-Slinger
Traits Armor Expert, Indomitable Faith
Skills Acrobatics +2, Climb -1, Diplomacy +1, Escape Artist +0, Fly +2, Intimidate +4, Perception +4, Ride +0, Stealth +4, Swim -1
Languages Common, Dwarven, Halfling
SQ Deflective Shield +1 (Ex), Fearless, Warslinger
Combat Gear Buckler, Bullets, Sling (20), Dagger, Greataxe, Masterwork Armor Spikes, Kilted Breastplate, Masterwork Sling Staff, Halfling; Other Gear Potion of Cure Light Wounds (2), Potion of Enlarge Person, Potion of Shield of Faith +2
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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Bullets, Sling - 0/20
Dagger - 0/1
Potion of Cure Light Wounds - 0/2
Potion of Enlarge Person - 0/1
Potion of Shield of Faith +2 - 0/1
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Armor Expert -1 Armor check penalty.
Deflective Shield +1 (Ex) +1 bonus to touch AC, up to AC bonus provided by shield worn.
Fearless +2 morale bonus vs Fear saves.
Warslinger Reloading a sling is a free action (which still requires 2 hands and provokes AoO).
Whip-Slinger Use sling as a sap and threaten adjacent spaces.
Neither one can take on the lantern archon (Spruce might be able to if he's enlarged) but why would they? Neither one is likely to be in combat with one.
Skip to level 6? I'll post quickly then. I want to show each level. You can judge them at whichever levels you like.
Remember that he has a pet dog that helps him hunt. It's similar in concept of bringing the ox along except I don't get to eat my pet if I can't find food.
Why not? I heard it's considered delicious and nutritive in Osirion.
Skip to level 6? I'll post quickly then. I want to show each level. You can judge them at whichever levels you like.
Skipping to level 6 was a just a suggestion, if you guys want to post level by level, I'm okay.
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I just figure would contribute with my level 1 fighter ^^
Antal Boredal
1st Level Halfling Fighter (Roughrider)
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Init +5; Perception +2
Hp: 15 (1d10+1)
AC: 21, touch 14, flat 18 (+2 shield, +5 armor, +3 dex, +1 Size)
Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +2 (+2 vs. Fear)
==================================================
Speed 20 ft. (15 ft.)
Melee: Lance +3 (1d6+3), Battleaxe +3 (1d6+2)
Ranged: Sling +4 (1d3+2)
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Str 14, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 9
BAB +1, CMB +2, CMD 15
Traits - +2 Initiative, +1 Will save
Feats – Mounted Combat, Ride-by-Attack
Skills – Acrobatics +5, Climb +9, Handle Animal +3, Perception +2, Ride +7, Stealth +7, Survival +4, Swim +7
Equipment - Weapons, scale mail, heavy wooden shield, War Pony (military saddle, Bit & Bridle), 11 gp worth of goods
While this might not be a Tripper Fighter it is a mounted fighter that can "fit" anywhere and hit decently enough.
Here is Turret in all his glory. I'm kinda rushing through so I can get this build and the other one done quickly.
Level 3
TURRET #3 CR 2
Male Halfling Fighter (Armor Master) 3
NN Small Humanoid (Halfling)
Init +7; Senses Perception +5
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DEFENSE
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AC 23, touch 15, flat-footed 20. . (+8 armor, +1 shield, +3 Dex, +1 size)
hp 22 (3d10)
Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +3
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OFFENSE
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Spd 15 ft.
Melee Armor Spikes +6 (1d4+2/20/x2) and
. . Dagger +6 (1d3+2/19-20/x2) and
. . Greataxe +6 (1d10+3/20/x3)
Ranged Masterwork Sling Staff, Halfling +8 (1d6+3/20/x3)
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STATISTICS
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Str 14, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 9
Base Atk +3; CMB +4; CMD 17
Feats Halfling Slinger, Improved Initiative, Large Target, Whip-Slinger
Traits Armor Expert, Indomitable Faith
Skills Acrobatics +4, Climb +0, Diplomacy +2, Escape Artist +1, Intimidate +5, Perception +5, Ride +1, Stealth +5, Swim +0
Languages Common, Dwarven, Halfling
SQ Armor Training 1 (Ex), Deflective Shield +1 (Ex), Fearless, Warslinger
Combat Gear +1 Armor Spikes, Kilted Agile Breastplate, Buckler, Bullets, Sling (20), Dagger, Greataxe, Masterwork Sling Staff, Halfling; Other Gear Potion of Cure Light Wounds (2), Potion of Enlarge Person, Potion of Shield of Faith +2
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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Bullets, Sling - 0/20
Dagger - 0/1
Potion of Cure Light Wounds - 0/2
Potion of Enlarge Person - 0/1
Potion of Shield of Faith +2 - 0/1
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Armor Expert -1 Armor check penalty.
Armor Training 1 (Ex) Worn armor -1 check penalty, +1 max DEX.
Deflective Shield +1 (Ex) +1 bonus to touch AC, up to AC bonus provided by shield worn.
Fearless +2 morale bonus vs Fear saves.
Large Target +1 precision dam with sling for every size category foe is larger than you.
Warslinger Reloading a sling is a free action (which still requires 2 hands and provokes AoO).
Whip-Slinger Use sling as a sap and threaten adjacent spaces.
Level 4
TURRET #4 CR 3
Male Halfling Fighter (Armor Master) 4
NN Small Humanoid (Halfling)
Init +7; Senses Perception +6
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DEFENSE
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AC 24, touch 15, flat-footed 21. . (+8 armor, +2 shield, +3 Dex, +1 size)
hp 28 (4d10)
Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +3
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OFFENSE
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Spd 15 ft.
Melee Armor Spikes +7 (1d4+2/20/x2) and
. . Dagger +7 (1d3+6/19-20/x2) and
. . Greataxe +7 (1d10+3/20/x3)
Ranged +1 Sling Staff, Halfling +7 (1d6+8/20/x3)
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STATISTICS
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Str 15, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 9
Base Atk +4; CMB +5; CMD 18
Feats Deadly Aim -2/+4, Halfling Slinger, Improved Initiative, Large Target, Whip-Slinger
Traits Armor Expert, Indomitable Faith
Skills Acrobatics +6, Climb +1, Diplomacy +3, Escape Artist +2, Fly +4, Intimidate +6, Perception +6, Ride +2, Stealth +6, Swim +1
Languages Common, Dwarven, Halfling
SQ Armor Training 1 (Ex), Deflective Shield +1 (Ex), Fearless, Warslinger
Combat Gear +1 Armor Spikes, Kilted Agile Breastplate, +1 Buckler, +1 Sling Staff, Halfling, Bullets, Sling (20), Dagger, Greataxe; Other Gear Potion of Cure Light Wounds (2), Potion of Enlarge Person, Potion of Shield of Faith +2
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Bullets, Sling - 0/20
Dagger - 0/1
Potion of Cure Light Wounds - 0/2
Potion of Enlarge Person - 0/1
Potion of Shield of Faith +2 - 0/1
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Armor Expert -1 Armor check penalty.
Armor Training 1 (Ex) Worn armor -1 check penalty, +1 max DEX.
Deadly Aim -2/+4 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Deflective Shield +1 (Ex) +1 bonus to touch AC, up to AC bonus provided by shield worn.
Fearless +2 morale bonus vs Fear saves.
Large Target +1 precision dam with sling for every size category foe is larger than you.
Warslinger Reloading a sling is a free action (which still requires 2 hands and provokes AoO).
Whip-Slinger Use sling as a sap and threaten adjacent spaces.
Level 5
TURRET #5 CR 4
Male Halfling Fighter (Armor Master) 5
NN Small Humanoid (Halfling)
Init +8; Senses Perception +7
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 24, touch 15, flat-footed 21. . (+8 armor, +2 shield, +3 Dex, +1 size)
hp 34 (5d10)
Fort +7, Ref +7, Will +5
DR 3/—
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 15 ft.
Melee Armor Spikes +8 (1d4+2/20/x2) and
. . Dagger +8 (1d3+6/19-20/x2) and
. . Greataxe +8 (1d10+3/20/x3)
Ranged +1 Sling Staff, Halfling +8 (1d6+8/20/x3)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 15, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 9
Base Atk +5; CMB +6; CMD 19
Feats Deadly Aim -2/+4, Halfling Slinger, Improved Initiative, Large Target, Skill Focus: Acrobatics, Whip-Slinger
Traits Armor Expert, Indomitable Faith
Skills Acrobatics +10, Climb +1, Diplomacy +4, Escape Artist +2, Fly +4, Intimidate +7, Perception +7, Ride +2, Stealth +6, Swim +1
Languages Common, Dwarven, Halfling
SQ Armor Training 1 (Ex), Armored Defense (Ex), Deflective Shield +1 (Ex), Fearless, Warslinger
Combat Gear +1 Armor Spikes, Kilted Agile Breastplate, +1 Buckler, +1 Sling Staff, Halfling, Bullets, Sling (20), Dagger, Greataxe; Other Gear Cloak of Resistance, +2, Ioun Stone, Dusty Rose Prism (Cracked), Potion of Cure Light Wounds (2), Potion of Enlarge Person, Potion of Shield of Faith +2
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Bullets, Sling - 0/20
Dagger - 0/1
Potion of Cure Light Wounds - 0/2
Potion of Enlarge Person - 0/1
Potion of Shield of Faith +2 - 0/1
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Armor Expert -1 Armor check penalty.
Armor Training 1 (Ex) Worn armor -1 check penalty, +1 max DEX.
Armored Defense (Ex) At 5th level, an armor master gains DR 1/ - when wearing light armor, DR 2/ - when wearing medium armor, and DR 3/ - when wearing heavy armor. At 19th level, this damage reduction increases to DR 4/ - when wearing light armor, DR 8/ - when wearing me
Damage Reduction (3/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.
Deadly Aim -2/+4 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Deflective Shield +1 (Ex) +1 bonus to touch AC, up to AC bonus provided by shield worn.
Fearless +2 morale bonus vs Fear saves.
Large Target +1 precision dam with sling for every size category foe is larger than you.
Warslinger Reloading a sling is a free action (which still requires 2 hands and provokes AoO).
Whip-Slinger Use sling as a sap and threaten adjacent spaces.
Level 6
TURRET #6 CR 5
Male Halfling Fighter (Armor Master) 6
NN Small Humanoid (Halfling)
Init +8; Senses Perception +8
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 24, touch 16, flat-footed 21. . (+8 armor, +2 shield, +3 Dex, +1 size)
hp 40 (6d10)
Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +6
DR 3/—
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 15 ft.
Melee Armor Spikes +10/+5 (1d4+3/20/x2) and
. . Dagger +10/+5 (1d3+7/19-20/x2) and
. . Greataxe +10/+5 (1d10+4/20/x3)
Ranged +1 Sling Staff, Halfling +9/+4 (1d6+9/20/x3)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 15/17, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 9
Base Atk +6; CMB +8; CMD 21
Feats Ammo Drop, Deadly Aim -2/+4, Halfling Slinger, Improved Initiative, Large Target, Skill Focus: Acrobatics, Whip-Slinger
Traits Armor Expert, Indomitable Faith
Skills Acrobatics +10, Climb +2, Diplomacy +5, Escape Artist +2, Fly +4, Intimidate +8, Perception +8, Ride +2, Stealth +6, Swim +2
Languages Common, Dwarven, Halfling
SQ Armor Training 1 (Ex), Armored Defense (Ex), Deflective Shield +2 (Ex), Fearless, Warslinger
Combat Gear +1 Armor Spikes, Kilted Agile Breastplate, +1 Buckler, +1 Sling Staff, Halfling, Bullets, Sling (20), Dagger, Greataxe; Other Gear Belt of Giant Strength, +2, Cloak of Resistance, +2, Ioun Stone, Dusty Rose Prism (Cracked), Potion of Cure Light Wounds (2), Potion of Enlarge Person, Potion of Shield of Faith +2
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Bullets, Sling - 0/20
Dagger - 0/1
Potion of Cure Light Wounds - 0/2
Potion of Enlarge Person - 0/1
Potion of Shield of Faith +2 - 0/1
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Ammo Drop Swift or move action to reload a sling with no attack of opportunity.
Armor Expert -1 Armor check penalty.
Armor Training 1 (Ex) Worn armor -1 check penalty, +1 max DEX.
Armored Defense (Ex) At 5th level, an armor master gains DR 1/ - when wearing light armor, DR 2/ - when wearing medium armor, and DR 3/ - when wearing heavy armor. At 19th level, this damage reduction increases to DR 4/ - when wearing light armor, DR 8/ - when wearing me
Damage Reduction (3/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.
Deadly Aim -2/+4 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Deflective Shield +2 (Ex) +2 bonus to touch AC, up to AC bonus provided by shield worn.
Fearless +2 morale bonus vs Fear saves.
Large Target +1 precision dam with sling for every size category foe is larger than you.
Warslinger Reloading a sling is a free action (which still requires 2 hands and provokes AoO).
Whip-Slinger Use sling as a sap and threaten adjacent spaces.
I gotta say that I love seeing some small fighters getting some love.
Here is Spruce Zypherleaf. I would like to point out that I have medium encumbrance from levels 1 to 4 and it doesn't hinder me all that much. I also function pretty well as a guide. At these low levels he mimics the stereotypical 2nd edition ranger fairly well. I also have not take the favored class bonus for hit points nor have I taken toughness. I have a Constitution of 8. I feel confident that he can handle CR appropriate encounters. A few good hits may leave a bruise but his AC is good enough at this point, and his ability to get around can really help. He will make good use of Mobility to get out of trouble, forcing his opponent to him where he can get full attacks while his enemy will be reduces to standard actions. I have plenty of money left over to buy potions or wands to cure some damage.
Level 3
SPRUCE ZYPHERLEAF #3 CR 2
Male Elf Fighter (Mobile Fighter) 3
CG Medium Humanoid (Elf)
Init +5; Senses Low-Light Vision; Perception +9
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 23, touch 14, flat-footed 19. . (+8 armor, +1 shield, +3 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 19 (3d10-3)
Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +2
Defensive Abilities Agility; Immune sleep; Resist Elven Immunities
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 20 ft.
Melee Club +5 (1d6+2/20/x2) and
. . Dagger +5 (1d4+2/19-20/x2) and
. . Masterwork Longsword +3 (1d8+2/19-20/x2) and
. . Masterwork Shortsword +3 (1d6+1/19-20/x2)
Ranged Shortbow +6 (1d6/20/x3) and
. . Sling +6 (1d4+2/20/x2)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 14, Dex 17, Con 8, Int 15, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +3; CMB +5; CMD 19
Feats Cosmopolitan: Perception, Knowledge (Nature), Dodge, Elven Weapon Proficiencies, Quick Draw, Two-weapon Fighting
Traits Bandit (River Kingdoms): Stealth, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +0, Climb +3, Escape Artist +0, Fly +0, Handle Animal +5, Intimidate +4, Knowledge (Geography) +3, Knowledge (Nature) +6, Perception +9, Ride +0, Stealth +7, Survival +5, Swim -1 Modifiers Silent Hunter
Languages Common, Draconic, Elven, Giant, Orc, Sylvan
SQ Armor Training 1 (Ex)
Combat Gear +1 Kilted Agile Breastplate, Arrows (20), Buckler, Bullets, Sling (20), Club, Dagger, Masterwork Longsword, Masterwork Shortsword, Shortbow, Sling; Other Gear Potion of Cure Light Wounds, Potion of Enlarge Person, Potion of Shield of Faith
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Arrows - 0/20
Bullets, Sling - 0/20
Club - 0/1
Dagger - 0/1
Potion of Cure Light Wounds - 0/1
Potion of Enlarge Person - 0/1
Potion of Shield of Faith - 0/1
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Agility +1 (Ex) +1 save vs. Paralyzation, slowing, or entangling
Armor Training 1 (Ex) Worn armor -1 check penalty, +1 max DEX.
Bandit (River Kingdoms): Stealth +1 to Stealth checks, Stealth is always a class skill for you.
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to Sleep effects.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Quick Draw Draw a weapon as a free action. Throw at full rate of attacks.
Silent Hunter Reduce Steath penalty for moving by -5, can make Stealth checks while running (at -20 - includes reduced penalty).
Level 4
SPRUCE ZYPHERLEAF #4 CR 3
Male Elf Fighter (Mobile Fighter) 4
CG Medium Humanoid (Elf)
Init +5; Senses Low-Light Vision; Perception +10
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 24, touch 14, flat-footed 20. . (+8 armor, +2 shield, +3 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 24 (4d10-4)
Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +2
Defensive Abilities Agility; Immune sleep; Resist Elven Immunities
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 20 ft.
Melee +1 Shortsword +4 (1d6+2/19-20/x2) and
. . Club +6 (1d6+2/20/x2) and
. . Dagger +6 (1d4+2/19-20/x2) and
. . Masterwork Longsword +4 (1d8+2/19-20/x2)
Ranged Shortbow +7 (1d6/20/x3) and
. . Sling +7 (1d4+2/20/x2)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 14, Dex 17, Con 8, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +4; CMB +6; CMD 20
Feats Cosmopolitan: Perception, Knowledge (Nature), Dodge, Elven Weapon Proficiencies, Mobility, Quick Draw, Two-weapon Fighting
Traits Bandit (River Kingdoms): Stealth, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +4, Climb +3, Escape Artist +0, Fly +0, Handle Animal +6, Intimidate +5, Knowledge (Geography) +4, Knowledge (Nature) +8, Perception +10, Ride +0, Stealth +8, Survival +5, Swim -1 Modifiers Silent Hunter
Languages Common, Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc, Sylvan
SQ Armor Training 1 (Ex)
Combat Gear +1 Buckler, +1 Kilted Agile Breastplate, +1 Shortsword, Arrows (20), Bullets, Sling (20), Club, Dagger, Masterwork Longsword, Shortbow, Sling; Other Gear Potion of Cure Light Wounds, Potion of Enlarge Person, Potion of Shield of Faith
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Arrows - 0/20
Bullets, Sling - 0/20
Club - 0/1
Dagger - 0/1
Potion of Cure Light Wounds - 0/1
Potion of Enlarge Person - 0/1
Potion of Shield of Faith - 0/1
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Agility +1 (Ex) +1 save vs. Paralyzation, slowing, or entangling
Armor Training 1 (Ex) Worn armor -1 check penalty, +1 max DEX.
Bandit (River Kingdoms): Stealth +1 to Stealth checks, Stealth is always a class skill for you.
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to Sleep effects.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Mobility +4 to AC against some attacks of opportunity.
Quick Draw Draw a weapon as a free action. Throw at full rate of attacks.
Silent Hunter Reduce Steath penalty for moving by -5, can make Stealth checks while running (at -20 - includes reduced penalty).
Level 5
SPRUCE ZYPHERLEAF #5 CR 4
Male Elf Fighter (Mobile Fighter) 5
CG Medium Humanoid (Elf)
Init +5; Senses Low-Light Vision; Perception +11
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 24, touch 14, flat-footed 20. . (+8 armor, +2 shield, +3 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 29 (5d10-5)
Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +2
Defensive Abilities Agility; Immune sleep; Resist Elven Immunities
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 20 ft.
Melee +1 Shortsword +6 (1d6+2/19-20/x2) and
. . Club +8 (1d6+3/20/x2) and
. . Dagger +8 (1d4+3/19-20/x2) and
. . Masterwork Longsword +6 (1d8+3/19-20/x2)
Ranged Shortbow +8 (1d6/20/x3) and
. . Sling +8 (1d4+3/20/x2)
Special Attacks Leaping Attack +1
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 14/16, Dex 17, Con 8, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +5; CMB +8; CMD 22
Feats Cosmopolitan: Perception, Knowledge (Nature), Dodge, Elven Weapon Proficiencies, Mobility, Nimble Moves, Quick Draw, Two-weapon Fighting
Traits Bandit (River Kingdoms): Stealth, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +6, Climb +5, Escape Artist +1, Fly +1, Handle Animal +7, Intimidate +6, Knowledge (Geography) +5, Knowledge (Nature) +8, Perception +11, Ride +1, Stealth +10, Survival +5, Swim +1 Modifiers Silent Hunter
Languages Common, Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc, Sylvan
SQ Armor Training 1 (Ex)
Combat Gear +1 Buckler, +1 Kilted Agile Breastplate, +1 Shortsword, Arrows (20), Bullets, Sling (20), Club, Dagger, Masterwork Longsword, Shortbow, Sling; Other Gear Belt of Giant Strength, +2, Potion of Cure Light Wounds, Potion of Enlarge Person, Potion of Shield of Faith
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Arrows - 0/20
Bullets, Sling - 0/20
Club - 0/1
Dagger - 0/1
Potion of Cure Light Wounds - 0/1
Potion of Enlarge Person - 0/1
Potion of Shield of Faith - 0/1
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Agility +1 (Ex) +1 save vs. Paralyzation, slowing, or entangling
Armor Training 1 (Ex) Worn armor -1 check penalty, +1 max DEX.
Bandit (River Kingdoms): Stealth +1 to Stealth checks, Stealth is always a class skill for you.
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to Sleep effects.
Leaping Attack +1 (Ex) +1 to hit and damage if you move at least 5' before attacking.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Mobility +4 to AC against some attacks of opportunity.
Nimble Moves Move through 5' of difficult terrain/round as if it was normal terrain.
Quick Draw Draw a weapon as a free action. Throw at full rate of attacks.
Silent Hunter Reduce Steath penalty for moving by -5, can make Stealth checks while running (at -20 - includes reduced penalty).
Level 6
SPRUCE ZYPHERLEAF #6 CR 5
Male Elf Fighter (Mobile Fighter) 6
CG Medium Humanoid (Elf)
Init +5; Senses Low-Light Vision; Perception +12
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 24, touch 14, flat-footed 20. . (+8 armor, +2 shield, +3 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 34 (6d10-6)
Fort +5, Ref +6, Will +4
Defensive Abilities Agility; Immune sleep; Resist Elven Immunities
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 20 ft.
Melee +1 Longsword +7/+2 (1d8+4/19-20/x2) and
. . +1 Shortsword +7/+2 (1d6+2/19-20/x2) and
. . Club +9/+4 (1d6+3/20/x2) and
. . Dagger +9/+4 (1d4+3/19-20/x2)
Ranged Shortbow +9/+4 (1d6/20/x3) and
. . Sling +9/+4 (1d4+3/20/x2)
Special Attacks Leaping Attack +1
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 14/16, Dex 17, Con 8, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +6; CMB +9; CMD 23
Feats Cosmopolitan: Perception, Knowledge (Nature), Dodge, Elven Weapon Proficiencies, Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Mobility, Nimble Moves, Quick Draw, Two-weapon Fighting
Traits Bandit (River Kingdoms): Stealth, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +12, Climb +5, Escape Artist +1, Fly +1, Handle Animal +8, Intimidate +7, Knowledge (Geography) +6, Knowledge (Nature) +8, Perception +12, Ride +1, Stealth +11, Survival +5, Swim +1 Modifiers Silent Hunter
Languages Common, Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc, Sylvan
SQ Armor Training 1 (Ex)
Combat Gear +1 Buckler, +1 Kilted Agile Breastplate, +1 Longsword, +1 Shortsword, Arrows (20), Bullets, Sling (20), Club, Dagger, Shortbow, Sling; Other Gear Belt of Giant Strength, +2, Boots of Elvenkind, Cloak of Resistance, +1, Potion of Cure Light Wounds, Potion of Enlarge Person, Potion of Shield of Faith
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Arrows - 0/20
Bullets, Sling - 0/20
Club - 0/1
Dagger - 0/1
Potion of Cure Light Wounds - 0/1
Potion of Enlarge Person - 0/1
Potion of Shield of Faith - 0/1
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Agility +2 (Ex) +2 save vs. Paralyzation, slowing, or entangling
Armor Training 1 (Ex) Worn armor -1 check penalty, +1 max DEX.
Bandit (River Kingdoms): Stealth +1 to Stealth checks, Stealth is always a class skill for you.
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to Sleep effects.
Leaping Attack +1 (Ex) +1 to hit and damage if you move at least 5' before attacking.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Mobility +4 to AC against some attacks of opportunity.
Nimble Moves Move through 5' of difficult terrain/round as if it was normal terrain.
Quick Draw Draw a weapon as a free action. Throw at full rate of attacks.
Silent Hunter Reduce Steath penalty for moving by -5, can make Stealth checks while running (at -20 - includes reduced penalty).
Mounted fighters can work if you are able to use Leadership or if you are able to buy/rear a mount of your own. The problem with that is that there are very few prices to help guide the GM. I would love to see some guidelines on how much an advanced horse should cost.