Slippery Mind vs Hard to Fool (UC)

[another_mage]

The rogue in my campaign just reached level 10. The rogue's player had a question for me about two Advanced Talents:

Slippery Mind (Ex) {Core Rulebook}

Slippery Mind (Ex) wrote:

Benefit: This ability represents the rogue's ability to wriggle free from magical effects that would otherwise control or compel her. If a rogue with slippery mind is affected by an enchantment spell or effect and fails her saving throw, she can attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC. She gets only this one extra chance to succeed on her saving throw.

Hard to Fool (Ex) {Ultimate Combat}

Hard to Fool (Ex) wrote:

Benefit: A rogue with this talent is hard to fool with mind-affecting effects. At the start of her turn, if she is still subject to any mind-affecting spells or effects, she can make a Will saving throw with a standard DC for the effect’s level, and if she succeeds at the check, she is no longer subject Classes to the mind-affecting effect. She can make this saving throw even against mind-affecting effects that normally don’t allow a saving throw. In those cases, generate the saving throw as if the spell or effect did allow a saving throw.

Note that Hard to Fool should not be confused with an identically named Advanced Talent from the APG:

Hard to Fool (Ex) {Advanced Player's Guide}

My player said: It seems that Hard to Fool gives me one roll per round until I shake it off, whereas Slippery Mind gives me just one extra roll period ... so I want to know:

1. Why would anybody choose Slippery Mind?
2. Has Hard to Fool been given any errata for being "overpowered"?

I told him that the wording for Slippery Mind covered "Enchantment" while Hard to Fool covered "mind-affecting" which were two different tags; although I couldn't come up with a non mind-affecting enchantment spell/effect on the spot (and haven't had time to research it yet today).

I also told him that I didn't think Hard to Fool was overpowered, but would check for errata and forum opinions. To me, it seems the game effect is a long-acting defense against a specific category of attacks, which does not affect hundreds of other ways of killing the hell out of the rogue. Moreover, the opportunity cost of not taking one of the more offense-oriented advanced talents means that my baddies will last longer in the fight anyway.

Anybody have any examples of where Slippery Mind might still be useful?

[stringburka]

Theoretically it would be useful against not mind-affecting enchantment spells. That's VERY niche though.

[SteelDraco]

Has this ever been resolved, to anyone's knowledge?

It's part of the definition of enchantments that they're all mind-affecting, making Slippery Mind super-pointless, by my reading.

I'm working on a rogue revision and I'm considering just replacing the current Slippery Mind talent with the UC Hard to Fool talent. It seems the most sensible, since Hard to Fool is strictly better since there can't be non-mind-affecting enchantments.

[Noh Masuku]

That is confusing! So many are both mind effecting AND enchantment in the description....and here is an interesting piece, Power Words are "enchantment(compulsion)[mind effecting]"....wriggle out of that PW stun anyone? Also, why state "standard DC"...does this mean without any of the bonus that the caster etc. might have added in with ability and such? From now on I'm calling these two "Hard to Fool" and "Advanced Hard to Fool". I'm almost tempted just to drop it and stick with slippery mind, otherwise a Rogue with this is pretty much immune to a lot of mind effecting spells and such out there...not that I would complain playing a rogue but it always comes back to bite, or sneak in this case, you!

I'm betting we aren't getting a FAQ clarification because the execution of the original intention is a bit messed up...I would love to know the thinking behind the creation of this advanced talent then I could parse it out on my own.

[wraithstrike]

Hard to Fool is a lot better. I think this one slipped through the cracks or they realized the other one was not that good. I would let the 2nd one stay. It seems to be a good major talent to have.

[Kyujaq]

I gave this a lot of thought and here are my conclusion :

The difference between slippery mind and hard to fool are in the duration of the mind affecting.

AKA : duration instantaneous or not ?

Dominated for X days ? Hard to fool is your friend because you are under an effect that lasts X amount of time.

But you got hit by feeblemind or insanity ? That's too bad, because duration is intantenous. People want to argue that Even though the spell is instantenous, the effect lasts SO hard to fool should work. I don't agree because 1- the easy answer, it's instantenous, and by definition instantenous has come and gone, so there's no magic left, if you detect magic on the dude, there's no magic left to fight, the spell turned to brain to mush and you're stuck with it, it's not affecting your brain to act differently. 2- to those who would argue against it, you know what's also an effect of an instantenous mind affecting spell ? Phantasmal killer. So I guess if you get killed by phantasmal killer, since fear is mind affecting (that's what kills you) you get a new save every round to come back to life ? 3- What is I think the biggest pointer : Instantenous "effect" still work on in anti-magic zone. So how can you argue that there's still an effect to suppress with hard to fool, but not an effect to suppress by anti-magic ?

Now, Slippery mind, Slippery mind, you fail a will save, you get ONE extra save, and it doesnt specify, just like the Hard to fool : IF you are still under an effect.
So that's the difference....

You get dominated : Slippery mind = one extra save only, hard to fool : one save EACH round
You get instant feebleinsanity etc... : Slippery mind : one extra save, hard to fool : sorry

So they are both good because in one situation hard to fool gives you more chances to wriggle free, but in the other situation slippery mind applies but not hard to fool.

It all makes a lot of sense although the wording are subtle.

I think it's one of those cases where they use the word "effect" with two meanings and that's what confuses people.

Effect 1 = the effect of being UNDER an ongoing spell
Effect 2 = the effect of having been affected by a spell that left scars when it was casted but the spell is long gone by now.

That's my take, and usually I'm pretty humble but on this one I'm 99% of myself.

Can't believe there would be two talents that does the exact same thing but one is 100% better than the other.

Cheers.

[JabTheHot]

To support Kyujaq in some way :

In the Magic section, under Duration :

"Instantaneous

The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting.

[...]

Subjects, Effects, and Areas

If the spell affects creatures directly, the result travels with the subjects for the spell's duration. If the spell creates an effect, the effect lasts for the duration. The effect might move or remain still. Such an effect can be destroyed prior to when its duration ends. If the spell affects an area, then the spell stays with that area for its duration.

Creatures become subject to the spell when they enter the area and are no longer subject to it when they leave."

Meaning : For an Effect to be in place, a Duration is needed. An instantaneous duration create a Consequence, not an effect.

The result is :
Slippery Mind : Gives 1 extra save in every enchantement spell or effect situation, including from instantaneous spells and effects.
Hard to Fool (Hard Minded) : Gives an extra save every round against any mind affecting spell or effect with a duration.

But in the specific case of some spells, the spell wording is important.

Insanity for example :
Its instantaneous, so with only that fact you could suppose its not subject to Hard to Fool and only to Slippery Mind.
But, the spell states : "The affected creature suffers from a continuous confusion effect, as the spell."
So there is an effect and it applies as a spell, not the Insanity per say since its over, but its consequence is a continuous Confusion, so Hard to Fool provides a save against that effect every round until it is over.