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I'm making a fighter hoping to take advantage of the fun concealment feats with Haunted Gnome Shroud.
Gnome Fighter - Level 9
20 Pt Buy
Str 12 (5pt -2)
Dex 17 (10pt +1 lv4)
Con 14 (1pt +2, +1 lv8)
Int 13 (3pt)
Wis 10
Cha 13 (1pt, +2)
Books Allowed: Core, APG, UC, UM, and the beasty books.
Weapon: Gnome Hooked Hammer
Relevant Skills: Bluff 9+, Kn: Arcana 6+
Feats
1: Two-Weapon Fighting?, Haunted Gnome
2: Combat Expertise
3: Haunted Gnome Assault
4: Blind-Fight
5: Moonlight Stalker
6: Haunted Gnome Shroud
7: Improved Feint (>_<)
8: Moonlight Stalker Feint
9: Moonlight Stalker Master
And... I'm not sure where to go from here. Power Attack? Weapon Focus? Improved Critical? (Only way to get the hammer part of the weapon keen)
Should I focus on an archetype? What kind of magic gear should I look out for? I'm not entirely sure that TWF is a good way to go, although I do like the GHH. Would you do anything differently? Pick a different weapon? Improved Feint is something of a blank feat with TWF and it's makes it very feat-dense before I can get ITWF or wait until 10th level.
Thanks for your input!
Perhaps Greater Feint then perhaps continue the TWF tree. I agree with Black though Agile weapon enchantment would be good for both sides of your Hook Hammer. As for a a possible archetype how about the Two Weapon Fighter.
Though offhand to get Agile weapon enchantment you have to have weapon finesse feat with the hook hammer first.
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What has the world come to, Goblins giving a Gnome build advice!
Just make sure you focus on one weapon. we had a gnome fighter in our party once, and he was all over the place. He played a gnome to a tee, but as a fighter he was always lagging in the damage department because a) he was two weapon fighting with weapons he needed exotic weapon proficiences.
b) he blew most of his feats on things he didn't need like exotic weapon proficiences for more than one weapon.
This is all my own opinion though so feel free to ignore it.
Best PC in the party though RP wise.
Oh hey, that's an interesting build. I'd written off those feats as totally useless. (for the most part they probably are...) But I'm sure we can help you out. Do you plan on playing this character or is it just a thought exercise?
You seem a little iffy about feint. In my opinion, skip it. Maybe somebody can prove me wrong, but the value of feinting at all as a fighter is kind of questionable. Especially one with concealment already. Looking at the first few CR 9 creatures I can find in my bestiary, many of them dont even have a dex bonus to deny. Unless you're going up against an air elemental, it doesn't seem like much of a boost. Also, You can make a stealth check if you have concealment, which should already leave them flatfooted. Although you can only (though being able to do it as a swift action is pretty neat.) This'd save you a whopping four feats, and the only one that's giving you a reasonable boost in my opinion is Moonlight Stalker Master.
Thanks to concealment, your fighter shouldn't have too much issue with his AC (further helped by high dex and small size). He has another line of defense in that department. Seeing this is the case you probably want to sure up his offense and his saves. I'd say Power Attack, Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialisation are a must on any fighter (unless you're two weapon fighting, but with a double weapon the feat is still a great investment 'cause you can switch between TWF and power attack instantly). If you skip TWF, you can take power attack, weapon focus and weapon spec in place of TWF, expertise and improved feint. A TWFer would want to skip power attack for now and grab it later (but still wants wep spec.) If you forgo the moonlight stalker feint/master feats you could grab iron will and combat reflexes after that to shore up your will saves and combat presence.
You'll want to move some ability scores around. I'd go for 13 or 14 str at the get-go. I'd start with a point buy of say, 13, 16, 13, 10, 12 after racial adjustments, boosting str then con). Now you're ready to power attack! At 9th level and a two-handed weapon (like your hammer) thats +9 damage on every hit. That's too good to pass up. Seriously.
Second, you're gonna want flat bonuses to hit and damage. With your str, power attack, weapon focus, weapon specialization, moonlight stalker and your weapon training class feature, you're looking at +13 to hit and a +18 to damage on your first attack. It's a start. The magic items below will improve this to +17 to hit and +22 to damage, which is real nice.
The power of TWF comes mainly from stacking bonus damage, like weapon training, specialisation and moonlight stalker. It could work here. Stick with your hooked hammer in this case because it'll get the full benefit from the above feats/class features. If you go this way, you're looking at +14 to hit and +12 to damage on one or two more attacks. If you can land em all, it'll deal a little more damage, but the power attack route will always be more reliable.
Here's a quick and dirty equipment list:
+2 hooked hammer (no abilities, you need that hit chance)
gloves of dueling
+3 cloak of resistance
+2 breastplate
Which according to the starting gold for 9th level HERE you have 9,330gp left to spend. I'd reccomend grabbing some potions of blur for more concealment, or maybe a magic item that can cast it! :)
Oh and uh, skip archetypes, in this guy's humble opinion. They won't give you anything better than armor and weapon training and you don't want to be any slower.
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Master Tinker alternate racial trait will allow you to be proficient with any weapon you crafted yourself. This racial trait replaces the defensive training and hatred racial traits. Those traits replaced are bonuses that hardly ever come up.
A gnome can make a decent Lore Warden fighter, or mounted combatant.
What's so good about master tinker? The fighter's already proficient with almost everything, and the very premise assumes you're stopping to make a weapon you wouldn't be bothering with otherwise. Exotic weapons just... arent that swish... and she already has one at that.
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What's so good about master tinker? The fighter's already proficient with almost everything, and the very premise assumes you're stopping to make a weapon you wouldn't be bothering with otherwise. Exotic weapons just... arent that swish... and she already has one at that.
Gnomes create, it's in their flavor. Being proficient with everything in your chosen weapon group is useful. The lost abilities are almost never used. You really must not know of the multiple powerful builds focusing on different exotic weapons.
Perhaps you know more than I know, but what it is, you have yet revealed.
What's so good about master tinker? The fighter's already proficient with almost everything, and the very premise assumes you're stopping to make a weapon you wouldn't be bothering with otherwise. Exotic weapons just... arent that swish... and she already has one at that.Gnomes create, it's in their flavor. Being proficient with everything in your chosen weapon group is useful. The lost abilities are almost never used. You really must not know of the multiple powerful builds focusing on different exotic weapons.
Perhaps you know more than I know, but what it is, you have yet revealed.
The thing is here that she already has an exotic weapon. Is there a particular one that would be indispensible to this particular build? I think it's just a matter of taste, I guess. I'm not a fan. I'd take a potential +4 to AC any day.
Thanks for the responses!
I think you (Twigs) are right on the money about the Feint abilities. Just not useful. The Blind-Fight and Moonlight Stalker feats are: +2 to hit and to damage in just as many feats as weapon focus and specialization.
And yes, I will be playing this character very soon. I'm in two games at once and starting a third in a few weeks. One of the games is becoming quite the meat grinder; my character is the only one of the original party still around. This gnome will likely end up being my replacement or joining the other new game at a lower level, whichever comes first.
So here's the main feat-puddle (it's not really a pool.) Combat bonuses listed and stat [requirements] listed.
1: TWF, Haunted Gnome (-2/+0, two hit full attack) [Cha 13, KnArc 1]
2: Combat Expertise [Int 13]
3: Haunted Gnome Assault
4: Blind Fight
5: Moonlight Stalker (+2/+2 with concealment)(Weapon Training, double weapons +1!) [Bluff 3]
6: Haunted Gnome Assault (20% concealment Lv# rounds)
7: ITWF (-2/+0, -7/+0 full attack)
8: Weapon Focus: Hooked Hammer (+1/+0)
9: Weapon Spec: Hooked Hammer (+0/+2)(Weapon Training 2!)
Future Levels:
10: Greater Weapon Focus (+1/+0)
11: Greater Two Weapon Fighting
12: Greater Weapon Spec (+0/+2)
Now this is far more satisfying than working for some silly feint bonus.
In terms of making my own exotic weapons, I wouldn't be able to get any magical bonuses placed on them, yes/no? I'd have to make them in order to be proficient. Besides which, I can't see much use in anything that would be better than the hook hammer. Smashy smashy on one side and pokey pokey on the other.
Which would be better in terms of damage output with a double weapon, the additional +2 bonus or a +1 flaming hammer and a +1 frost pick? 16k is a lot of money to throw down and I wanna make it count.
I think I can get Sash of the War Champion or what it's called that bumps up my armor training and bravery by a +1. It's really cheap if I recall.
I'm okay taking the penalty to Str so long as it's above +0, but it doesn't look like I'll get much out of power attack. It's not nothing, but it's hard to move the stats. I need a high dex and at least a 13 in Int and Cha and Wis shouldn't go too low. You might be right about Iron Will too.
Traits from APG: There's one that gives you a 0lvl spell per day, so I'm taking that for an additional use of Haunted Fey Aspect. Reactionary is another good one. Any different ideas?
Thank you for your help! ^_^ This is exciting!
Swift Edit: Is Hammer the Gap any good? It looks neat.
We did the math- hammer the gap is crap.
Big game hunter after level 9 is freakin awesome. Nearly everything in the beastiary past cr8 is large or bigger.
For traits, I absolutely LOVE Courageous on fighters. That plus a sash of the war champion makes you pretty much unshakable. It's a lot more situational than reactionary though so I'd take it over the first one if you're interested.
Good luck! I sincerely hope you survive! :P
Master Tinker actually makes the Gnome fighter viable in my eyes.
Make up for your lower strength with versatility- wield a Falcata when you want to sword and board, wield a Fauchard when your going polearm, keep nets handy to attack touch AC and entangle, wield an Elven Curved blade when you do want to go two-handed, enjoy Whip proficiency and sport a Halfling Sling Staff for your ranged needs (arguably better if you expect your strength score to go up and down)...
If you can manage a strength of 16+ going into 18+ with stat boosters, a Ripsaw Glaive is another ideal weapon for pure damage. Sure you have lower strength, but as long as the blade is spinning thats +2 damage for you.
I actually made a PbP Gnome fighter based off these thoughts- this alias if you want a peek. I'm second guessing Armor Master as I think losing Weapon Training might be too crippling, but its early enough that I think the GM might let me change archetype.
Personally, I love several of the exotic weapons and if the tradeoff for essentially having any of them that I want is to be Small sized and have a strength penalty, so be it.
I don't understand the advantage of Haunted Gnome. Can someone explain, please? I appears weak to me...
EDIT: So Shroud is the big thing in this feat chain, right? But you missed it on your updated list.
I don't understand the advantage of Haunted Gnome. Can someone explain, please? I appears weak to me...
EDIT: So Shroud is the big thing in this feat chain, right? But you missed it on your updated list.
I can see the use in it though in this case I do believe it is used in combination with the Moonlight Stalker feats.
Same. Its an extremely high feat investment for very little effect.
I may differ with that opinion, granted it is abit feat hungry but 20% concealment then adding another 10% from Moonlight Stalker Master. To mee that is pretty nice also in that same train of though it would go nicely with a cloak of displacement.
@Lokiron: True, I put Assault twice. My bad.
The point is concealment plus Moonlight Stalker. Six feats, +2/+2 and 20% miss chance four or five times per day. Not optimal but plenty fun for the dining room table.
@AK: Yup! Versatility will hopefully come with imagination in game.
@Bastarger: I will definitely look up your gnome fighter. I assume your variety of weapons were masterwork at best. In the game I'm probably playing this build if you're making a magical armament you start from scratch. Ergo I won't be able to make any magical armaments. I'd rather have one magic double weapon than variety with this particular character. Still, I really like the idea of a gnome armed to the teeth, pulling lucerne hammers from hammerspace and going to town against unsuspecting baddies. Were I to apply the armament bonus without magic weapons, power attack should be in lieu of TWF, yes?
@Twigs: Courageous isn't a bad idea. My dex is fairly high so I'll be somewhere up there in the initiative line. If I took the gnome race trait that lets you reroll 1's, that also comes with a save-vs-fear bonus. At level 9 that would give me a +7 bonus vs fear on top of my will save. Nifty! It would be situational, but the last dungeon did feature a fair bit of fear effects with undead.
Thanks on the well wishes.
@STR Ranger: Thanks for that, not gonna bother with HTG. Big Game Hunter is not likely to be accepted by my DM as it's not in the main books, but perhaps if I keep the racial hatred race traits he'll let me have it. It's weapon focus and specialization in one!
No worries.
The problem with hammer the gap is you have to make CONSECUTIVE hits for it to work. A single miss and.you start again
Eg.
1 hit=…0 bonus
2 hit = +1
3 hit= +2
4 hit= +3
5 hit= +4
6 hit= +5
7 hit= +6
8 hit= +7
Looks nice, but calculate the odds of hitting with all 8 attacks. You need to make 5 hits in a row just to equal wpn spl. And wpn spl doesn't care if you miss...
I have it for my 20th level feat on my 2 weapon warrior but only because I have Orc arcane bloodline/swift sla/optimistic gambler adding +10 to hit (with level appropritate gear total mod is like +46 with power attack on)
Actually Gnomes get +2 cha so your guy could look into the orc bloodline via eldritch heritage (just say your cursed by an Orc sorcerer).
It grants touch of rage (needs swift sla as a minimum, better with optimistic gambler trait)
+6 inherent to str
Ability to increase your size for minutes per level.
Master Tinker actually makes the Gnome fighter viable in my eyes.
Make up for your lower strength with versatility- wield a Falcata when you want to sword and board, wield a Fauchard when your going polearm, keep nets handy to attack touch AC and entangle, wield an Elven Curved blade when you do want to go two-handed, enjoy Whip proficiency and sport a Halfling Sling Staff for your ranged needs (arguably better if you expect your strength score to go up and down)...
If you can manage a strength of 16+ going into 18+ with stat boosters, a Ripsaw Glaive is another ideal weapon for pure damage. Sure you have lower strength, but as long as the blade is spinning thats +2 damage for you.
I actually made a PbP Gnome fighter based off these thoughts- this alias if you want a peek. I'm second guessing Armor Master as I think losing Weapon Training might be too crippling, but its early enough that I think the GM might let me change archetype.
Personally, I love several of the exotic weapons and if the tradeoff for essentially having any of them that I want is to be Small sized and have a strength penalty, so be it.
Actually mate, going with Mobile fighter could be sweet for you.
As long as you 5ft step every round or more(just circle the guy) you'll get weapon training to any of your potent arsenal.Still gets armor training 2 so you can still tumble in fullplate.
Plus your speed sux so charging around is awesome (even better here since this archetype gets a lite version of pounce).
Maybe craft yourself a pair of wakazashi and duel wield with massive crit range.
Or craft a Katana and go Katana/quickdraw light shield to make yourself a twf, high crittin, pouncing, shield bashing tank ;)
Chains:
Twf
Itwf
Bashing Finish
Imp shieldbash
Shieldslam
Shieldmaster
I may differ with that opinion, granted it is abit feat hungry but 20% concealment then adding another 10% from Moonlight Stalker Master. To mee that is pretty nice also in that same train of though it would go nicely with a cloak of displacement.
Aha! I knew there was an item that granted concealment, but I couldn't find it for the life of me. Thanks! :P
Stealing it. Duncan has massive saves and can use a judgement for resistance.
Midnight stalker is in. When he gets a cloak. Permanent +2 attack and damage. Huzzah.
I had considered mobile fighter for those very reasons, but there's no way i'm going down the TWF route here.
Well actually I see two awesome builds off this.
Switch to Dwarf, take glory of old trait and steel soul feat at 1st level. You now have +5 vs spells (same as +5cloak of resist)
Now take Lore warden Archetype. COMBAT EXPERTISE FOR FREE at level 2.
Massive bonuses to maneuvers, weapon training, and know thy enemy (+2 to hit with a knowledge check)
Take blind fight and then moonlight stalker and stop there. Soon as you can afford a cloak of displacement. BAM. Highest to hit and damage rockin AND stealth.
+4 weapon training
+2 know thy enemy
+2 duelist gloves
+2 moonlight stalker
+2 gtr weapon focus(gtr wpn spl)
+8 more for maneuvers
That's a permanent +10 to hit and +12 damage with 0 buffing. +18 on cmb and cmd (strength surge barbs will cry)
Saves are still good via dwarf/trait/steel soul
Cloak gives miss chance....
Damn I am good.
Question for you folks.
The game in question is tomorrow. I'm not exactly expecting to have my original fighter dude die, but it's possible. The BBEG should be tomorrow.
The party has no Rogue or trapspotter. (Of course, if my current character dies it will have no tank... anyway). Would I be able to stealth with the concealment provided by Haunted Gnome Shroud? Would I be able to reconceal in the middle of melee to get those lovely sneak attacks in? If yes...
1: Haunted Gnome
2: Trick: Fast Stealth
3: Haunted Gnome Assault
4: Trick: (Gives Weapon Finesse)
5: Two-Weapon Fighting
6: Trick: Combat trick (Improved TWF?)
7: Haunted Gnome Shroud, Sneak attack 4d6
8: Trick: ???
9: ???
Armed with a nice pair of Shortswords.
I've never played a rogue before, and I'm not very sure about the rules around stealth and concealment and if it would even work. I would flavour it as though I'm either in a Tazmanian Devil style tornado or a translucent spectral fae creature that vibrates in space while laughing at a high-pitched keen.
Of course if it won't work I'll probably keep with the fighter.
It may later in the progression I would suggest Wind stance and Lightning stance, as long as your moving you have concealment so you could possibly save some of your haunted gnome uses.
Ah, too true. I'm so used to playing full-bab characters.
Weapon Focus is a good one. Swapped.
Big Game Hunter does not exist in the game. Only Core, APG, UC, UM.
Haunted Gnome uses could also be made up for with the 0-level spell rogue ability. Pick Haunted Gnome and get three additional uses. I would already take the trait that gives a 0 level spell. Wind stance and lightning stance require another feat and only give concealment against ranged attacks and for a very short duration. I don't think they'd be applicable to a stealth check, but then I still don't know if I can make one. By inference of what you're saying I can?