Goblin Squad Member
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I have been imagining of how the magic system will look in Pathfinder Online once it has been implemented. I know that trying to translate a table top rule system akin to the pathfinder magic system to a computer game form can be a great challenge indeed. It will have to be modified in some form or fashion as there are a few mechanics that that won’t translate well and some that won’t transition at all.
I don’t intend to get into which specific spells could/would/should make it. Instead I wanted to look at some ways that for just the act of casting spells could be handled and their merits and flaws.
Here are some ways I could see it being done.
Spell Points: This system would grant each caster a pool of points based on their character level and possibly Feats or Skills that would be added to the current list of Metamagic Feats or Skill list, respectively. Spells would be gained and chosen/prepared as normal per the given class. When a spell is cast a number of points are deducted from the character’s Spell Point Pool. This could be done on a 1 point per spell basis or could be handled such that the points required depend on the level of the spell being cast. Thus you could have 1 point for a first level spell, 2 points for a second level, etc.
The Spell Point Pool could be set to refresh in a given time frame or under specific conditions. We know that currently it takes 3 real hours to complete a day/night cycle in PFO. The refresh could be based on some derivative of that (every 1, 2 or 3 hours, which is 8, 16 or 24 hours in game respectively). It could also be handled by using a Rest Button, something seen in other single player “D&D” based games. It would probably make sense to assign a “reuse” timer to the Rest Button.
Traditional: This system would adhere fairly closely to the standard system listed in the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game book. Players would gain spells as per their class and level. Players choose and prepare them as per normal and cast them normally.
When it comes to regaining spells that have been cast, the most critical decision seems to be how long one must wait. Going by normal rules the player would be able to regain those used spell slots once every 3 real hours (24 game time hours). This time could be adjusted of course, or maintained and other considerations such as scrolls, wands and potions could be made use of to supplement generated the needed spell effects. Last there is again the aforementioned Rest Button.
Time Based: This system is akin to the Traditional mentioned above with respect to gaining, choosing spell. It would allow the caster to choose a current “rotation” of spells every 3 hours (1 game day). The caster would then be allowed to cast those selected spells a number of times during the next 3 hours limited by a cooldown between castings of that specific spell. Considering that the Sorcerer’s mechanics are somewhat close to this already, in this system the Sorcerer would be granted a shorter cooldown period than the Wizard.
These are just some ideas I had. I’d be interested to hear thoughts on them, modifications of and other completely different Ideas for how magic could be handled as far as casting.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The refresh time for spells would have to be either very short or under the player's control. Very few people are going to play spell-caster heavy characters if they can only play the game (effectively) for 30 minutes before running out of spells and then have to wait hours to get them back.
In the table top its "oh, I'm out of spells, we need to rest for the night guys," 8 actual seconds later, "Ok, I'm good to go!"
In PFO it would be "oh, I'm out of spells, you guys have fun, I will be back online in 2 hours when my spells are back."
Something with a rest button (with the "reuse" timer that I thought was a good idea) may work. Possibly their could just be much longer cooldowns on higher level spells (30 sec for 3rd level spells, 10 minutes for 9th level spells, etc..) Otherwise they could always go with the traditional mana bar...
If the purpose of limited spells is to keep people from spamming their most powerful magic (which of course it is), then as an addition to forcing them to rest they could always implement spell component cost, just like in the table top. Not 100% sure how to balance it, but it could be used to make player's think twice before casting that 9th level spell at a group of gnolls...
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Goblin Squad Member
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... it takes 3 real hours to complete a day/night cycle in PFO.
Actually, it will take about 6, 3 each for night and day, 4 hours in-game to 1 hour real-time.
As for the actual topic, I would love to see a system where a Wizard prepared spells and then had a chance to forget them when they were cast, based on his skill. I think it would be great if the chance to forget was rolled at the time the spell was cast, with the spell fizzling if it's been forgotten.
The Wizard should be able to take free time now and then to re-prepare their spells.
I'm imagining a Wizard who knows he's most likely to get 2-3 casts of Fireball before forgetting that spell, but might get as many as 6. Very prudent players might choose to quit even trying to cast Fireball after their 2nd casting. Other players might choose to keep casting until it fizzles.
In my ideal world, each spell cast would cost a certain amount of Mental Fatigue.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I do like the idea of the incorporation of spell reagents. Of course, I know part of that is the old Ultima Online gamer in me. Still, it was a nice touch aesthetically that could also be used for game balance.
I feel I need to give a more specific example for the Time Based approach. Let's say you have a Level 3 Wizard that has the spells Magic Missile (MM), Acid Arrow(AA), Disguise Self(DS) and Fog Cloud(FC). He selects all of those spells to be, for lack of a better term, "active" during this 3 hour block. Our wizard finds himself in conflict and casts (MM). (MM) is now on a cooldown timer that reads 2 minutes 30 seconds. He can still cast any of the other three spells he has active, but has to wait to cast (MM) again.
The difference for a Sorcerer would be that their cooldown would start at 1 minute 30 seconds, per the reasons I mentioned in the initial post.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... it takes 3 real hours to complete a day/night cycle in PFO.Actually, it will take about 6, 3 each for night and day, 4 hours in-game to 1 hour real-time.
Ahh, I read the blog as a day/night cycle would be three hours. So a day cycle (sun rise to sun set) is 3 hours and the same for night (sun set to sun rise)? If so I will make adjustment to my initial post.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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... it takes 3 real hours to complete a day/night cycle in PFO.Actually, it will take about 6, 3 each for night and day, 4 hours in-game to 1 hour real-time.
As for the actual topic, I would love to see a system where a Wizard prepared spells and then had a chance to forget them when they were cast, based on his skill. I think it would be great if the chance to forget was rolled at the time the spell was cast, with the spell fizzling if it's been forgotten.
The Wizard should be able to take free time now and then to re-prepare their spells.
I'm imagining a Wizard who knows he's most likely to get 2-3 casts of Fireball before forgetting that spell, but might get as many as 6. Very prudent players might choose to quit even trying to cast Fireball after their 2nd casting. Other players might choose to keep casting until it fizzles.
In my ideal world, each spell cast would cost a certain amount of Mental Fatigue.
If you're saying that when a spell is memorized, it has a finite number of casts, then stopping after 2 or 3 would make sense.
If there's an independent, constant, chance that the spell is lost each time it is cast, then the only reason to hold off when it's the best spell to use would be to not risk losing it before it is needed later.
Either way, you are encouraging resting at every feasible point, following the NWN model (I'm in a hurry, so I'm only going to rest every time I cast a high-level spell, instead of every time I cast any spell).
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you're saying that when a spell is memorized, it has a finite number of casts, then stopping after 2 or 3 would make sense.
I'm suggesting that there be a fixed, fairly narrow range of times it will likely be cast without forgetting, eventually reaching the point where you never forget it. For the sake of argument, let's say the range is between 1 and 2 times the Skill Rank.
... the only reason to hold off when it's the best spell to use would be to not risk losing it before it is needed later.
I also imagined that "very prudent" casters might choose to hold off casting it so that they don't risk losing out on that particular Global Cooldown (assuming there will be such a thing). As I said, I would determine whether the spell is forgotten at the beginning of the cast procedure, so you might try to cast it but have it fizzle because you've forgotten it.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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If you're saying that when a spell is memorized, it has a finite number of casts, then stopping after 2 or 3 would make sense.I'm suggesting that there be a fixed, fairly narrow range of times it will likely be cast without forgetting, eventually reaching the point where you never forget it. For the sake of argument, let's say the range is between 1 and 2 times the Skill Rank.
... the only reason to hold off when it's the best spell to use would be to not risk losing it before it is needed later.I also imagined that "very prudent" casters might choose to hold off casting it so that they don't risk losing out on that particular Global Cooldown (assuming there will be such a thing). As I said, I would determine whether the spell is forgotten at the beginning of the cast procedure, so you might try to cast it but have it fizzle because you've forgotten it.
If there's a X% chance of remembering the spell when starting to cast it, it doesn't matter if you've cast it once or fifty times, there's a X% chance it's available, provided you haven't already fizzled. There's no way to have a flat chance of failing to remember that regress into a 90% chance that you will get it off six times but less than a 10% chance that you will have 13.
What you could do is have the number of casts determined initially, or tracked, such that you are more likely to forget each time you cast, not just more likely to have forgotten.
What I would suggest in this line of thought is to have a set amount of 'capacity' for spells, with each spell having one or more qualities of 'complexity'. The more complex the spell, compared to your relevant ability, the longer it takes to ready that spell, the more capacity it requires, and the more likely you are to misremember it when casting, ruining it from memory and requiring more meditation/study/prayer to reestablish it.
That even allows for a different system of limiting casting: You can -attempt- to cast as much and as fast as you want, but each casting increases fatigue, and the more fatigued you are at the moment, the more likely you are to miscast.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I cannot see spells working as they do in PnP games, be it with spells known and slots per day or what have you. The "per day" mechanic doesn't work in an MMO. In PnP, it takes 6 seconds to wait a night. No one wants to get in 4-5 fights, then have to log off for 3 hours as their spells recharge. I think it is wise to accept that and move towards a different modality of spells.
I would rather like to see a system similar to "The Old Republic"s energy system. For casters, lets call it "Focus". The more focus you have, the faster it regenerates. You can cast a whole bunch of spells really really quickly....but then your focus runs out, and it regenerates rather slowly. However, if you pace out your spells, your focus stays high and regenerates slightly faster.
I could also see people having "memory slots" for spells or skills. The more complex a spell or skill is, the more slots it takes up. For example, magic missile might take up one slot, while an enlarged fireball takes up 7-8. This represents all the various skills one can have in active memory. For example, I can program as well as fence. But I assure you, I'm not programming while I fence! This range of "remembered skills" can be narrow or wide, depending on how long a character has been in the game. This doesn't make any one character better, it just enhances the sheer variety of spells or skills they can have ready at any one given time.
Goblinworks Founder
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The Vancian magic system would never work in a real time combat engine. I have always been in favour of an action point system like Warhammer Online used, this varies from spell points or mana in that everyone uses the same resource, whether it be for spells or skills it is drained from a pool of points that simulate time.
There is one thing that I cannot stand in most MMO's and that is several different types of resource management that are basically the same thing; The worst case I have seen this was in Age of Conan. Age of Conan had Mana for magic, and stamina for everything else. The problem with this was that non-magic classes had to share their class abilities with sprint and dodge because they all drained stamina. Whereas magic users could sprint until the cows came home because their abilities drained mana. This was a flaw at the most basic level of design that never should have happened.
The stamina mechanic in Age of Conan was good if you took out the magic equation. If you over-used your stamina you would have a small exhausted debuff so management was important. If all classes had used the stamina mechanic it would have been much better and much easier to balance.
The Skyrim version of casting was well done also. You had to equip the spell in your casting hand, I think something similar to this could work very well in a skill system. I can visualize an old school Elf Fighter/Mage with a longsword in one hand and a small ball of magic fire swirling in his offhand.
In any case, I am in favor of a universal resource that is drawn upon for all abilities whether they are magical, physical or divine. Whether it is called stamina, initiative, action points or energy is irrelevant. What is relevant is that everyone uses the same resource.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If there's a X% chance of remembering the spell when starting to cast it, it doesn't matter if you've cast it once or fifty times, there's a X% chance it's available...
Let's pretend I have Skill Rank 4 in Fireball. That means I should be able to cast it between 4 and 8 times. There is 0% chance I will forget it for each of the first 4 casts. When I cast it the 5th time, there is a 20% chance I will forget it. 6th, 40%. 7th, 60%. 8th, 80%. 9th, 100%.
That's the way I was seeing it.
This is functionally equivalent to rolling a random number between 4 and 8 when the spell is prepared, and that number representing the number of times you'd be able to cast it.
I very much like your ideas on complexity and fatigue impacting these chances.
No one wants to get in 4-5 fights, then have to log off for 3 hours as their spells recharge.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not talking about a "per day" mechanic. I'm talking about Spell Preparation, and Forgetting.
I played a MUD based on the Dragonlance world in which I sat down to re-memorize the spells I'd cast pretty much after every combat. That worked fine. I don't see why something similar wouldn't work in an MMO. Most players are already trained that they have to at least wait a little bit to regen their mana. If that time is spent "re-memorizing spells", what's the difference?
There is one thing that I cannot stand in most MMO's and that is several different types of resource management that are basically the same thing...
I would really like to see a tri-part Fatigue system, divided among Mind, Body, and Spirit. Personally, I would set it up so that there was really only one Fatigue score, and the separate scores for Mind, Body, and Spirit were simply factors that modified the incoming loss or gain.
For example, let's use 100 Fatigue as the base value. Our Wizard has a fairly frail Body at 50. He's got a normal Spirit at 100, and a strong Mind at 400. If he Sprints which costs 10 Body Fatigue, then his true Fatigue will actually be reduced by 20. If he casts Fireball which costs 20 Mind Fatigue, then his true Fatigue will only be reduced by 5.
You know, in Unearthed Arcana for 3.5 they already have a couple spell casting variants, in particular the recharge system seems like it could translate into an MMO fairly seemlessly, with it balancing at 1 round = to the actions that other classes could take in that same period of time. IE 1 to 6 second recharge on a spell that is supposed to recharge in 1 round. I know a round is supposed to be 6 seconds, but the hard numbers can always be changed to bring things into proper balance.
On a personal note, I don't always require a faithful representation of the past in order for me to gain enjoyment out of something. There have been many times when I wanted to create my own spell casting system that was an effect to point driven system to create truly customizable, unique spells. In the sense that you learn control over an type of element of magic, and can choose to add that element to any spells you cast. Creating Sages who research magic to uncover the various ways it can be mixed and matched. The partical effects for that many different spell combinations would be the difficult part in implementing that style of magic system in an MMO. But the rules have always allowed for people to be creative and invent their own spells, I think I have even seen a few models for the type of system I discribed. Where one can learn the core elements of magic: Fire, Ice, Electricity, Push, Pull, Mind asleep, Mind Awake, Metal, Survey Environment, Distance, Shape, Divination - ETC.
Where something like Fire, Survey Environment, Distance, and Shape gives a sort of Fire Sense, where one can Detect Fires, (Allowing them to scan through walls for torches) or Gems, to seek out and find valuable Gems.
Would be a very Complex and ambitious undertaking to make it succeed at the level I envision it which could potentially have countless spell combinations.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I would really like to see a tri-part Fatigue system, divided among Mind, Body, and Spirit. Personally, I would set it up so that there was really only one Fatigue score, and the separate scores for Mind, Body, and Spirit were simply factors that modified the incoming loss or gain.For example, let's use 100 Fatigue as the base value. Our Wizard has a fairly frail Body at 50. He's got a normal Spirit at 100, and a strong Mind at 400. If he Sprints which costs 10 Body Fatigue, then his true Fatigue will actually be reduced by 20. If he casts Fireball which costs 20 Mind Fatigue, then his true Fatigue will only be reduced by 5.
Something like that would be great. I'd want to add the thought that the wizard with frail Body would be more vulnerable to attacks which target Body.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd want to add the thought that the wizard with frail Body would be more vulnerable to attacks which target Body.
Exactly. While the buff Fighter with a 400 Body would be much less vulnerable to the same attacks. And that Paladin with 9,000(!) Spirit is right nigh invulnerable to attacks designed to decrease his morale, or cause him fear.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd want to add the thought that the wizard with frail Body would be more vulnerable to attacks which target Body.Exactly. While the buff Fighter with a 400 Body would be much less vulnerable to the same attacks. And that Paladin with 9,000(!) Spirit is right nigh invulnerable to attacks designed to decrease his morale, or cause him fear.
I agree but I also have to point out, body is going to need to really mean armor. If body is focused more on a passive stat, then a 20/20 wiz pali is going to be 4x stronger than a pure wizard. You wind up with super characters that can eventually become nigh invulnerable to everything. IMO most passives should be conditional on equipment. IE a pali is very strong against fear, in the event he is wearing full plate with his diety's symbol etched into it. Thus eliminating the combination of "Powerful spells weak body" being mixed with "Low attack, extremely strong body". (I am of course assuming that fullplate will greatly reduce if not eliminate effectiveness of arcane spellcasting).
Now we still have messes when trying to ballance cleric pali mixtures, but I am assuming as a whole base HP won't be a strong varience between even wizards and palis (unless HP bonuses are also armor related) so the lesser difference between cleric and pali should be mostly contained. As well certain attacks should probably be tied to weaponry. With cleric spells involving something that is much weaker attackwise than weapons a paladin is normally using.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... body is going to need to really mean armor.
Well, certainly Body would be protected by armor...
I was not suggesting the Body stat would in any way related to what we think of as Hit Points, but rather what we think of as Stamina.
In effect, I'm describing a single Stamina score, that can be reduced by performing actions. Each action is classified as either requiring Physical exertion, Mental exertion, or Spiritual exertion. The actual reduction in your Stamina score is modified by your Body, Mind, or Spirit, accordingly. Think of your Body score as your resistance to the effects of physical exertion.
I also see the Stamina score regenerate at a variable rate - increasing quickly when it's almost full, and slowing down considerably as it gets low. I find this desirable because it requires Wizards and Fighters both to self-regulate their actions to ensure they don't completely exhaust themselves.
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Goblinworks Founder
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I would highly favour a system that uses stamina as long as mental, spiritual and physical exertion all use the same pool. As I mentioned previously, Age of Conan had separate pools for stamina and mana and this led to magic using classes with near unlimited sprint ability. Whether it be stamina, initiative or action points, as long as it is a single resource that everybody utilises. This is especially important with a skill system that allows players to cross class skills ie; Magic and Martial skills.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Put stamina as the value which is depleted by ability use, and body, mind, and spirit the values which are depleted by hits on you. Once any of body, mind, or spirit are depleted, you become incapacitated.
Limit the total of mind, body, spirit, and stamina to some constant number. You can be more effective at some types of attack and defense, at the cost of being more vulnerable to others.
Armor would reduce damage to your MBS by qualifying attacks, but increase the fatigue cost of abilities, or have some other negative effect.
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Goblinworks Founder
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Never Winter Nights proved that doing it by the book wasn't going to work well. Casters would go through their spells on the first few monsters then have to rest each time to regain them. Least that's in the beginning levels, but can't say it wouldn't happen in raids.
DeciusBrutus has the right idea, casters would become exhausted after casting so many spells and would need to rest to catch their breathe before the next round.
Still have to figure how to do the whole system, if you want to use stamina or spirt (modified by int/willpower I think those should be the main stats as spells are more of a mental drainer then stamina... but then you have Raistlin ) that regain slowly so they can still be of some use in a dungeon. They would have to keep in mind how to hold back or not blow all the big spells in the beginning as it would reduce their stamina. Factors like fatigue, hunger or maybe even diseases would play the part in how fast it regains.
Probably some spells would even slow it down even more with how powerful it is; so you wouldn't be the "Power Word: Death" machine gun caster.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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If you have the chance to sit down and take a breather, stamina should recover rather quickly. I'm not sure if mind, body, and spirit should also heal quickly, or should have some kind of two-tiered setup of loss versus damage, with loss recovering quickly with rest or healing, but damage requiring treatment not available in the wilderness.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like the idea of spell points that regenerate slowly over time, with the option of resting and recovering the SP's fully. As long as there is a limit as to how often you can rest, then it would keep it in check.
I also like spell points as it allows a spell caster to use a few high level spells (with a higher SP cost) or more low level spells. Either way it provides flexibility and allows the player to play they way they want to.
Obviously this is very different form D&D's cast and forget system, but it make sense to have a different system for a MMO. The main downside is it makes all spell casters similiar to sorcerers or psions.
So if a spell point system was implimented how could we retain the differences of sorcerers over wizard? Personally I've always preferred wizards over sorcerers as I love the flexibility.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you have the chance to sit down and take a breather, stamina should recover rather quickly. I'm not sure if mind, body, and spirit should also heal quickly, or should have some kind of two-tiered setup of loss versus damage, with loss recovering quickly with rest or healing, but damage requiring treatment not available in the wilderness.
I too support loss and damage. I see loss as you going from 100/100 to 80/100 stamina, while damage as going from 100/100 to 80/80. Eventually, you'll be reduced in combat effectiveness that you need to take a downer at an inn or some such.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I too support loss ...damage as going from 100/100 to 80/80. Eventually, you'll be reduced in combat effectiveness that you need to take a downer at an inn or some such.
Either you make the rest time fairly short, then it is just a nuisance to the player and the group ("wait guys, got to rest here for 5 minutes, sorry") or the time needed to rest is significant.
In the latter case, if there is a notable reduction of effectiveness attached (-20% is crippling!), the character will be considered unplayable unless his 100% are leaps and bounds ahead of the other chars which would raise one hell of a balance issue.
So, no, I can't see something like that in the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I too support loss ...damage as going from 100/100 to 80/80. Eventually, you'll be reduced in combat effectiveness that you need to take a downer at an inn or some such.Either you make the rest time fairly short, then it is just a nuisance to the player and the group ("wait guys, got to rest here for 5 minutes, sorry") or the time needed to rest is significant.
In the latter case, if there is a notable reduction of effectiveness attached (-20% is crippling!), the character will be considered unplayable unless his 100% are leaps and bounds ahead of the other chars which would raise one hell of a balance issue.
So, no, I can't see something like that in the game.
I don't mean just for casters. I mean for *all* classes. Lets just use stamina as a term for the basic ability use stat. Using a skill would cost some of your stamina. The more you have, the faster it regenerates. Once you run out, you can use only your most basic of attacks. As combat goes on, you might end up losing a point or two. That wouldn't happen all the time, it might not even be frequent.
The idea is that after several solid hours of adventuring (somewhere about 6), the player would need to take a break, or end up being less effective. About a total of 24 hours of combat without dealing with such "battle fatigue", in my mind, reduces a character to a near useless state, perhaps a hard floor of 1/2 of the character's original stamina pool.
The numbers are completely off the cuff, we could talk about actual numbers later if people felt the need for it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Still I can't see the merit of this except for RP reasons.
Let's say you are with your buddies looking for a dungeon entrance. You search the hex for about an hour, then do the dungeon another hour.
As you leave the dungeon with plunder and infamy you encounter another group. Alas you are now fatigued and the other group mows you down JUST because it has just rested.
Fun?
I see the merits of a mechanic that prevents the spamming of abilities or endless sprinting capabilities. Fine by me, I hope these are in.
But this is short term. You just sprinted for 30s now your stamina is zero, if you sit down 15s it will be back up. And yes, casting should cost stamina as well else the caster will lob the warrior with spells and then sprint away.
So, in short,
anti ability-spamming mechanics = great
penalizing for playing more than n hours = bad
My hope is that no aspect of vancian magic makes it into the game. I would prefer any other method of resource management.
I am intrigued by Nihimon's fatigue system, but I wonder what distinction you are making between Mind and Spirit? The stats lend themselves to Body/Mind pretty easily, but I don't really see where Spirit fits.
I like the idea of everyone starting out with the same type of resource, since we'll all be the same on day one, barring stats, pre skill selection.
While interesting, WoW's resource systems are essentially nothing more than elaborate cooldowns. They could be completely eliminated and replaced with series of cooldowns without changing gameplay. Although I'm not sure how satisfying that would be.
Given the nature of PFO's character development, the simplest solution (for sake of argument) would be to not have any resource system and only use cooldowns gained (and shortened) via skills. The "cost" of using any ability is just waiting for it to become available again.
Since everyone makes their character prior to selecting archtypes or skills, where would one have the opportunity to gain a mana bar? Would it appear the first time you select a spell as a skill? What happens if another archetype (say Barbarian) has a different resource (say Rage) and you decide to multiclass--do you then have a mana bar and a rage bar?
Nihimon's idea fits well here, since everyone would start with everything and there's no wierdness during advancement. Although at the moment I think Body/Mind would suffice.
As far as distinguishing between Sorcerers and Wizards, broaden that thought a bit. "Guy with mana," without knowing anything else about him, could describe most classes. Any distinction would come only from their archetype packages, and we don't know anything about those yet.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Still I can't see the merit of this except for RP reasons.
Let's say you are with your buddies looking for a dungeon entrance. You search the hex for about an hour, then do the dungeon another hour.
As you leave the dungeon with plunder and infamy you encounter another group. Alas you are now fatigued and the other group mows you down JUST because it has just rested.
Fun?
I see the merits of a mechanic that prevents the spamming of abilities or endless sprinting capabilities. Fine by me, I hope these are in.
But this is short term. You just sprinted for 30s now your stamina is zero, if you sit down 15s it will be back up. And yes, casting should cost stamina as well else the caster will lob the warrior with spells and then sprint away.
So, in short,
anti ability-spamming mechanics = great
penalizing for playing more than n hours = bad
This could be an encouragement to take a bard out adventuring. It doesn't need to be a crazy advantage, but someone who rests up and is fully prepared for combat *should* be better at it than the guy who just fought for 24 hours solid.
The game in which I experienced a similar mechanic was Star Wars Galaxies. You gained battle fatigue as you fought (at a *slow* rate), which was increased if you took damage. You picked up a healthy chunk of battle fatigue if your character died and was cloned. I could play for most of a day and get maybe 150/1000 battle fatigue if I wasn't playing foolishly. If I screwed up and died several times, that would rise right on up.
Long story short, I want a reason for characters to build those frontier inns. I want bards to have a reason to have an amazing perform skill. I want character interdependence to be a part of the game on just about every level.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The merit of this type of system is balance. Magic is traditionally relatively powerful, so there are limitations to how often they can be cast. Not implementing a limited magical system like this would drastically change the flavour of Golarion. If you want to be able to toss out spells at whim, then you need to limit the power of spells to that of a standard melee weapon.
If you just want unlimited flashy lights, I would fully support zero effect flashy enchantments.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you want to be able to toss out spells at whim, then you need to limit the power of spells to that of a standard melee weapon.
Not quite. Offense, Utility and Defense must be balanced, so spells can be more powerful if there are other drawbacks.
How would you like a character that wipes the floor with anyone when his spells are up and is totally useless if not? Not. Gonna. Work.
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The game in which I experienced a similar mechanic was Star Wars Galaxies.
As you said, this was a death penalty system with a weak side course of anti botting measure. Not quite akin to what you describe you want for PFO.
If you want structures like Inns have a meaning then they should give out buffs, much more balanced and doesn't screw anyone around.
How about a system where you get different melds that you can soulbind, including to different body chakras, and essentia point you can invest in different soulmelds. The soulmelds take a while to change, but essentia can be moved around quickly. With magic items, you can meld them to various chakras as well...
No? Ah well...
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Goblin Squad Member
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The merit of this type of system is balance. Magic is traditionally relatively powerful, so there are limitations to how often they can be cast. Not implementing a limited magical system like this would drastically change the flavour of Golarion. If you want to be able to toss out spells at whim, then you need to limit the power of spells to that of a standard melee weapon.
Agreed. In a TT game Pauly the Paladin has fairly even, low utility in each encounter. Just using damage as a proxy, Pauly attacks every round over an evening with three encounters, hitting or missing each round,but "doing" something each round, with a total damage output over the session of let's say 54 pts of damage.
Sandy the Sorcerer doesn't "do" as much--maybe she only casts two spells per encounter, but she also does about 54 pts of damage over the course of the evening.
One is relatively more burst, one is relatively more sustained, but each character has about the same net contribution to the party's success against encounters.
The TT structure is casters having relatively high burst damage: a 6th level can cast 3 or 4 fireballs per session, each one doing 6-36 pts of damage for every opponent in the area of effect. The 6th level fighter can make two attacks on an opponent, one at a significant disadvantage to hit for something more like 4-11 pts of damage (with maybe the possibility of a cleave).
I'd be ok with constant casting if the damage output/utility of spells was scaled down so that every class got to "do" something at the same rate and at the same level of value to the party.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... stamina should recover rather quickly. I'm not sure if mind, body, and spirit should also heal quickly...
You're using the terms differently than I intended.
Think of it as a single Fatigue rating, that is modified by Physical Stamina, Mental Stamina, and Spiritual Stamina. That may help you better understand what I was proposing.
@MicMan, I would want this system to allow character to fully recover from Fatigue in a matter of minutes after combat. I think there's a lot of people who would like to see something like SWG's Battle Fatigue, though. I liked that mechanic as well, but it should never be significant enough to really turn the tide of battle unless someone refuses to ever rest and recover from it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd be ok with constant casting if the damage output/utility of spells was scaled down so that every class got to "do" something at the same rate and at the same level of value to the party.
I'd really like the player to be able to choose whether they want to do big burst damage or lower sustained damage.
I'd like to be able to cast a very powerful Fireball that not only did a lot more damage but also had a much lower chance to miss or be resisted, and then know that I would have to rest for a while after doing that or risk exhausting myself.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How about a system where you get different melds that you can soulbind, including to different body chakras, and essentia point you can invest in different soulmelds. The soulmelds take a while to change, but essentia can be moved around quickly. With magic items, you can meld them to various chakras as well...
I really like these kind of gimmicky elements as long as they're related to a particular archetype. I wouldn't want all characters to operate within this system.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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... stamina should recover rather quickly. I'm not sure if mind, body, and spirit should also heal quickly...You're using the terms differently than I intended.
Think of it as a single Fatigue rating, that is modified by Physical Stamina, Mental Stamina, and Spiritual Stamina. That may help you better understand what I was proposing.
@MicMan, I would want this system to allow character to fully recover from Fatigue in a matter of minutes after combat. I think there's a lot of people who would like to see something like SWG's Battle Fatigue, though. I liked that mechanic as well, but it should never be significant enough to really turn the tide of battle unless someone refuses to ever rest and recover from it.
I was suggesting using Mind, Body, and Spirit as Hit Points. If stamina serves as both the pool from which abilities are used and the number decremented by being hit, self-heals become confusing. Healing in general becomes odd.
Plus I like the fact that taking damage to a combat stat eliminates the 'critical existence failure' mechanic, where you can fight at full effectiveness when almost dead, then stub your toe and die.
If there is damage you need to go to an inn or make camp to heal, the time you need to spend healing should be minimal- it's the trip to the inn that is important.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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While I think that being attacked should also cause Fatigue, I do not believe that should be the primary means of recording damage.
Ideally, to my mind, damage would be recorded as a list of wounds, each of which has a specific set of associated effects.
That would be great. I would love to see such a system. I have no reason to believe it's going to be available outside of Dwarf Fortress in the foreseeable future.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd be ok with constant casting if the damage output/utility of spells was scaled down so that every class got to "do" something at the same rate and at the same level of value to the party.I'd really like the player to be able to choose whether they want to do big burst damage or lower sustained damage.
I'd like to be able to cast a very powerful Fireball that not only did a lot more damage but also had a much lower chance to miss or be resisted, and then know that I would have to rest for a while after doing that or risk exhausting myself.
I think that cool, and would enhance gameplay as players made choices that had in-game consequences. I think it has to be uniform across archetypes though--we can't talk about casters in a vacuum.
How about a system where you get different melds that you can soulbind, including to different body chakras, and essentia point you can invest in different soulmelds. The soulmelds take a while to change, but essentia can be moved around quickly. With magic items, you can meld them to various chakras as well...I really like these kind of gimmicky elements as long as they're related to a particular archetype. I wouldn't want all characters to operate within this system.
Awww... A Magic of incarnum MMO would rock...
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think that cool, and would enhance gameplay as players made choices that had in-game consequences. I think it has to be uniform across archetypes though--we can't talk about casters in a vacuum.I'd be ok with constant casting if the damage output/utility of spells was scaled down so that every class got to "do" something at the same rate and at the same level of value to the party.I'd really like the player to be able to choose whether they want to do big burst damage or lower sustained damage.
I'd like to be able to cast a very powerful Fireball that not only did a lot more damage but also had a much lower chance to miss or be resisted, and then know that I would have to rest for a while after doing that or risk exhausting myself.
Although, all the flashyness and SFX aside, this is the difference between the different archetypes. Mages put out massive burst damage and if not multi-classed, are then useless until they recharge/rest...and this should not be a fast process. This makes mages especially good in the rear on battlefields, or even as a last line of offense when all else fails against a powerful mob. Other classes have other strengths and weaknesses, which is why you make a party of different classes so they can cover each others butts.
How would you like a character that wipes the floor with anyone when his spells are up and is totally useless if not? Not. Gonna. Work.
Quit the contrary, it is called balance, ever try to play a game with any other class when you are partnered with a Munchkining Angel Summoner? I have...for everyone not an Angel Summoner, Not. Gonna. Work.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Although, all the flashyness and SFX aside, this is the difference between the different archetypes. Mages put out massive burst damage and if not multi-classed, are then useless until they recharge/rest...and this should not be a fast process. This makes mages especially good in the rear on battlefields, or even as a last line of offense when all else fails against a powerful mob. Other classes have other strengths and weaknesses, which is why you make a party of different classes so they can cover each others butts.
That paradigm works great in tabletop, but needs to be changed for an MMO. At some level, whether I'm playing a melee type, a divine caster, a jack of all trades type, I need to be able to "do" things at a similar rate across the board for the game to be fun. The "useless until they recharge/rest" part of your post only makes sense in tabletop, where time is notional.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That paradigm works great in tabletop, but needs to be changed for an MMO. At some level, whether I'm playing a melee type, a divine caster, a jack of all trades type, I need to be able to "do" things at a similar rate across the board for the game to be fun. The "useless until they recharge/rest" part of your post only makes sense in tabletop, where time is notional.
Although, all the flashyness and SFX aside, this is the difference between the different archetypes. Mages put out massive burst damage and if not multi-classed, are then useless until they recharge/rest...and this should not be a fast process. This makes mages especially good in the rear on battlefields, or even as a last line of offense when all else fails against a powerful mob. Other classes have other strengths and weaknesses, which is why you make a party of different classes so they can cover each others butts.
This is generally true for combat & class balance in MMOs and even a vital consideration if a class is not going to be a complete dud because it is not popular because it is not fun to play 80% of any combat.
However I wonder if that is such an issue in a sandbox game, given it's about allowing players to make choices in how they approach things? Eg a low frequency of such a class could be what makes it effective for the few happy to use this class? Or the mega-build-up skills could an optional specialism to build up over days (gametime)? As there should be other activities ppl can do this could suit a crafter quite nicely eg?! Caveat being devs probably aim for even distribution of archetypes per se, but maybe this sort of flexible specialism could find room below that?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Mages put out massive burst damage and if not multi-classed, are then useless until they recharge/rest...and this should not be a fast process.
I hope that PFO offers the same kind of versatility in how we play our classes as PFRPG does.
I can easily play a Wizard who doesn't really do much damage at all. In fact, I was quite inspired when I sat down with Pathfinder_OGC to try to create a Wizard, and I simply fell in love with the idea of an Elven Wizard, Divination specialist with Necromancy and Evocation as opposition schools, and the Scroll Scholar alternate archetype.
I will be a little disappointed if our roles are so cookie-cutter based on our Archetypes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can easily play a Wizard who doesn't really do much damage at all. In fact, I was quite inspired when I sat down with Pathfinder_OGC to try to create a Wizard, and I simply fell in love with the idea of an Elven Wizard, Divination specialist with Necromancy and Evocation as opposition schools, and the Scroll Scholar alternate archetype.
I agree. Hopefully GW will build magic schools into their skill system, so that when you take the Wizard route, you have the option to specialize in the different schools of magic. Enchantment can be just as big an advantage on the battlefield as Evocation.
The "useless until they recharge/rest" part of your post only makes sense in tabletop, where time is notional.
The problem here is that in PFRPG or D&D, wizards rule the game. They can deal more damage than a barbarian on steroids (specially to large groups of foes), can sneak as good as a rogue (invisibility and silence anyone?), and can take damage like a fighter (stoneskin, nuff' said.)
They balance this awesomeness with 3 things; limited spells per day, pre-selection of daily spells, and spell component cost. So either PFO needs to keep a similar system of balance, or they need to seriously decrease the power of the spells.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would rather see them give the player the option of either:
1. Casting very powerful spells only rarely; or
2. Casting weaker spells more often.
I would really like to be able to play on the edges and only strike when the opportunity for maximal effect presents itself. I would actually like to be able to choose spells which are very powerful, but only effective in very specific situations - then my challenge is to find ways to create those situations.
In a 6v6 battle, I would much rather cast Lightning Bolt three times, and completely disable an enemy with each cast, than spam it almost as often as the Paladin spams his Shield Bash. I may not be representative, though.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would rather see them give the player the option of either:
1. Casting very powerful spells only rarely; or
2. Casting weaker spells more often.
Not to drown you in Elder Scroll references, but in Skyrim you have the ability to charge your spells to higher degrees. So you can quickly cast a spell (lets say fireball) to do small amount of damage, or you can charge the spell for a few seconds and cast a massive fireball that does high damage.
This could also work with the Fatigue system you had suggested, with the higher charges draining more fatigue, to help with balance.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hrm...
Maybe I should check out this "Skyrim" of which you speak...
I kind of doubt it though, I didn't even like single-player games back in the 80's. There's just something terribly boring to me about living out a story that someone else wrote. That's why I quickly grew to despise SWTOR.