Silveran's page

I don't see how you can have every player have the ability to be a free radical and make massive changes to a world mediated by players.

I am not necessarily referring to individual player actions, but take WoW for instance. You grid to the top level, you enter their "Epic" end game content, only to be reduced to Grinding the same Bosses over and over again. "Oh yeah, we killed Mag'Maw like 100 times already."

Like some of the other people have said, creating lasting change to your environment isn't an easy task, but when a group of people do something momentous, like take down a world boss, I kinda think it should stay dead, unless it is in its write up that you don't actually kill it or something. The Tarrasque for instance.

I am talking about the development of nations from frontiers, brought forth on the backs of like minded determined individuals. The slow build up of a massive trade empire, crafted by the wit of Merchant Princes.

Not everyone is going to be a central figure, but a common soldier can feel just as important playing his part, as a general organizing the hunt for that dragon that has been terrorizing and razzing the town. It is the sense of community that is important in that regard.

On a personal note, I don't always require a faithful representation of the past in order for me to gain enjoyment out of something. There have been many times when I wanted to create my own spell casting system that was an effect to point driven system to create truly customizable, unique spells. In the sense that you learn control over an type of element of magic, and can choose to add that element to any spells you cast. Creating Sages who research magic to uncover the various ways it can be mixed and matched. The partical effects for that many different spell combinations would be the difficult part in implementing that style of magic system in an MMO. But the rules have always allowed for people to be creative and invent their own spells, I think I have even seen a few models for the type of system I discribed. Where one can learn the core elements of magic: Fire, Ice, Electricity, Push, Pull, Mind asleep, Mind Awake, Metal, Survey Environment, Distance, Shape, Divination - ETC.

Where something like Fire, Survey Environment, Distance, and Shape gives a sort of Fire Sense, where one can Detect Fires, (Allowing them to scan through walls for torches) or Gems, to seek out and find valuable Gems.

Would be a very Complex and ambitious undertaking to make it succeed at the level I envision it which could potentially have countless spell combinations.

You know, in Unearthed Arcana for 3.5 they already have a couple spell casting variants, in particular the recharge system seems like it could translate into an MMO fairly seemlessly, with it balancing at 1 round = to the actions that other classes could take in that same period of time. IE 1 to 6 second recharge on a spell that is supposed to recharge in 1 round. I know a round is supposed to be 6 seconds, but the hard numbers can always be changed to bring things into proper balance.

Recently in the thread "Warning: The Eve Way" I saw so much attention given over to the mechanics of Combat and wanted to draw more attention toward the other aspects of game play. So in the spirt of that I ask this question:

What aspects of the game in general would make your ideal MMO RPG?

I will post what I posted in the other thread for frame of reference. I guess it can also serve as an introductory post for myself as well. *Smiles*

"I would like to start off that I do not know about Pathfinder, other then that it is based off of 3.5 DnD and is a continuation of that rule set, to the best of my knowledge. I am very familiar with DnD and the 3.5 system in general. I just found out about this project from kickstart.com and I am debating on if I should support it or not.

I have read almost all 6 pages of this tread, (The first five, and then a quick gloss over the 6th) and it amazes me that, out of the entire depth of complexity that goes into a game of this nature; it is the PvP and Combat that are focused on almost exclusively. And on both camps, I hear very few constructive positive solutions.

I played EVE Online for 3 years, EVE had many positive and negative elements; for the sake of the developers let me focus on the positive elements that I actually liked about the game.

One of the primary draws of EVE Online, IS its player driven sandbox style of play. It draws people to it, who want to feel like their actions have impact, that they can grow with and shape the world with their growing. That they can construct empires, influence politics, actually make something, breathing life into until it starts to take off on its own. They are addicted to their Investment, to the idea that they can someday create this sprawling empire if things align just right, if they just get the people to support them; or, they see themselves one day playing part in a decisive battle that will change the course of the game in some lasting way.

My biggest criticism of EVE, is mostly that they are shallow. They didn't find a way to effectively allow the player to become a free radical in their world, AND tie them in to the story, the environment. Their is no Co-Creation, and the only RPG elements of the game, are mostly found outside of the game itself, in the blogs that lead up to major game changes, and a few in game events. It leaves a disenchanted feel overall, and the only thing you are actually getting out of the game IS your investment, and being the small dog on the block, it makes it increasingly difficult for new players to see those grand dreams becoming reality. So it initially generates a RABIDLY loyal user base, built around their various interests, their various investments. But as with most games, eventually you are going to feel capped and stagnant, like many people do in real life, even in a sandbox player driven world, where the people are constantly every day writing their history on those digital pages.

Writing their history they are too, I think their are more news stories about the internal politics of EVE, with more of a user base following those stories, that history, then in any other game. Because the players matter. That is the primary draw of EVE.

When they finally announced that CCP was going to do World of Darkness Online in partnership with White Wolf? OMG I did a little happy dance JIG. I love eve's immersive game play if you can get over how shallow its content is and focus on the player driven aspect of it. I am not really a fan of Space Games (One of the primary reasons I left EVE, it just couldn't hold my attention or desire since I wasn't a mover and shaker and the actually game play was hollow.) But put that same player driven concepts into a fantasy setting or an urban fantasy setting... You have me frothing at the mouth hook line and sinker. A sand box style MMO, built with the partnership of table top storytelling masters, with the promise of having both and Immersive player driven game world, and game play; with the feel that you were taking part in something majestic, something greater. EVE's skill based system where the older you are the more powerful you become makes PERFECT sense in that setting also. It is those dynamics that make the game take on a life of its own, that bring a whole new level of politics and social community that is the GLUE to games like this. Pillars of the community, so to speak. And while a group of novices should be able to bring one of these pillars down, shaking up the status quo. It should still feel like something special.

No one should be untouchable, like in WoW, where you could have 1000 lvl 1's beating on a lvl 85, and he could fart and kill half of them. But those who have put their blood sweat and tears into becoming those pillars, leaders, the glue of nations. They shouldn't be trivialized either.

That being said, if the Dev's want it to be both player driven, but risk free (no permadeath/sever death penalties) Then this sandbox style RPG is going to need STRONG RPG elements where the players feel like they are co creating a story, and a damn good one; or the politics isn't going to be anywhere near as stable or epic in scope. It is that element of risk that draws people together and creates communities, and it is communities that make most sandbox style games fun, communities that keep people coming back. If I hadn't been in my Corp, working toward a common goal, I would have left EVE alot sooner then I did, alot sooner. It was only when the Corp fell apart after some betrayals and hard times that I actually left the game for good, and if it had been set in a fantasy setting, or had an immersive single player draw where I could still feel like my actions mattered, and I could still take place in the co creation of the history that scares and marks the world of EVE, I would have stayed.

Creating the perfect storm, of allowing players to feel like their actions matter, that they are taking part in something grand, allowing the flourishing of a player driven economics, with the appropriate understanding of economics to plan for sink holes so money generated doesn't over flood the system. Having a high degree of customization on all levels over the aesthetics and abilities of the characters to increase their overall attachment to their avatar, and increase individualism. Balancing political tension, and the development of factions and communities, and many many more elements, are what could make a promising Sandbox RPG into a truly AMAZING experience.

Combat will play a role in that, and it may even play a very important role as that is how nations shape and change their boarders, but it is no more important then many of the other aspects that could also be discussed. Lets not forget at the rich environment and game play itself and how they are going to introduce the PVP such that it engages and helps this model succeed rather then fail.

The Pefect Storm has more then one element, things truly have to be just right. Over emphasis on one element will throw the entirety of the projects scope off balance."

I would like to start off that I do not know about Pathfinder, other then that it is based off of 3.5 DnD and is a continuation of that rule set, to the best of my knowledge. I am very familiar with DnD and the 3.5 system in general. I just found out about this project from kickstart.com and I am debating on if I should support it or not.

I have read almost all 6 pages of this tread, (The first five, and then a quick gloss over the 6th) and it amazes me that, out of the entire depth of complexity that goes into a game of this nature; it is the PvP and Combat that are focused on almost exclusively. And on both camps, I hear very few constructive positive solutions.

I played EVE Online for 3 years, EVE had many positive and negative elements; for the sake of the developers let me focus on the positive elements that I actually liked about the game.

One of the primary draws of EVE Online, IS its player driven sandbox style of play. It draws people to it, who want to feel like their actions have impact, that they can grow with and shape the world with their growing. That they can construct empires, influence politics, actually make something, breathing life into until it starts to take off on its own. They are addicted to their Investment, to the idea that they can someday create this sprawling empire if things align just right, if they just get the people to support them; or, they see themselves one day playing part in a decisive battle that will change the course of the game in some lasting way.

My biggest criticism of EVE, is mostly that they are shallow. They didn't find a way to effectively allow the player to become a free radical in their world, AND tie them in to the story, the environment. Their is no Co-Creation, and the only RPG elements of the game, are mostly found outside of the game itself, in the blogs that lead up to major game changes, and a few in game events. It leaves a disenchanted feel overall, and the only thing you are actually getting out of the game IS your investment, and being the small dog on the block, it makes it increasingly difficult for new players to see those grand dreams becoming reality. So it initially generates a RABIDLY loyal user base, built around their various interests, their various investments. But as with most games, eventually you are going to feel capped and stagnant, like many people do in real life, even in a sandbox player driven world, where the people are constantly every day writing their history on those digital pages.

Writing their history they are too, I think their are more news stories about the internal politics of EVE, with more of a user base following those stories, that history, then in any other game. Because the players matter. That is the primary draw of EVE.

When they finally announced that CCP was going to do World of Darkness Online in partnership with White Wolf? OMG I did a little happy dance JIG. I love eve's immersive game play if you can get over how shallow its content is and focus on the player driven aspect of it. I am not really a fan of Space Games (One of the primary reasons I left EVE, it just couldn't hold my attention or desire since I wasn't a mover and shaker and the actually game play was hollow.) But put that same player driven concepts into a fantasy setting or an urban fantasy setting... You have me frothing at the mouth hook line and sinker. A sand box style MMO, built with the partnership of table top storytelling masters, with the promise of having both and Immersive player driven game world, and game play; with the feel that you were taking part in something majestic, something greater. EVE's skill based system where the older you are the more powerful you become makes PERFECT sense in that setting also. It is those dynamics that make the game take on a life of its own, that bring a whole new level of politics and social community that is the GLUE to games like this. Pillars of the community, so to speak. And while a group of novices should be able to bring one of these pillars down, shaking up the status quo. It should still feel like something special.

No one should be untouchable, like in WoW, where you could have 1000 lvl 1's beating on a lvl 85, and he could fart and kill half of them. But those who have put their blood sweat and tears into becoming those pillars, leaders, the glue of nations. They shouldn't be trivialized either.

That being said, if the Dev's want it to be both player driven, but risk free (no permadeath/sever death penalties) Then this sandbox style RPG is going to need STRONG RPG elements where the players feel like they are co creating a story, and a damn good one; or the politics isn't going to be anywhere near as stable or epic in scope. It is that element of risk that draws people together and creates communities, and it is communities that make most sandbox style games fun, communities that keep people coming back. If I hadn't been in my Corp, working toward a common goal, I would have left EVE alot sooner then I did, alot sooner. It was only when the Corp fell apart after some betrayals and hard times that I actually left the game for good, and if it had been set in a fantasy setting, or had an immersive single player draw where I could still feel like my actions mattered, and I could still take place in the co creation of the history that scares and marks the world of EVE, I would have stayed.

Creating the perfect storm, of allowing players to feel like their actions matter, that they are taking part in something grand, allowing the flourishing of a player driven economics, with the appropriate understanding of economics to plan for sink holes so money generated doesn't over flood the system. Having a high degree of customization on all levels over the aesthetics and abilities of the characters to increase their overall attachment to their avatar, and increase individualism. Balancing political tension, and the development of factions and communities, and many many more elements, are what could make a promising Sandbox RPG into a truly AMAZING experience.

Combat will play a role in that, and it may even play a very important role as that is how nations shape and change their boarders, but it is no more important then many of the other aspects that could also be discussed. Lets not forget at the rich environment and game play itself and how they are going to introduce the PVP such that it engages and helps this model succeed rather then fail.

The Pefect Storm has more then one element, things truly have to be just right. Over emphasis on one element will throw the entirety of the projects scope off balance.