Familiar hit point question


Rules Questions


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Familiars have hit points equal to half their master's total, regardless of their constitution score. SO then what happens if I cast Bear's endurance or Form of the Dragon III on my familiar?

Does the hit point total change at all (since it was never truly based on Constitution in the first place)?


Follow-up question: do your familiar's HP change if your own constitution change (for the better or the worse)?

Dark Archive

Louis IX wrote:
Follow-up question: do your familiar's HP change if your own constitution change (for the better or the worse)?

Yes, why wouldn't it? Though, in case of temporary changes, the HP of the familiar would change back, when your HP change.

About the first Question...good question...

Liberty's Edge

bears endurance on the familiar would increase its con score and fort saves. not hit point total. on yourself, would increase its hit points (by half as much). But think of the natural armor bonuses! Throw an ammy of natural armor on your familiar, plus the base natural armor of the polymorph, PLUS the natural armor class "ADJUSTMENT" from being a familiar of a wizard of a given level-you can make your familiar really scary. Just gotta max out your con so his HP are at least half-decent.

(Hint: Improved familiar, small earth elemental-highest familiar strength score)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'd imagine that it's based off your hit points from permanent enhancements, which would only include hp from con buffs lasting more that 24 hours.

Liberty's Edge

Presumably, their *permanent* max hp would be based off of yours. But why wouldn't a temporary bonus to yours result in a temporary boost to the familiars? I'm gonna go ahead and say we've crossed firmly out of RAW and into RAI with the discussion at this point, though.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So if I cast Form of the Dragon III on my familiar and he gains +8 Constitution, he gains no extra hit points from the increase? Really?

EDIT: I think I answered the question on my own. I looked up the rules for ability bonuses and they are absolutely clear on the matter:

Ability Score Bonus Rules from the Glossary wrote:

Ability Score Bonuses

Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.

...

Constitution: Temporary increases to your Constitution score give you a bonus on your Fortitude saving throws. In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this bonus and add that amount to your current and total hit points. When the bonus ends, remove this total from your current and total hit points.

...

It looks to me like the recipient of the bonus gets the bonus hit points regardless of how their initial hit points are determined.


I really hate the familiar rules, especially if you take the 'improved familiar' feat. It makes cats and bats much more survivable, but makes psuedodragons and such much more fragile.

In my game, and yes it's a house rule, I have the following :

Familiar HP : Your familiar's HPs are determined as the higher of either 1/2 of your maximum HP, or it's natural racial average HP based on hit dice, whichever is higher.

For example, a housecat is a d4 normally (if I remember correct). If it were a 4HD familiar with a con of 8 (-1), it would have a racial HP of 2.5*4-4 = 10 - 4 = 6hp. If you had 20hp, the familiar would get 10hp.

On the other hand, an improved familiar pseudodragon with 8HD and a 14 (+2) con would have a racial HP total of 5.5*8+16 = 44 + 16 = 60hp. If you had 80hp, it would keep it's racial average hp of 60. If you had 150hp it would get 75 (1/2 yours).


Ravingdork wrote:

Familiars have hit points equal to half their master's total, regardless of their constitution score. SO then what happens if I cast Bear's endurance or Form of the Dragon III on my familiar?

Does the hit point total change at all (since it was never truly based on Constitution in the first place)?

Pathfinder seems to have changed the 3.0/3.5 rules on familiar hps.

It used to be 1/2masters or their own natural whichever was higher. In that case the later would be altered by CON changes and if it changed whether 1/2masters was higher than it then the hps might change.

Now it seems it has nothing to do with the normal familiar's hp one way or the other. The familiar's hps would be based upon the master's hp.

Now changes to the master's hps I would argue should likely be permanent changes or changes that have lasted 24hrs in order to come into effect, but that's me.

Personally I don't see why they changed this rule, perhaps you can get James or Jason to comment if it was intentional or an oversight.

Note that a low CON level 1 wizard could easily have less than twice what a normal familiar's hps might be (as the former might have like 3-5hps while a normal cat has 3hp itself!).

-James

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
mdt wrote:

I really hate the familiar rules, especially if you take the 'improved familiar' feat. It makes cats and bats much more survivable, but makes psuedodragons and such much more fragile.

In my game, and yes it's a house rule, I have the following :

Familiar HP : Your familiar's HPs are determined as the higher of either 1/2 of your maximum HP, or it's natural racial average HP based on hit dice, whichever is higher.

For example, a housecat is a d4 normally (if I remember correct). If it were a 4HD familiar with a con of 8 (-1), it would have a racial HP of 2.5*4-4 = 10 - 4 = 6hp. If you had 20hp, the familiar would get 10hp.

On the other hand, an improved familiar pseudodragon with 8HD and a 14 (+2) con would have a racial HP total of 5.5*8+16 = 44 + 16 = 60hp. If you had 80hp, it would keep it's racial average hp of 60. If you had 150hp it would get 75 (1/2 yours).

I don't understand how the familiar rules make pseudodragons more fragile. The standard pseudodragon that's not a familiar only has a maximum of 15 hit points anyway. The average pathfinder wizard will have better hp than his 3.5 counterpart. As a famillar the pseudodragon will have benes such as improved evasion which means at worst it's only taking half the hit point damage from the fireball you just hot hit with than you are.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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A familiar's hp are equal to half its master's hp. This number—the master's hp—is the number that results from rolling HD as the master gains levels.

Effects that raise or lower Constitution (like the casting of a bear's endurance spell or suffering Constitution drain but NOT Constitution damage) will alter your familiar's maximum hp as well, because you and your familiar kind of share the same life force. This will indeed result in some situations where a particularly low hp caster will have an improved familiar with an unusually low hp total. This is what happens when a low hp caster bonds his life force to a creature. And since the caster's hp continue increasing as he gains levels, it won't stay unusually low for the familiar forever.

As for why the clause that lets a familiar keep his own hp if they were higher was removed, I actually can't say for sure. My guess: It enforces the fact that the master and familiar have a linked lifeline if the familiar doesn't have that out-clause. Or perhaps it was just made to simplify the rule.


LazarX wrote:


I don't understand how the familiar rules make pseudodragons more fragile. The standard pseudodragon that's not a familiar only has a maximum of 15 hit points anyway. The average pathfinder wizard will have better hp than his 3.5 counterpart. As a famillar the pseudodragon will have benes such as improved evasion which means at worst it's only taking half the hit point damage from the fireball you just hot hit with than you are.

Because if a pseudodragon familiar is, say, 8 hit dice (read the description of familiar) then his racial hit dice would be based off 8d10, which averaged would likely be more than half his master's hit points. What you end up with is two pseudodragon's, one free and one familiar, both at 8 hit dice, where the familiar is significantly weaker than the non-familiar.

On top of that, how do you handle the fact that a pseudodragon would have to intentionally weaken himself to become a familiar under these rules.


mdt wrote:
On top of that, how do you handle the fact that a pseudodragon would have to intentionally weaken himself to become a familiar under these rules.

Easy.

Only the runts of the litter (brood? clutch?) are wussy enough to allow themselves to be subjugated into familiarage. The real manly pseudodragons are too snotty give up their freedom like that.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
mdt wrote:
LazarX wrote:


I don't understand how the familiar rules make pseudodragons more fragile. The standard pseudodragon that's not a familiar only has a maximum of 15 hit points anyway. The average pathfinder wizard will have better hp than his 3.5 counterpart. As a famillar the pseudodragon will have benes such as improved evasion which means at worst it's only taking half the hit point damage from the fireball you just hot hit with than you are.

Because if a pseudodragon familiar is, say, 8 hit dice (read the description of familiar) then his racial hit dice would be based off 8d10, which averaged would likely be more than half his master's hit points. What you end up with is two pseudodragon's, one free and one familiar, both at 8 hit dice, where the familiar is significantly weaker than the non-familiar.

On top of that, how do you handle the fact that a pseudodragon would have to intentionally weaken himself to become a familiar under these rules.

Pseudodragons don't have 8 racial hit dice, they have TWO. And it's also obvious that a pseudodragon bonding to a arcanist is not going to be advanced, or any other templated adjustment beyond the basic Bestiary entry.

The hit dice equivalent of a pd familliar isn't racial it's famillar based. So if you decide one morning that you're tired of Maryisa stealing your cherry pies and dismiss her from your service she reverts to being a standard 2 dice pseudodragon even if she had effectively 20 hit dice under your service.

Given that the minimum level of of mage to bond such a familliar is 7 the average HP of a Pathfinder mage will still generally mean that the standard Pseudodragon will wind up tougher than it's non-bonded twin sister.

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