Seeking advice for running two Gestalt PCs

[Hito]

Hi all. I am running with a party of two gestalt PCs(a Samurai/Fighter and a Monk/Ninja). I'm curious as to whether anyone might have any insights as to how I can best scale their encounters and so forth. The core rulebook suggests that they should face encounters of their APL -1, but I've seen it suggested that gestalt characters face CLs 1 or 2 levels higher than their APL. What would be a solid guideline for a decent challenge for these two?

I imagine they will be carrying a lot of potions as they don't have any healing abilities, and I've wondered if giving them a +50% or even +100% bonus to their HD rolls at each level wouldn't be reasonable--but I worry that it may disrupt the balance at later levels. What do you guys think? I kind of like the appeal of them having an extended longevity between encounters, but I still want them to feel the necessity to rest and whatnot.

Thanks for any help.

[Hito]

Oh! I also wanted to mention that I understand the principles of their action economy, etc, but as they are only level 1, we've not yet had a taste of how much stronger the gestalt approach alone will make them in comparison to standard classes. I suppose my primary concern is the distribution of damage -- as there are only two of them, it seems natural that they will both be absorbing more damage than a typical 4-player party.

[Eben TheQuiet]

Those don't seem like especially powerful gestalt combos. What's their stat arrays?

[Tirq]

I'm not gonna lie, they will breeze through any encouter involving stealth or fighting. On the other hand, any social encounter or magical encounter will be painful for them.

Just have a healthy mix of Might and Magic and all will be good. Don't be too generous with the potions, but don't be stingy.

[Hito]

We went with the 18/16/14/12/10/8 array.

[Jal Dorak]

I have a lot of experience running games with gestalt PCs. My biggest point of advice is not to overestimate their power level. A gestalt player gets an artificial sense of invincibility - they deal very well with CRs at or below their level, and maintaining extended adventuring time.

But remember that the action economy works against them in two ways:

1) The ratio of enemies increases, meaning the PCs are vulnerable to more attacks (and easier to flank and gang-up on), critical hits, save-or-die effects, and so forth.

2) The PCs can still only take one turn each round, which means any actions are magnified. Spend a turn healing? You just lost 50% of your damage output for the round.

All of this combines to create a situation that is very swingy for the characters. They can shrug things off more easily, but they have to do so more often than normal characters. One bad roll could mean the party loses 50% of their resources.

A way to alleviate this would be to allow each PC to take two turns each round (which I have tried, it does help), and to roll two saving throws against each effect, taking the best result (haven't tried this yet). I would think a 50% increase in hit points would also be reasonable - not enough to make them invulnerable, but enough to balance out some of the swing.

[MacFetus]

I've played a gestalt character as part of a two player group and, following on from what Jal has said, it's extremely swingy. We had no problems with any individual or pairs but as soon as the bad guys outnumbered us, we struggled.

In my experience, gestalt makes a character more flexible, not necessarily more powerful.

My advice would be for you to treat them as though they were non-gestalt and slowly escalate the encounters, rather than the reverse.

[FerinusCarnifexVox]

I have never tried the multiple rounds idea (or the multiple saves), but I can testify for constantly being outnumbered. That seems like a great way to go so that you can be able to hold off several foes at once. It helps maintain the idea that Gestalts are above average people and better at fighting then others, but not to the point where they can hold off an army of mobs that a regular PC of the exact level would instantly die from.

My "solution" usually was to give them a cohort at all times, but if you don't want the extra bookeeping it is understandable. These cohorts usually focus on healing/crowd control to make sure that the main guys never got flat out obliterated. A character able to master two entire class progressions at once could easily attract a squire. I like the idea of two rounds better, just because of the fact you get the most out of your many options.

If neither options seems to appeal to you, perhaps changing the classes can help. Samurai/Fighter and Monk/Ninja have nice synergy, but where are the spells. You need some form of Crowd Control. To be fair this is easier said then done....

I play a Inquisitor/Paladin (Full BAB, Good Fort/Will Saves, and Decent Spell Selection), the nice thing is most of the class abilities are used at the start of the fightor are just on all the time, so that later on I can full-attack. Even for this combo an extra round would do wonders.

[Hito]

I actually quite like the idea of perhaps giving them a 2nd standard action (though I'd likely disallow any usage of that 2nd standard action for an actual movement), as that would allow them to attack twice per round, but how might I reconcile that with the Monks' Flurry of Blows ability?

[LovesTha]

I'd be recommending to them that at least one of them should be having a casting class involved. Ninja / Sorcerer would probably help them a lot, or maybe Samurai / Bard?

The 4 classes as they stand would have a lot of trouble with many common types of encounters even if they were spread across 4 characters.

[MC Templar]

LovesTha wrote:

I'd be recommending to them that at least one of them should be having a casting class involved. Ninja / Sorcerer would probably help them a lot, or maybe Samurai / Bard?

The 4 classes as they stand would have a lot of trouble with many common types of encounters even if they were spread across 4 characters.

I, too, find it odd that there are no casters... you'd think with Gestalt someone would be able to heal after a fight was over.

Maybe monk/cleric of some shadowy/stealthy god that could perform like a ninja, but end up with some spells and Wisdom synergy.