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Quantum Steve wrote:
FerinusCarnifexVox wrote:

I believe that a Paladin/Antipaladin should not be a base class. They are to specific to be the base class. I understand alignment requirements for classes (such as any Lawful, any non-Good, etc.), but having a very specific alignment requirement makes them sound like a Prestige Class to me.

I believe the base class should be something more like a templar (a Full BAB, Good Will Save, Crusader-like Class). A templar would not have casting, but they would have many unique combat abilities to make up for it (think Crusader's Steely Resolve).

They would then get the ability to gain a Prestige Class as a Paladin, Anti-Paladin, or Holy Vindicator, etc. This allows specific holy warriors for all the alignments. The entry would be easier then a normal prestige class (something like Level 5), and would be much like the Prestige Paladin from Unearthed Arcana.

I would be fine with this as long as the Paladin was mechanically different from these other classes and got to keep toys that no other class got.

That was actually my logic behind making them Prestige Classes. It would now justify having a rather specialized class about being Lawful and Good. I beleive base classes should have some breathing room so that many different types of personalities can flourish without being punished. A Prestige Class can be more strict as a character has chosen to go to the next level on their own accord.

The Antipaladin would most likely be similar to the Blackguard, but with some newer features.

I believe that a Paladin/Antipaladin should not be a base class. They are to specific to be the base class. I understand alignment requirements for classes (such as any Lawful, any non-Good, etc.), but having a very specific alignment requirement makes them sound like a Prestige Class to me.

I believe the base class should be something more like a templar (a Full BAB, Good Will Save, Crusader-like Class). A templar would not have casting, but they would have many unique combat abilities to make up for it (think Crusader's Steely Resolve).

They would then get the ability to gain a Prestige Class as a Paladin, Anti-Paladin, or Holy Vindicator, etc. This allows specific holy warriors for all the alignments. The entry would be easier then a normal prestige class (something like Level 5), and would be much like the Prestige Paladin from Unearthed Arcana.

The Holy Vindicator's Channel Energy ability basically tell you to add your Holy Vindicator level to your base classes channel energy ability.

Would this allow you to get more channel attempts as a Paladin?

Stubs McKenzie wrote:
A houserule i would see as more fair might be something like BotNS maneuvers... for every 2 levels in another class you count as 1 level higher for a paladins LoH class feature.

This sounds like a great idea (although the suggestion from the post above you is also sound). It will allow the character to get some form of progression even though he is no longer a straight paladin. One of my players wanted a way to maintain a good amount of channel attempts when going into holy vindicator without rolling a cleric/oracle (for flavor reasons).

P.S. I never knew that the Book of the Nine Swords had manuevers work like that (I never owned the book). That explains why people would do a one level dip of those classes, and makes me understand several builds I've seen on here (mainly Warblade or Crusader 1/Anything).

Let me clarify what I meant. I can see where I could have confused you.

The Lay on Hands number of uses will be 1/2 Caster Level + Charisma Modifier.

This does cause a loss of uses for going straight paladin (2), but it allows classes like Holy Vindicator and the Magical Knack Trait to help keep a Multiclass Paladin close to par with the standard ones (like how Practiced Spellcaster and Prestige Classes post the original classes spells).

I was thinking of making a house rule where the number of uses for lay on hands was determined by the Paladin's Caster Level (as opposed to their Paladin Level).

This would allow players wanting to multiclass/prestige to not lose their lay on hands progression. The main examples of builds that could benefit is the Gunslinger class (with Practiced Spellcaster feat) and the Holy Vindicator (which would be a now a great option due to increased channel attempts).

Would this be a fair house rule to have? I feel like the Paladin would get a small, but helpful, boost from this adjustment.

Your Dungeon Master obviously is trying to show up the rest of the party(as you hinted this is often the case). Its not even a matter of him having a high to hit, it is that the DM appears to want to bend the rules a bit to give him an edge over everyone else.

A DMPC is rarely a good thing for a party. I do recall having a Dungeon Master one time have a rather strong NPC in our party. He played the character well to make sure no one was replaced or outshined by him. It also helped Dungeon Master made him like a cohort for the whole party. This fighter has his own personality and goal, but you could always convince him to do a more specific task (with a relatively easy diplomacy check, or no check if the argument was sound). The main reason we even had this DMPC was because we had lost a couple of people over the course of the campaign and needed to fill our fourth slot.

The best tip I can give for avoiding a serious problem from a DMPC is make sure that the Dungeon Master does not become attached to their NPC in the party. As the attachment grows you will start seeing the Dungeon Master bend rules just to make sure their character survives those tough encounters.

I do like the Ordained Champion, but I think the that the Holy Vindicator was Paizo's attempt at it in Pathfinder. Their concepts are pretty close (use your spells and channel your faith into your weapons). I think the Holy Vindicator is a little more flavored and fleshed out, but it might be what you are looking for. A Channel Smite is an unaligned smite in a way, and the AC can get scary high when you stack Stigmata and Vindicator's Shield (+5 to AC at level 20 all the time, and +15 to AC on the first hit of any encounter).

I think that he should just stick to channelling his spells into his weapon and getting the smites he was already allowed (if I recall right the text said something about a hardcap of 2). A straight conversion should work out fine.

I recently wanted to play the Blackguard prestige class for my campaign and my Dungeon Master told me to find a conversion or make a fair one myself. I came across Scott Gladstein's Blackguard Conversion and it seemed good, but I feel that it missed out on the features that I loved about the Blackguard (Command Undead, Fiendish Servant, etc.).

I'm just starting it now but I wanted some feedback on what features to add based off related Paizo classes (Paladin, Antipaladin, Hellknight).

What I Have So Far

• Base Attack Bonus: +6
• Alignment: Any Evil
• Skills: Knowledge (Religion) 2 ranks, Stealth 5 ranks
• Feats: Cleave, Improved Sunder, Power Attack
• Special: The character must have made peaceful contact with an evil outsider who was summoned by him or someone else.

Hit Die: d10
BAB Progression: Fighter (Full)
Good Saves: Fortitude, Will
Bad Save: Reflex
Smite Progression: Every 3rd level (1,4,7,10)
Sneak Attack Progression: Every 2nd Level (3, 5, 7, 9)

Class Skills
Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (planes) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Stealth (Dex)

Skill Ranks Per Level: 2 + Int modifier.

Spell Progression
1st 0 — — —
2nd 1 — — —
3rd 1 0 — —
4th 1 1 — —
5th 1 1 0 —
6th 1 1 1 —
7th 2 1 1 0
8th 2 1 1 1
9th 2 2 1 1
10th 2 2 2 1

Thought Process for Each Decision:

The Hit Die and BAB progression are converted over from D&D.

The Good Saves and Bad Save are based off a Pathfinder Paladin.

Smite Progression is based off a Pathfinder Paladin.

Sneak Attack Progression has been set to every 2nd level as opposed to D&D's every third level because I wanted it to be able to reach 5d6 if a player went Paladin 10/Blackguard 10. This also makes a Rogue/Blackguard a more viable option as they could now trade 1d6 of Sneak Attack in order to gain more BAB. The stealth ability now has more of a purpose. In the end basically now the Blackguard has a reason to make use of his stealth class skill.

I could have done an easy transfer from D&D 3.5 and replaced Concentration with Spellcraft, but I felt that the Blackguard needed to be more unique from a Paladin.

Craft, Handle Animal, Profession, and Ride are all important utility based skills that allow a Blackguard to make the most of his features.

Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (planes), Knowledge (religion), and Sense Motive are all important social skills that would be vital to any Blackguard. They might go about intimidating their enemies, but their allied outsiders would require diplomacy. The Knowledge (planes) is from their contact with an Outsider and Knowledge (religion) is both from their bound to their past and their newfound hatred of it.

Stealth and Spellcraft are also appropriate choices as a Blackguard has the ability to use Sneak Attack, as well as, a divine resistance to magic spells.

Our table has ruled a way to add more flavor to our games without missing out on our core class capstones. I never got how one had to outright stop their career in order to get a fun build (either by multiclassing several times or pick an interesting Prestige Class). Would a Paladin stop gaining auras and other favors from his Deity just because they decided to become a Battle Herald (to further the cause of the church)? It just never made sense to me.

Step 1 - Assign Background Class (Level 0):
Select a Non-Player Class that explains their upbringing and the transition that changed them from an average citizen to what we see now.

Step 2 - Assign Core Class (Level 1-20):
Select a Core/Base/Alternate Class that will be what you want to play. The background should help compliment it in some way (like an Adept/Cleric, Expert/Rogue, Aristocrat/Inquisitor), or it could be wacky as long as you can explain how it happened.

Step 3 - Assign Prestige Class (Level 10-20):
Select a Prestige Class that has a direct relationship with your Core Class choice. A class with good synergy is always recommended (Battle Cleric/Holy Vindicator), but as long as you can justify it you can be it with a DMs approval.

Final Product:
You end up getting a fun/logical mesh of classes that don't make you much more powerful then a standard character. Any differences in HPs, Skills, and Saves for the Core and Prestige Class should be handled like a Gestalt character. If the Prestige Class would progress the spellcasting of your core class, just ignore it (you are getting the other features for free afterall). You can get a Expert/Wizard/Eldrich Knight, a Commoner/Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple, or any combination!

Example of How This Works - My Character:

I want to play a Chaotic Evil Human that uses profane energy to make himself all-powerful on the battlefield.

I first select the Background Class, A Warrior. This helps explain his motives as he grew up fighting and was already able to handle a blade. This character would of had to simple pick up a blade in the name of a Chaotic Evil church (or descended) and be awarded with a Deity's favor. The actual backstory could be much longer; since you gain HPs, Skills, and Abilities of a basic Warrior, you are mechanically backing their upbring too.

I would then select the Core Class, An Antipaladin. He progress as an Antipaladin thorwing himself into battle again and again for his sinister generals. His deity sees him growing and keeps rewarding him with new spells and abilities. This Antipaladin one day (Level 10 in Games Terms) proves to be a true champion of their cause, and they reward him with the ability to go into a Prestige Class linked to the church.

My final choice would be for the Prestige Class, An Unholy Vindicator. The church begins to teach my character the ways of hurting himself in a way to further allow the profane deity he worships to aid him in his conquest of the world. He would still gain everything an Antipaladin would because he is still continuing his path, he just has a handful of secrets only higher ranking members know in addition.

Any feedback on your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Most of what I would say is already up here. A good rule of thumb I use is to try and see if the act is really evil, or just painfully effective.

Example: You escaped from a prison by killing an elderly guard that has no important bearing on the plot. You lured the man over by telling him stories of your family which you wish to see one last time before you die, and then blugeon him to death with lead pipe. No that may sound bad, but you were going to be put to death for a crime someone else had commited. This person is going to unleash his plan to destroy the city within the hour, you had no choice but to break out and regain your gear and allies as quickly as possible.

Now you might say "You blugeoned an old man to death with a lead pipe that is evil!". No it wasn't evil given the circumstances for such a escape. It was sadly an effective method to obtain your goal (drawing him in to kill him and take the keys).

Axebeard wrote:
Chdmann wrote:
He sounds to methodical to be Chaotic
Chaotic is law vs. chaos, not "capable of planning vs. crazy and/or stupid". I think that methodical, intelligent, and planning make for a much scarier chaotic evil than some guy who runs around stabbing everyone he meets.

Glad you see what I was trying to explain. Sometimes it is that freedom to not be bound by the law that makes a methodical person truely scary. If a character is bound by the law they can eventually use their methodical characteristics to get something done, but all their effort has been trying to justifiy the action and not actually the execution.

Example: A Government decides that all forms of Necromancy should be banned, while Resurrection/Reincarnation are seen gifts from the deities that no warrior should be denied. My Antipaladin sees that Necromancy is a valid form of raising the dead (as long as they are willing and allowed to be intelligent creatures). He deides that he shall pay the council a little visit disguised as a royal guard. After killing everyone in the room, he decides to raise the councilmen as skeletons. The councilmen tell the city how they have seen the errors of there ways and everyone should be converted. My character laughs as he sees the citizens begin to fight the government in fear of their fates. Eventually the citizen will be forced to make peace with the undead legions now constructed by the Antipaladin or die holding onto their belief (my character would make sure all the officers were sentient to prove that Undead can be a willing choice).

What he did was Rational but Cruel. He fought a oppresive law that he felt was flawed/misguided which makes him Chaotic. He also used a more self-indulging and destructive matter to prove his point which makes him Evil.

I should note that my Fiendish servent is an Erinyes. At first my chaotic character might not seem like a good fit, but my character's goal to to "purify" the masses of their false sense of virtues and ideals. He kills only those he believes to be hypocritical or ignorant. He used to be a Paladin, but turned once he learned how much corruption and false causes were in a "Lawful Good" society. An Erinyes, much like my Paladin, sees right through that and only sees what is Lawful from an outsider's perspective (its true nature).

Our party recently died at the hands of a Pit Fiend, but we did manage to kill him. We were rewarded by a deity with being reincarnated in a new body with a low CR template. These new bodies also had the ability to gestalt. The requirements were that the first progression had to be of what you were before (as we were reincarnated), and the second progression had to have some relation to the first.

My Party's Decision:
Player One: Goblin, Noble (Samauri 20//Fighter 20)
Player Two: Elf, Half-Dragon (Ranger 20//Barbarian 20)
Myself: Half-Elf, Half-Fiend (Antipaladin 20// _____ 5, Unholy Vindicator 10, _____ 5)

We do not have any healer, but I can heal myself well due to Unholy Vindicator, and a couple of wands should solve all our needs for noncombat healing. All our characters are able to dish out and take a good deal of damage, but I'm the main target because the Goblin runs around on a horse and the Elf can fly and shoot from a range.

I decided that Sword and Board is the way to go because I can make a scary high AC with the Unholy Vindicator abilities in addition to some good magic armor and a shield. I will be taking the Two-Weapon Fighting and Shield Mastery feat chains in order to dish out enough damage to come near a two-handed fighter. I always value the ability to survive and wear down the opponent over being able to one-shot everyone and in turn die from a single hit.

My character may be Chaotic Evil, but he isn't an idiot. He strikes when the time is right, and there are no witnesses that could escape his grasp. He likes placing himself in positions of power in order to bring these civilizations to the ground. I could easily see him in a more evil based nation of power.

1. What should I put opposite of Paladin to go along with the Unholy Vindicator?
2. Where can my build be improved?
3. What is a good region for my character? Cheliax?

Current Build Structure:

Half-Fiend, Half-Elf / Antipaladin 20, Unholy Vindicator 10
Chaotic Evil, Medium Outsider (Native)

Strength - 22 (+6)
Dexterity - 16 (+3)
Constitution - 20 (+5)
Intelligence - 14 (+2)
Wisdom - 18 (+4)
Charisma - 20 (+5)

Level 4, 8, 12 Bonus: +1 Dexterity
Level 16, 20 Bonus: +1 Strength

Languages: Abyssal, Common, Elven, Sylvan

Feat Selection:
Exotic Weapon Proficieny (Scimitar)
1st Two-Weapon Fighting
3rd Improved Shield Bash
5th Alignment Channel
7th Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
9th Shield Slam
11th Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
13th Shield Master
15th Improved Critical (Scimitar)
17th Bashing Finish
19th Combat Reflexes

calagnar wrote:

My best suggestions:

1: Make sure all the players understand they will have to fill 2 roles min. No exceptions. If you do not follow this rule in a small party it makes things very very hard. The larger the force the more specialized you can be. The smaller the force the more cross role coverage you need.

2: Make sure you understand what you can do with out. Along with what you must have. You can make do with out a full caster(Arcane, or Divine). You must have some one that can heal(The more that can do this the better in a small group). You need ever one to be effective in combat. You want but do not need a party face. You want but do not need some one for traps. You want but do not need a skill focused character(This is almost a need).

My top picks for a 3 person team.
Oracle : Mystery Battle : Party Face, Melee/Range Combat, Divine Casting Support.
Bard : Knowlage Skills, Melee/Range Combat, Party Buffing, Arcane Casting Support.
Ranger(XX)/Rogue(2) : Melee/Range Combat, Skills Traps/Outdoor,

I think this group could definently work. I had a hard time convincing everyone in my group to go multiclass (someone in my group tried to house rule it so I couldn't multiclass before level 5). I convinced the Dungeon Master to point out the holes in our group and TPK us with it. To be fair, it wasn't that hard to find the giant gap.

My Original Group:
Paladin (Me): Tanking, Healing, Party Face, Knowledge
Ranger: Ranged and Scouting
Gunslinger Sniper: Ranged and Scouting

The Gunslinger shot bullets, while the Ranger kept shooting arrows. All a mob had to do was seperate me from the group and then kill off them. It didn't help they had added ranged and other enchantments to have them as far away as possible from me in combat. I had my character fight his way there as they died. After they hit the floor, I used my ring to teleport away (I wasn't going to use it to save them, I was making a point about the lack of synergy).

Dud Muffin wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
Have you considered Gestalt characters? That would allow you all to add more strings to your bows without giving up on concepts.
I'm not familiar with gestalt characters? Any chance you can give me a quick down and dirty on what they're about?

Dabbler gave a good description of how it works. I'd like to mention to you that the way you present it to the group is important.

You can't go in saying "Hey look we can just play two characters in one", because in reality you are not. You have the better/unique parts of each skill, but you still are limited in the body of one person. You can't take much more damage or spells then an average Player Character, and you do not get additional actions during your turn. You basically have access to more options each round. This will help fill the gaps in your party. I find it easier then everyone grabbing a cohort and/or second character (this goes for both synergy and paperwork).

notabot wrote:
Bard. Non combatant monsters with CHA should be bards.

Not quite sure if they are "Non Combatant Monsters" but a bard would be a good option because of their charisma. They perfer to be in the thick of battle though, so maybe a Succubus would be a better bard.

I think the Tomes of Battle was seen as overpowered just because they were better then the core fighters. Now that the Fighter and Paladin were given some needed improvements, these melee fighters don't seem to have a clear advantage.

I basically threw out all the Prestige Classes and allowed the Core Classes, but I made the Warblade's hit dice a d10. Most the Prestige Classes in the Suppliments were either poorly thought out, or poorly executed.

I was wondering if there was any additional features anyone added to the core classes. I kind of hope Paizo makes a revision of these classes, so we could get a few additions. These classes are good overall, but still have their dead levels (which is one thing Paizo helped cure in Pathfinder).

Thac20 wrote:
I think the Sleep hex shouldn't be used againsta a single opponent since it can make what was to be a big fight anti-climactic. I don't see a problem with using it on one of several opponents.

This. The Witch class is meant for debuffing and crowd control. When there is a BBEG debuff him all you want, when there is a crowd use all the sleep/save-or-suck spells you please. When you start confusing it and use crowd control on a single target it can get less fun for your allies.

Sorry I'm late for the party. I would like to see some more people put in their input, as I want to add some classes to my Erinyes.

Midnight_Angel wrote:

So, what do you think would be in-style, sensible (and effective) classes for, say, an Erinyes?

Inquisitor? (appears effective, and has precedence, after all...)
Hellknight? (if so, which order would come to mind?)
Cleric? (possibly going Unholy Vindicator?)

Inquisitor: Best Base Class Choice. A Ranger might be better at ranged damage, but the Inquisitor is also great at ranged damage with their Judgement and Bane abilities. If there is one thing that Erinyes likes, it is judgement upon those they are about to kill.

Hellknight: Best Prestige Class Choice. The hardest thing would to have an Erinyes to kill a Lawful Evil creature in order to become a member, but once that is past the rest makes sense. The Infernal Armor will at first restrict her movement, but make it Mithrial and at the later levels it has a max dexterity of 5 (which is pretty go for +9 armor). All the class abilities is about fighting Chaotic and Unlawful acts, which is what the Erinyes is about.

Cleric/Unholy Vindicator: This is what you want if you want that crazy factor for your Erinyes. She is inflicting damage upon herself, so that you in turn will face a gruesome end. Although not every creature is willing to do this, an Erinyes would. They are expert torturers, so it would be likely that they could inflict the appropiate scars.


Personally when I thought of an Erinyes with class levels, I went to the Sin Eater Inquisitor. They replace their domain and the ability to get a Teamwork feat at level 6 in exchange for literally eating their opponents souls for health. The opponent cannot be revived after this, and they cannot be raised as an undead or the like. This is what I think and Erinyes is about, torment before and after death. They have to take part in the combat that killed the person in order to eat their soul, but in many cases they torture their opponents to death (so its not like they weren't doing any damage to them).

Straight Ranger/Fighter would definently be the most mechanically/straightfoward method of leveling up the Erinyes.

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Couldn't he just throw a few undead or constructs at the witch, and allow him to still shine once in a while?

Avoid random houserules.

That was exactly what I was thinking for big muscle fights. Anyone that your GM doesn't want to just fall over and derail the campaign should be immune too. A Witch can still shine, just not every fight. One of my friends used to play an Illusionist Wizard that casted nothing but Save or Die spells on the big bosses. Eventually my DM got really mad at him, so I suggested that he started gearing certain encounters to be immune to Illusion spells.

If the player is willing to switch characters, then that might be your best bet. If you have excessive rules to nerf their character they will have less fun then the other players (since they are not restricted, and stuck in that character). The character will have the ability to play something new and not feel like they will be restricted.

Another option is to make the bosses and important NPCs immune to sleep. You could have the higher ranked officers in your campaign all be Elves and/or Half-Elves. A couple of intelligent undead mutants for the big muscle fights, and you have yourself a fair fight for the rest of the group. You witch will still be able mess with the grunts (much like the Wizard in my groups polymorphs them for fun) and feel like they are powerful, but now they just know that there are people powerful enough to be showered in magic powder and not just fall over.

I rolled a Half-Fiend Barbarian that like using nothing but his fist. My Dungeon Master was trying to introduce an important NPC by mentioning a robed man in the trees by the cave we were suppose to go into. I decided I shall fly above him and land right on top of him and grapple him for the information I need. I roll a natural 20, then another one, then another one. He suffocated right then and there, and my DM was not to pleased.

I then went into town to identify the body, to find out that he was some crazy guy that talked about defending the town from the threat inside the cave. Turns out he was a wizard keeping a Dragon from running loose on the citizens. My DM wanted him to send us on the task of finishing what he could not (actually killing the dragon not just keeping her trapped within the limits of the cave). The dragon then proceeded to just rape everything in the city as spells holding back the dragons were now gone. We went into the cave and stole the loot while the dragon was out exacting its revenge.


Another time during a fight with the Pit Fiend two of the Player's characters were yelling at eachother for doing such a poor job hurting the creature. I used chains to grapple both and fly into the air. I tell each of the characters to roll a diplomacy check to convince me not to kill them. Our Rogue succeds, while our Wizard fails. I release the Rogue and he falls to the ground, mostly unharmed. I then perceed to fly as high as I can and take the Wizards spell component pouch, and I use some potions and explosives to ensure that it will blow. I then perceed to throw the Wizard into the Pit Fiend destroying them both. My group now longer argues over who is rolling poorly and bringing the group down.

Our group has recently reached level 20, and we discussed what we would do afterwards. The group decided it would be fun to continue on with these current characters(many Outsiders were still a challenge to us). The hard part was trying to figure out a good way to progress the characters (as we knew that after you hit 20 in a class, there was not much room left to expand). We didn't want to go the Epic Level Guide that D&D 3.5 tried giving, so we decided to try something simplier.

Level 1-20: You take your class all the way (as most PrC are for flavor)

Level 21-30: You take a Prestige Class directly relating to the class

Basically you would take any 10 level PrC class up to full, this way we got the fun features of the PrC that we didn't choose before because we were trying to reach our capstone ability.

Level 30: Recieve a template relating directly to your PC and Prc

This would act as another capstone bonus (as a lot of the PrC had little incentive to take the full way).

Level 30+: That will be were scaling up becomes hard (as some characters in the Beastiary have higher CRs then 20, only a few have them over 30 with appropiate templates).

Example: Lets say I took a Paladin for 20 levels, I then took a Holy Vindicator for 10 levels afterwards. When I hit level 30 I got the Half-Celestial template as I was now a holy warrior as strong as angels. At this point only the Dukes of Hell and mobs of outsiders could put a mark in these characters.

Our next campaign is going to be high-powered. We are all going to be able to Gestalt, Get a Cohort, and High Stats. I wasn't able to make the first session to playtest the creations, but I heard what they have.

Player One:
He is playing a Noble-Born Goblin that is a Gestalt (Samurai/Fighter) that specializes in nothing but critical hits. He has the leadership feat in order to get a Bugbear that basically has a super CMD to keep his opponents helpless. Coup de Grace happens almost all the time.

Player Two:
He is playing a normal Elf. He is Gestalted in Ranger/Barbarian and is basically a beast at thrown weapons. His cohort is a Dragon (yes we allowed a Dragon).

Player Three:
He is a Gunslinger/Rogue that has the ability to evade and take down anything that trys to fight him one on one. He is a Half-Fiend that took the Shadow Demon as his cohort.

I was going to play a straight Battle Cleric... but I realized I might need a little more firepower. I decided to try and go sheild and sword and take the feats to sheild mastery. I'm basically a two-weapon fighter without the penalties.

My new build idea is an Antipaladin 20// Unholy Vindicator* 10. I will have the opt out of my first 10 levels of gestalt in order to become a Half-Fiend, Graveknight. I will pick the Erinyes as my fiendish servant (and I will not pick a Cohort, as the Antipaladin class provides one). A fiendish servant does not level, so I'm purposly weakening my cohort to the account for the fact I took 2 templates.

*Note: If you are wondering what an Unholy Vindicator is, replace every word that says Sacred with Profane. Faith Healing instead maxes out Inflict spells.

I think it is a matter of what they are purchasing there. I assume many magical items are on sale (which makes them have quite a lot). I have no idea what standard you should go by. My guess it make a table of gems (Minor being cheaper, Major being more expensive) and have theif steal a couple (based off her degrees of success). I think it makes more sense for them getting away with stealing a handful of gems, then a wagon of gold coins. I think anything over 10,000g per person would be ridiculous, but mattering on the level of the PC and the NPCs it might not be that crazy. A level 5 NPC would only be buying a +1 or +2 item, while a level 10 NPC might be getting himself a +3 vorpal weapon (at their master's expense).

I can't believe I just found this guide... I'm going to post a build off the top of my head using this method to see if I understand it.

Dark Ones Racial Traits
Dark Ones are defined by their class levels—they do not possess racial Hit Dice. All dark ones have the following racial traits.

Base Speed 40ft (+4), Darkvision 60ft (+2)
+2 Dexterity, -2 Strength, +2 Intelligence, –2 Charisma (-4)
Ranged Touch Attack that deals 1d6/2HD Shadow Damage, every 1d4 rounds (+8)
Automatic Languages: Dark Folk, Undercommon (0)
Bonus Languages: Abyssal, Common, Infernal, Sylvan (0)
Favored Class: Rogue (0)

I'd like to thank you for asking this question. As I now know that Weapon Finesse can be added to touch attacks.

Celestial Pegasus wrote:

Fernius, that's an interesting view regarding the burning vs. knifing. Can I offer a possible argument against it, though? I would suggest a PC could feel silent knifings would draw less attention than a burning building would, and used fire as 'Plan B' only once discovered already.

That would make it a tactical or strategical choice, rather than a specific 'delights in killing' one. I am, admittedly, tossing it up as a theoretical since I can't speak for the exact PC in question.

I can see your argument as well. If feel since he was already in disguise, he could have easily just continued on his way. He instead chooses to kill the guards, and burned down the whole thing when it went south. Now I admit he might have done it because he didn't want to be pursued. I think hearing the PCs thoughts on each action might easily clear up this.

Funny Note: Yesterday was my first time playing Call of Cthulu. A bunch of Cultists were sacrificing a girl on an altar in an attempt to bring upon an Avatar of some Elder God. I decided since the girl was as good as dead (as 2 people could not gun down 8 in time to get her down), I decided the most logical thing was have each of us bar the entrances (front and back) and just burn the place to the ground. Since it was a library and my friend's character liked to smoke, it was quite easy to accomplish. Arson can be fun!

I can't judge a man for burning down a building to even the odds, as I did it just yesterday.

I'm not sure where to place these actions, but Chaotic Evil is definently not where he is at. There are about 4 types of Chaotic Evil I've encountered, and he is not any of them.

Overlord of Destruction - He isn't trying to raise a post-apocalyptic hellscape where pain is know to the masses.

Chaotic Stupid - He didn't break out and go burn alive any orphans/babies "just cause".

Fallen Angel - He didn't quickly become debased to the point he was the exact opposite of what he started as (Antipaladin, Ur-Priest, etc.)

The Purifier - He didn't go around cleansing people of their foolish thoughts and ideals. Think of a Paladin, but instead the "heretics" are those that DID conform with the viewpoints of a good Deity.

My vote would go to Neutral Evil, because he decided to slit the guards throats and then burn down barracks when he saw them all waking up. I feel that a True Neutral person would just simply burn down the place to begin with (he must have took some zeal in slitting their throats, otherwise he wouldn't have bothered). Yes I know he burned it down because they were waking up, which means he had hoped to slit them all individually

The torture was obviously not an evil act, as it had a purpose of helping him survive. From the description there is no obvious intent to torture the NPC for fun, if he hadn't asked for information then it would have been different.

I recently started playing a Graveknight Antipaladin and am starting to become comfortable with a Chaotic Evil-type character. Most people at my table assumed it meant I would be Chaotic Stupid (as in "LOL So Random, I Roll to Kill a Puppy!"). I decided to play a character that is just plain selfish and ruthless, as he figures the rest of the group is just an means to an end. It is almost like I'm playing a Lawful Evil character, but with the ability to kill an annoying NPC in the middle of a town without a second thought (I learned if you drop a couple guards afterwards, the town just learns to keep their distance).

I'm thinking I can enchant the claws since they are part of the gauntlets, but community input might solve these questions.

I copied and pasted this from the PRD to make the poster's life easier:

"This plate armor is fashioned to make the wearer appear to be a demon. The helmet is shaped to look like a horned demon head, and its wearer looks out of the open, tooth-filled mouth. This +4 full plate allows the wearer to make claw attacks that deal 1d10 points of damage, strike as +1 weapons, and afflict the target as if she had been struck by a contagion spell (Fortitude DC 14 negates). Use of contagion requires a normal melee attack with the claws. The “claws” are built into the armor's vambraces and gauntlets, and cannot be disarmed.

A suit of demon armor is infused with evil, and as a result it bestows one negative level on any nonevil creature wearing it. This negative level persists as long as the armor is worn and disappears when the armor is removed. The negative level cannot be overcome in any way (including restoration spells) while the armor is worn."

I see that these weapons are deal 1d10 and strike as +1 weapons. In addition they can inflict a disease and they can get pass magic-based Damage Reduction.

I have some questions about how exactly they are used though.

1. Can they be used as Primary or Secondary weapons?

2. Can these claws be upgraded together/seperatly? They are built into the "gauntlets" so does that mean I can upgrade them as I would a spiked gauntlet?

3. Are these weapons considered able to get past Damage Reduction Evil, because "A suit of demon armor is infused with evil"?

4. How do they exactly work in a Full-Attack (I'm planning on using Two-Weapon Fighting)? I never had a grasp exactly how "unarmed" full-attacks were done (I figured Monks could hit with either hand that struck their fancy, as long as it was within their limit).

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If you a level 1 commoner to be able to kill you at anytime in the game, you are playing the wrong type of game. A level 5 character is strong enough to become a recognized figure in a nation. NPCs in nations over level 10 are very rare; those around 10 are Champions, Head Priests, and Archmages. The only things that will challenge your party are creatures/adventurers that are designed to challenge your party...

If you want the ability to have a handful notmal people take out your adventuring group using nothing but guns check out "Call of Cthulu". You never gain hitpoints (only gain more skills/money) and throughout the entire game the same Average Joe could kill you. The creatures are strong enough to defeat hundreds of people in a firefight, and the Zealots will always be better then you (they get magic and better gear).

In short, the PC armor is not too high... your competence as a Dungeon Master is too low. Not to sound harsh, but you seem unable to grasp the most basic concepts of the game. The reason you are an adventurer in the first place is because even at Level 1, you are better then most NPCs in your town. You have the skills and drive to accomplish task they can not. You go out to fight monsters and super-powered humans because you and your friends are one of the few people that can... Take that away and you aren't an adventurer, you are as good as the guys you want them so badly to be damaged by...

I want to say once again I'm not trying to sound too harsh, I just want you to understand. If you can't accept the way character progress, it is best you find a game with progression that matches your mindset. You can't be able destroy citadels and kill the Dukes of Hell if you can't take a shell or two.

I hope that they will announce when they will be releasing the Epic Rules late this year. I know that the Advanced Race Guide is coming up, but hopefully this is one of their next projects.

Our group plans is currently trying to discuss what we do once we reach the capstone ability. Our thoughts as of now is that we will pick a Prestige Class that last 10 levels and has a direct relation with the Base Class. This is to show how the characters have stepped onto the next level in their training(although in reality Prestige Classes aren't always better then Base classes). When we reach Level 30 and the Prestige Class reachs its end, we will add a new "Capstone Template".

An example of this would be a Fighter-Based Cleric that decides to take Holy Vindicator as his Prestige Class. Since he is now a master of his body and faith, his reward is the Half-Celestial Template at level 30.

This process can be repeated again and again, but after Level 30 it would be hard to accurately scale up encounters. This is where the Epic Rules come in, to accurately scale up the system as a whole. I'll wait patiently for however long it takes, and rejoice when it comes to my door.

I'm assuming you are a player for both of these groups correct? A Dungeon Master that was running the same adventure twice makes it easier on their workload (plus an interesting way to see how different groups react to the same scenario).

If you are a player, well like Stubs said its all avoiding to over/under metagame. Sure you know that NPC X is the main villian and not NPC Y, but that doesn't mean you sit around and wait for everyone to figure it out as he tears them apart. I think since you know how the story advances, as long as you try a different angle that doesn't give to much away to the other players you have found a good way to avoid metagmaing. Approaching differently then your party did in the other game might even lead to some surprises for you.

I'd talk it over with whatever DM you play the Adventure Path with second to see if he is okay with you already knowing whats in store. They can take this information and either change adventure paths or find some way to change the storyline enough where everyone is now back in the dark (if the find it easier just to drop you and not put in any additional effort, they weren't worth anyways).

Nicos wrote:
You can not have con modifier, you are an undead.

I know that, my stats used to be that when he was alive. I only included it because it showed how much my Con modifier for hitpoints would have been before I turned undead (as the template does not have you recalculate those rolls). I have a good amount of hit points for my level as the +5 would strongly imply.

blackbloodtroll wrote:
What are your feats/stats?

Str 26

Dex 14
Con 20
Int 14
Wis 16
Cha 20

I have feats based mainly in Sword and Board. My DM will allow me to switch which weapons my Weapon Focus and Shield Focus go to because I lost my armor (and have time to train as I recruit a new party). I have Power Attack, Vital Strike, Devasting Strike. My character sheet is not with me, so I can't tell you anything to specific.

I am lacking in the ranged department so a ring that casts a good destuctive spell could do wonders. I also will need a sheild, but instead of a quickdraw shield I might get one with a cool ability.

My character recently bit the dust after finishing off a Pit Fiend. Luckily due to the situation and the will for my character to continue on (my guy had to hold his own for 10 rounds after the team TPK'd), he returned as a graveknight.

He awoke to find himself with nothing but his demon armor, because imps had stolen the rest of his gear (this was to prevent my character / their new characters from taking all their stuff, since they we going to make new characters). My character then took a gem from the Fiend worth exactly 55,000g so I could buy new gear to accomidate this new form.

So this leaves me with my questions... What should I buy? My Demon Armor is already great where it is now (+4 Fullplate with Natural Weapons), so I need to focus on getting a decent weapon and gear. I want these items to help strike fear in my opponents by making my character seem invincible visually (mechanically would be nice, but gamebreaking).

Perhaps I can improve the weapons on my armor (do they get the +4 to hit?). I'm also thinking of giving myself a ring that can do some damage. I should point out I have Craft Arms and Armor so I get the reduction in price for items.

ekibus wrote:
Really don't think it is a mmo syndrome. I've been playing since the 90's and haven't really played mmo's until recently. A party always had a healer and if not we were doomed. That's not really new. Pathfinder saying you don't need one is kind of new to me

A party always need healing, but not a dedicated healer. The MMOs only helped push the idea that a player should put 100% of their resources into a single place. There is nothing wrong with becoming a Master of a field, but if you become too specialized you are too dependant on others doing the rest of the job. I could know ever type of cooking ingredient in the world, but unless I know how to actually cook I am reliant on someone else doing it for me (I at the time being nothing better then an ingredient list). A healthy investment in surrounding fields can go a long way.

Sub_Zero wrote:

Now that I think back on my experiences with the group it has the DM has always played the NPC as slightly retarded. Party deaths were always kept to a minimum, and whenever we ran into a sticky situation the DM always baled us out. Ironically the only deaths that I remember are back when I was playing a cleric myself, and it was always me that died.

It comes down to the DM always having creatures pile up on the fighter and cleric, ignoring the rogue and wizard except for the occasional shot taken by a bow user. Not to mention I rarely seem them use the monsters special abilities. (We've fought 2 dragons, and they both stayed grounded the whole fight)

It was actually treamonks guide that inspired me to even try making an arcane caster class. Till now the guy who normally plays them focused on magic missle, melfs acid arrow, and fireball pretty much exclusively. I never realized the versatility of a wizard until quite recently.

Upon reading what I've wrote I will say it's not as bad as it reads, but it definitely doesn't sound like some of the more interesting groups where PC death is an actual threat.

Maybe he is afraid to have a TPK (everyone dies) and have everyone mad at him. I understand it is hard to scale a fight to possbility kill a couple, but not all players. I learned that when you eliminate the chance of death from a situation all together players begin to become more reckless. Just the other day I decided to have a Pit Fiend kill my entire party because they had it in their head they could crush anything at level 8. They had a chance to run away and another to play tactically, both of which they failed. I allowed them to start again at level 8, but they lost some good gear and are much more careful (basically a NPC revived them using their best gear as funding).

Mojorat wrote:

1) You would use the better of what the Graveknight or Half Fiend gives you, they wont stack.

2)I think the Templates NA bonus would go on top of the half fiend template. But.. i am honestly not sure.

3) You will retain the ability to fly unless the new template says you cannot.

4) I have no idea, even for bad guys becoming undead is pretty horrific. You probly just need to decide if your will to live or in this case not live outways that.

The one downside to this though is you will no longer go into negative hps if it happens, you will just die instantly.. and not sure you can be raised after that.

Thank you for your help, I think I found the answers to my problems.

1) Although these don't stack, the other abilities greatly outway a couple of abilities not stacking. Half-Fiend provides a variety of fun spells, while the Graveknight adds some good debuffs and damage additions.

2) The Graveknight is wearing a +1 Full Plate in the Beastiary, I was thinking that they were wearing that Hellknight armor (Order of the Crux guys are all Gravekngihts), so basically this question is void.

3) I looked at the Graveknight template, I can fly.

4) Yes I will do it, mainly because I think it is awesome. I can help progress the plot because I literally brought myself back together just because I had won and still died. As it turns out or Wizard failed to teleport properly (I didn't realize there was a chance of failure) so he never got to safety. So it was literally a TPK, one I walked away from.

Sub_Zero wrote:
you need a fighter, cleric, mage, and rogue and that's it kinda party.

So this is definently about your players worrying about the party's synergy. What I said earlier about work, but if they remain in this mindset you should explain why a party used to be composed of these characters. These four characters used to be the almost mandatory group because they complimented eachother to the point where there was no lacking departments in the group.


This is the original roles of party members:

- Primary Melee Damage
- Able to soak up damage, and distract opponents

- Secondary Ranged/Melee Damage
- Variety of healing and buffing spells
- Diplomacy Expert to avoid certain situations

- Primary Ranged Damage
- Variety of helpful utility spells

- Primary Tactical Damage (flanking, attacks of opportunity, etc.)
- Stealth Expert to avoid certain situations
- Variety of helpful skills/abilities to insure group survivability


Your party easily covers all of these categories.

Fighter covers the fighter requirements, for obvious reasons

Bard and Gunslinger together cover the requirements of rogue and cleric

Wizards cover the mage requirements, for obvious reasons

The Barbarian is the 5th wheel on a standard 4 party system, but that is not a bad thing. He adds additional damage and tanking abilities that help keep the party alive. He can help protect any lower armored characters that the Fighter can not reach. I'd recommend having one guard the Wizard, while the other watches over the Bard and Gunslinger. Bards and Gunslingers can usually hold their own, but it is always good to keep an eye on any lower armored ally.

I think the Dungeon Master is either worried about the plot or synergy of the group, but I see no reason why he should be.

An "undead heavy campagin" doesn't require help from a divine caster. If the Dungeon Master is finding it hard to jusitify how to progress the plot (I know you said it wasn't plot related, but I think it might partially be) maybe you should help set up how/why the party is combating this force of undead. An NPC Divine Caster would easily have the motive and cash to hire a group of adventurers to wipe out a couple of zombies on the other side of town, and then happily hire them to fight stronger opponents as they begin to prove their worth.

Honestly divine users are my favorite, but I see no reason why a party can not survive without them. Healing can easily be substituted with a couple of wands (and the Wizard should have Use Magic Device). If you party needs to be constantly healed (to the point were someone has to take their standard action each round to heal) in combat something is wrong. The opponents you are facing are either crushing you tactically, or is a BBEG that is designed to knock you down anyways (so the amount healed would likely be dropped again the next round).

When I play a Divine Caster, I'm playing a diplomatic archer/fighter that has the bonus of being able to heal/buff himself in a pinch. If you merely are a healbot, you serve no purpose to better the group. It is a possiblity that you can convince your DM that it is more of a liability then an asset to have a dedicated healer. The wands/potions approach allows the remaining party member to hold up when one has fallen, while if they do not have these items and the healbot fails a reflex/fortitude save (they tend to do that from time to time) you are now all in trouble.

If the Dungeon Master believes a Cleric is needed for buffing the party, merely point out that a Bard has strong buffs. The Wizard and Bard cover a variety of spells already, so a Cleric isn't needed to fill in any major gaps in your party.

Your synergy seems fine to me, and you should stress that. Since you are familiar with Treantmonk's Guide to Being God you might recognize this portion from the D&D 3.5 version:

"Why isn't the Healer useful in combat? Good question. There are two ways you can live your "pretend" life - reactively or proactively. God will alter reality to prevent damage, a healer will try to do "damage control" (pun intended) after the damage has been taken. Simple truth: The mechanics of the game make preventing damage more efficient then healing damage after the fact. That's not to say a well placed "Heal" or even "CLW" never has use in combat - but if you're doing your job - it should never be required as a primary role."

Since you have the means to take and prevent damage, there is no use for the Cleric in combat. This goes back to my point about him being more of a liability then an asset, why fight encounters designed for 5 men if one of them won't be doing damage. You would be better off playing without the healbot player and just having encounter be scaled down one person. If he returns to a Barbarian he is now again a large asset to the group (he can soak up decent damage and dish it out in turn).

Choon wrote:
One of the few downsides is that being a Graveknight is really hard to hide, so be ware of mobs with torches and pitchforks.

15 Ranks of Disguise + 8 Charisma Modifier + 3 In-Class + 10 Disguise Kit = Anyone that could see through my disguise is probably my intended target, therefore I no longer need it as I have arrived to my destination.

I understand your concern, as a mob of people tend to slow down the progress of whatever quest your currently on (unless it was to piss off the entire town at once). I've got it covered.

My Half-Fiend Anti-Paladin recently died from a poison effect after dealing the finishing blow to a Horned Devil. The rest of the group all were dead at that point (besides the Wizard... dam teleport), so reviving was not an option. My DM, however, thought that I did a good job holding off the devil by myself (as the Cleric dropped in Round 2, and the Fighter shortly afterwards). As a reward he wants to make my character a Graveknight. Need some help constructing the character, and I have a couple questions how these additions work with Half-Fiend.

Quick Questions about the Graveknight with a Half-Fiend Template
1. Does Damage Reduction, Spell Resistance, and other like abilities stack?

2. Does my armor become the Graveknight armor that is in the 3rd Beastiary?

3. The Graveknight describes the body as having a "husk of desiccated flesh and scarred bone locked within", so would that mean I could fly anymore?

4. Should I take this? My DM stated that I could not take the Leadership feat (my 3 allies will), but I can use the undead controlling ability (so grab a Skeletal Champion?). It seems fair enough because my stats would become much higher then my allies (the Half-Fiend template alone gave me a small edge).

Cheapy wrote:

A paladin wouldn't try to deceive people into thinking they were an arcane caster.

Not deceiving is one of the main things about them.

I forgot to mention it is an Anti-Paladin, that should clear things up.

Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Cheapy wrote:

A paladin wouldn't try to deceive people into thinking they were an arcane caster.

Not deceiving is one of the main things about them.

He only does it for the 50% of time that he's an inquisitor.

I think your response beats mine.

Thanks, a bunch of wands and the ring to use a reasonable amount of spells per day should be sufficent. I'll probably only have Disguise Self and Magic Aura on the ring. I don't want people questioning why I have so many wands that relate to illusion. The magic missle and mage armor are commonly found as wands, so they might judge me more for NOT having them.

I now have a new question, this one is just for kicks.

FerinusCarnifexVox wrote:

Is it possible to add on additional magic properties to rings.

Ring of Force Shield costs 8,500g, so can I just add 16,200g to get it to cast Magic Missle on-command?

Thinking of a funny combo of the following:

1. Deactivate Shield [Free Action]
2. Cast Magic Missle [Standard Action]
3. Activate Shield [Free Action]

So I can just lob missles from a distance when needed (I'm strickly melee, so lauching 5 auto-hit 1d4+1 missles a turn isn't a bad way to put some damage up in ranged encounters). I also like the idea of making myself in the way a master of force damage.

This would make most incoporals cringe to fight me. Ghost Touch? How about I just put my sword down and kill you anyways? (Note: I'm assuming that all Force Damage harms incoporals, which I believe it does).

As an additional question I'm interested in knowing how many force related spells are available to put in a ring.

I'm playing a Gestalted Paladin//Inquisitor in my current game, and for kicks I wanted to see if I could make myself appear as if I was an arcane caster. I wanted it to be convincing with me looking, casting, and acting like a Wizard. I decided to create a magic ring that will allow me to do this. The only problem is I've never attempted this before so I don't know how it works. This is where I'm hoping you guys will come in.

Some questions I have:
1. Does the character wielding the item need to have Arcane Casting levels (I hope the answer is no...)? If they do is there anyway of getting around this so I can do my idea?

2. Does the entire ring have to have the same caster level, or does it vary per spell?

3. Does Use-activiated/Continous apply to damage spells? If so, does it mean the item basically becomes an At-Will caster?


Lets start with the basics:
I'm assuming the Caster Level is the same for the entire ring.

1. Continous - Disguise Self (To Appear like a Wizard)
SL 1 x CL 9 x 2000 x 1.5 (Extend Duration Cost)

2. At Will - Magic Missle (To Attack like a Wizard)
SL 1 x CL 9 x 2000

3. Continous - Mage Armor (To Defend like a Wizard)
SL 1 x CL 9 x 2000 x 1 (Standard Duration Cost?)

4. Continous - Magic Aura
SL 1 x CL 9 x 2000 x 0.5 (Entire Day Reducation)

Total Cost: 63,000g

I might have done to much or to little, which is why I need help to see if it will accomplish the task.


Is it possible to add on additional magic properties to rings.

Ring of Force Shield costs 8,500g, so can I just add 16,200g to get it to cast Magic Missle on-command?

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