I'm helping a friend create a BBEG(s) for his campaign, and one of my ideas was to create a Ranger with an "animal companion" that is really a Synthesist Summoner. By RAW, is it possible for an Eidolon to look like, say, a very large aligator?
Per the Pathfinder SRD, "The eidolon’s physical appearance is up to the summoner, but it always appears as some sort of fantastical creature. This control is not fine enough to make the eidolon appear like a specific creature. The eidolon also bears a glowing rune that is identical to a rune that appears on the summoner’s forehead as long as the eidolon is summoned."
When I first read this, I thought that this refered to the Eidolon not being able to take the form of a specific individual, i.e. the Eidolon can look human-ish, but can't immitate the town mayor. Upon, re-reading it, it seems to indicate that the Eidolon cannot look like a speficic species, like an aligator. I also am confused, since the Eidolon Models section in Ultimate Magic indicates that and Eidolon can look like ordinary animals, like sharks and vermin.
My plan was to give the PCs Knowledge(Nature), Knowledge(Arcane), and Knowledge(the Planes) checks to be able to recognize that although it looks like an abnormally large aligator, it is actually something else.
DC10 Nature would indicate its not really an animal. DC 15 Nature, Arcane, and the Planes would indicate that its not from the material plane. DC 20 the Planes would indicate its an Eidolon.
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Synthesist does not work like that:
Instead of appearing as a separate creature next to the summoner, the eidolon appears around the synthesist, so that the synthesist seems to be inside a translucent image of his eidolon.
But in general, eidolons are supposed to be clearly distinguishable from the real creatures.
It may have the overall appearance of, say, a tiger, in that it has four legs, a tigerish head, a tail and stripes, but it's off and clearly told apart. And the big glowing rune is a definite telltale sign that it's a summoned outsider.
It can look like something, just not specific, and not mundane. They are attempting not ensure it doesn't look common, so give it some fantastical flair. Size can be a separating factor, sure, but the safest route would be to give it some off-colored racing striped scales, off-colored eyes for the species, teeth that don't look exactly right, two tails, six legs, etc. or something that distinctly sets it apart from the common alligator.
Think of it like an aasimar or tiefling version of an aligator, all the parts are there, but it's a planar creature and there's some extra stuff there to show for it.
You are going to have a big problem if you are a Synthesist Summoner though. It specifically states that the Eidolon looks translucent and ghostly and surrounds you like translucent living armor, so you can't hide the fact that you are merged at the time with this archetype.
The line you quoted is not fluff, so it must be some sort of fantastical creature that doesn't resemble too closely other creatures.
The line about the synthesist's "eidolon" just being a faint outline is not fluff either, so it's always obvious there's someone in the "eidolon".
You are going to have a big problem if you are a Synthesist Summoner though. It specifically states that the Eidolon looks translucent and ghostly and surrounds you like translucent living armor, so you can't hide the fact that you are merged at the time with this archetype.
Darn. I missed that bit. That totally kills the fluff and feeling that I wanted.
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These players tend to meta-game, and know the Bestiaries back-to-front. They would almost always deem a Ranger animal companion to not be a threat, since they know its relatively weak. I wanted part of the challenge of the encounter to be figuring out what they were fighting, and if they meta-gamed that the very large and unnatural looking 'gator wasn't a threat, they would be setting themselves up for some problems.
I guess I could have a non-Synthesist Summoner hidding invisible nearby or using Bonded Senses from a distance. Maybe a Synthesist Summoner with a Silent Image placed on it?
Any suggestions?
Use a hat of disguise it will work for what your looking to do.
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Any suggestions?
Use a monster from here. Or Here. Or maybe here. You'll definitely find something to use in that last one.
What do you do when the players know the Paizo bestiaries front to back? You use other bestiaries :D
Use a hat of disguise it will work for what your looking to do.
Oh, I like this.
Now, follow up rules questions:
1) To disguise the Fused Eidolon, can the summoner wear the hat inside the no-longer-translucent Eidolon, or does the Eidolon have to?
2) Does getting bitten by the Eidolon/Aligator count as "interacting" with it to get a disbelief will save?
3) Would an Eidolon wearing a hat of disguise look something like this?
If the hat of disguise would affect the translucent outline, then being bitten would most assuredly count as interacting.
Also remember that the rune will still be visible though.
If the hat of disguise would affect the translucent outline, then being bitten would most assuredly count as interacting.
Also remember that the rune will still be visible though.
Not if covered by the hat. The disguise generated by the hat is magical, but the hat itself is a mundane cloth and leather to cover the rune. Right?
They would almost always deem a Ranger animal companion to not be a threat, since they know its relatively weak.
Boon Companion can take care of that. :)
Well if you are attempting to convince your party that this is a ranger animal companion, I would recommend just being a regular Summoner, and trick out your guy in rangery looking stuff. It's not hard to look like one since you can wear light armor.
As far as the creature itself, yeah hat of disguise will help, or just wrap up the glowing rune with some leather straps, something resembling a horse's bridle. I'd throw them off by labelling it "just" an albino dire alligator or something. Those with good nature checks would realize something was off with that description, those with good planes checks would note the glintiness of some of the scales and know that's reminiscent of earth-planar creatures, and that's not albinism so much as chalky quartz skin (just to pick an earth plane as an example).
Or just apply a template or 3 to the animal companion. If you do that, treat it as a separate creature for CR (as you would with the synth idea). You can do that. You're the GM.
Not if covered by the hat. The disguise generated by the hat is magical, but the hat itself is a mundane cloth and leather to cover the rune. Right?If the hat of disguise would affect the translucent outline, then being bitten would most assuredly count as interacting.
Also remember that the rune will still be visible though.
If the hat is shaped so that it covers the forehead, sure.
I'm helping a friend create a BBEG(s) for his campaign, and one of my ideas was to create a Ranger with an "animal companion" that is really a Synthesist Summoner. By RAW, is it possible for an Eidolon to look like, say, a very large aligator?
I'm confused. If you want an "animal companion", why would you want to be a synthesist as well? It'd be pretty easy for a regular summoner with a regular eidolon to pass as a ranger + companion, but a synthesist couldn't...
I would take the ranger at lower than normal level.
Most AP that give NPC's PC level wealth, and a 20 point buy only bump the CR by +1 even though I think it makes things more difficult.
Use some of the gear to give your animal companion some barding and other magic items instead of giving it all to the ranger.
Once again use Boon Companion.
I'm helping a friend create a BBEG(s) for his campaign, and one of my ideas was to create a Ranger with an "animal companion" that is really a Synthesist Summoner. By RAW, is it possible for an Eidolon to look like, say, a very large aligator?I'm confused. If you want an "animal companion", why would you want to be a synthesist as well? It'd be pretty easy for a regular summoner with a regular eidolon to pass as a ranger + companion, but a synthesist couldn't...
I wanted multiple BBEGs, each with their own history that the players can use to their advantage. I want to encourage the players to RP to get a combat advantage, and not brute-force the encounter.
I have already built a Ranger I am happy with who does not have an animal companion. I wanted to build him an ally that would look like his animal companion. I suppose I could have made a druid, but I wanted to play with the evolutions of the Summoner.
So... it's a ranger that took a bond with companions rather than an animal, then took leadership at 7. Seems fine to me. Ideally, you want the summoner to be high enough level to take Large, of course.
As far as the eidolon's appearance goes, you can fix the translucent bit with some dyes, paint, accessories, etc. A disguise kit, a few ranks is disguise, and 1 evolution point in Skilled (disguise) will probably net you a decent +22 to your disguise check at summoner level 5. (5 ranks, +4 cha, +2 kit, +8 racial, +3 if you can make it a class skill).
With enough of a bonus to disguise, you can make a human look like a dwarf. I see no reason that you can't put on enough makeup to make an eidolon look like a crocodile.
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It can look like something, just not specific, and not mundane.
I will refer your to Eidolon Models for examples of eidolon appearances. Note, nowhere in the listing of appearances does it indicate the appearance must deviate from a standard creature of the listed type.
I take the ability to choose such an appearance, in all ways like a normal creature save for the symbol upon the eidolon's forehead, as RAW. The ability to do is printed in very explicit language.
As for a synthesist appearing translucent: degree is NOT defined. A synthesist is free to define exactly how translucent his eidolon appears. This can range from a faint heat shimmer to requiring a bright light directly behind the synthesist to distinguish its nature. Both extremes, and anything in between, meet RAW.
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My god. The lengths people will go to to allow their cheese.
Let me guess, the rules for verbal components also don't define that you have to SAY the verbal components, just that you need to be able to say them.
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My god. The lengths people will go to to allow their cheese.
Let me guess, the rules for verbal components also don't define that you have to SAY the verbal components, just that you need to be able to say them.
Cheese?
Do you even understand what translucency is?
Let me list some common everyday items you may be familiar with that are considered translucent:
- Milk
- Human Skin
- Glass
- Water
To go further, Translucent is a superset of Transparent. That is to say, all transparent materials meet the technical definition of translucent.
Before you try to impose a specific appearance on all eidolons based upon a single word, you should understand exactly what that word means and how it relates to real world, objects.
A five word definition in an online dictionary will not adequately convey this information.
But doesn't a simple question lock down the definition of translucent in this circumstance...
If the fused summoner is not visible inside the eidolon....
the eidolon's skin is:
a- transparent
b- translucent
c- opaque
Doesn't the summoner still need to be visible to some degree for the eidolon to qualify as translucent?
I certainly don't think so.
Must say that I'm with Artanthos on the translucent thing. Sure they have to be somewhat translucent, but the RAW gives no suggestion at all as to the order of magnitude involved.
As for the Eidolon looking like a regular creature, I think it ought have to look somewhat planar - though the pre-builds in Ultimate Magic make that less obviously definitive than it was before, especially as a couple of them claim to look like somewhat regular creatures.
Have to agree with Artanthos as well; by definition translucent covers a pretty array of visibility states.
Then again, I wouldn't object to just letting someone's eidolon be completely opaque anyway. I don't see it really having any more of a gameplay effect than someone saying their character has red hair or green eyes.
Fluffwise, I would agree Chengar up until the point when the Synthesist suddenly starts to try to use this to an advantage.
When it obviates the need for disguises and illusion magic, suddenly there is a problem.
Fluffwise, I would agree Chengar up until the point when the Synthesist suddenly starts to try to use this to an advantage.
When it obviates the need for disguises and illusion magic, suddenly there is a problem.
Agreed.
Your friend is the GM, he can tweak the rules if he wants. Why sweat something minor like this, he canoas he likes.
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I too would bar usages of the eidolon as a substitute for a disguise spell. You choose your form when you level, and it is not specific enough to pass for a specific creature. You need to change appearance during an adventure - find another means.
I would also rule that the synthesist glowing rune (whatever he defines its appearance as) never changes.
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As far as the eidolon's appearance goes it does not necessarily have to be obviously outlandish/otherwordly in appearance. The "specific creature" restriction in the eidolon's write-up is, from what I can tell, to stop a summoner from having his eidolon be able to impersonate another person or creature without the aid of a secondary disguise. For instance, it is acceptable for an eidolon to resemble a horse to the point that people who don't know what the rune on its forehead means to mistake it for a common horse, but it is not OK to model your eidolon into an exact duplicate of Drendel Dreng so you can confuse the newbie pathfinders.
There even is a pathfinder scenario
As far as a synthesist summoner using his eidolon as a disguise spell, There are times when it could, indeed, work. The eidolon is translucent, which means light penetrates it but distorts what's on the other side. If you are walking through a brightly lit area people wouldn't have a tough time noticing that something is amiss with you. On the other hand, if it is nighttime, or you are in a dark area, it would be much harder to make the distinction.
There are other things to take into account as well. Firstly, your eidolon's appearance. The degree to which this matters depends on whether or not your GM allows you to change eidolon appearance (leaving base form and evolutions intact) between summons or not. What it boils down to is this: does the party you are trying to fool know you have an eidolon (and if it is a set appearance do they know what it looks like)? If the answer is "no" then I don't see why it can't be used as a viable disguise. If you are that worried about it then just remember the enemy can still have a perception check to notice the translucency. Just like Disguise Self gives a +10 to disguise checks a guard could have up to a -10 to perception checks to notice that there seems to be a man within the man he's looking at. Another thing to take into account is casting time. If you are being chased you don't really have time to take a minute and perform the ritual to summon your eidolon. And by the time you can get Summon Eidolon (a full round action to cast) you can also get Alter Self (a standard action to cast), so you have to take into account what you are trying to accomplish with it: get away, ambush an enemy, get into a place, etc.
Generally speaking utilizing an eidolon in this way as a synthesist summoner falls under the category of "creative use of resources at hand" and I don't think it would be fair to your players to say "You can't do that because this other spell/item/ability is designed for that purpose".
My skill at searching the forums is crappy but the Dev's have come out and said that you can't have an eidolon that duplicates an existing creature.
No dogs, no ponies, no wolves, no kitty cats. Basically- every bestiary that is published further limits the options to creating an Eidolon. They have to be fantastical creatures.
Hopefully someone with a better capability for forum searching can pull it up.
Whether you follow that in your games or not is, of course, up to you. Just make sure you apply it equally across the board. (i.e. if the NPC summoner doesn't have to follow that rule then neither do the PC's..)
-S
My skill at searching the forums is crappy but the Dev's have come out and said that you can't have an eidolon that duplicates an existing creature.
No dogs, no ponies, no wolves, no kitty cats. Basically- every bestiary that is published further limits the options to creating an Eidolon. They have to be fantastical creatures.
And yet, UM went and muddied the waters on that with it's pre-built eidolons. Quite a few of which are described as looking just like the thing. Such as:
Bodyguard
The eidolon looks like a humanoid warrior. The natural
armor of a bodyguard eidolon appears to be a suit of metal
plate...
I have a lot of problems with the inclusion of the Eidolon Models in that book. They are bad from a fluff perspective, bad from a roleplaying perspective and break the not-allowed-to-make-an-eidolon-look-like-things rule.
I wouldn't have so much of a problem in they were a Bestiary entry for quick eidolons for the GM to throw at a party, but included as they are in the summoner class splat they bug me a lot.|
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You see, it's basically the stuff like in UM, as Mighty Squash has pointed out, that make me believe the "specific creature" rule is not about race and actually about, well, a specific creature. I've been looking through the forums and haven't been able to find where a developer has said that you can't make 'em look like ponies and such but I have seen where a technical director (Vic Wertz, to be specific) jumped into a conversation regarding eidolon appearance but that was just to clarify that you couldn't wave the translucency bit because it goes against what's written in the books. Interestingly enough he completely ignored the parts where people talked of eidolons looking like elves and such.
Honestly they do need to clarify the "Specific Creature" bit because it can be taken two completely different ways but the way I rule it in my games and the way I've seen it played by every other GM/player I've encountered has been that it can, for example, look like a donkey, it can't look like Joe's donkey "Genocide" over there (Yes, I really do have a player that named his donkey "Genocide". His other donkeys are "Fluffy" and "Hung-like-dragon". Yes, I I was kidding).
Mighty, I do have to ask why you think the pre-builts in the UM are bad fluff and roleplaying wise? They were essentially put there for those people who wanted to mold an eidolon after a creature but didn't know quite how to do it. For instance, a long while ago if you had asked me to make an elephant-like eidolon I wouldn't have thought to use the tentacle evolution for the trunk.
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Maybe I'm wrong, but the phrase "Specific Creature" doesn't seem to need any clarification at all...it means a SPECIFIC CREATURE. In English, "specific" nearly always means "unique", "individual", or "only one option". In RPG parlance, "creature" nearly always means a single being, not a group of beings, ie alligators. So, we can reasonably understand the phrase "Specific Creature" to mean a unique individual, NOT a type of animal...
... for example, look like a donkey, it can't look like Joe's donkey "Genocide" over there...
Best. Donkey. Name. Ever. Also, a perfect example of what the "specific creature" phrase is intended to mean.
Mighty, I do have to ask why you think the pre-builts in the UM are bad fluff and roleplaying wise? They were essentially put there for those people who wanted to mold an eidolon after a creature but didn't know quite how to do it. For instance, a long while ago if you had asked me to make an elephant-like eidolon I wouldn't have thought to use the tentacle evolution for the trunk.
While I can see how they may help inspire use of evolutions that might have otherwise been missed, they also encourage laziness in how players think about their eidolon.
It seems to me that a class that is built around a customisable monster should require the player to customise and not just flick through the list of prebuilds and pick the one they think sounds the toughest.