I had this thought tonight that I buy products from rebels like I'm funding some rebellion.
I had this thought when I saw a preview for "Battleship: The Movie" (based on the popular board game where you say a number and your opponent agrees that you miss a lot). The preview says something like, "From the COMPANY that brought you Transformers..."
Then:
H A S B R O
And I was like, NO. A COMPANY just tried to effin take credit for that. Like the OVERMIND manifested a product, brain designed to enslave young males.
That actually may have happened...
But that's beside the point; I realized Paizo is a modern manifesto, a thorn in the side of THE MAN. A group of people that have hijacked the American dream of license and improved a product so thoroughly and so without the creators consent. But it works. This is how fantastic modes are made. Modes of being.
I should identify myself as a believer in "Pathfinder" as such a perfect middle ground for a game that was already legendary. A game that literally lets you take crazy mind adventures. Come on! That's TREASURE. And Paizo ripped D&D away from who owned it, drop kicked it into a wall to subdue it, molded it, renamed the SOB and spit shined it til Maguses fell out.
I thought tonight, yes. Yes, Pathfinder is flawed. Yes, the whole mess of a genre is flawed. Yes, we must make concessions to strange, sweaty, fat people whose beards surprise us. Yes, there are psychos among us, that actually believe in Zon-Kuthon and would and could create a cult based on him, and skin themselves and it's on the news because the news would LOVE that.
Yes, but there's so much beauty in the game. Even for the optimizers. Especially for them. This is all they've got. And the casuals, who barely know the rules but endeavor. For the oldsters, the true spelunkers, the sink hole stars. For the dark hearts, who love just this chance to be evil. For the manwomen, who are men but play women. They are so brave. Because they risk sex advances from their fellow PCs every session. For the DM's, the myriad of them, because they're all different but they're all so alike.
So, a mode of being. Loving something so much you take it, break it, remake it. I guess. Fighting for a change in the hierarchy of PRODUCT land.
I'll support Paizo until they become the establishment. Then I'll hate them too.
If you had truly been around here long enough you would the mindset of the people in charge won't allow that. While they do have to make money, it has never seemed to be "just about the money". Peace <--nuff said.
If you had truly been around here long enough you would the mindset of the people in charge won't allow that. While they do have to make money, it has never seemed to be "just about the money". Peace <--nuff said.
I've been following Paizo since they ran both Dungeon magazine and Dragon magazine and I have loved every minute of their work. But no one gets a pass. Game must be brought, at all times. I wouldn't expect that of anyone if I didn't expect that of myself.
I believe in them, but I'm always watching.
Dude, can I smoke some of that stuff too?
Sure! If by "stuff" you mean "free radical" and "smoke" you mean "worship."
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Nah, I'll pass. I'm aging fast enough as is; I don't need any more free radicals to speed up the process.
For the manwomen, who are men but play women. They are so brave. Because they risk sex advances from their fellow PCs every...
I risk what?????? :O
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It appears my hip-waders were insufficient for this thread.
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TimeCube the thread?
But seriously, yes, Paizo does things a bit differently than the publicly traded corporation. Lisa and Vic have to answer to... uhh... Lisa and Vic, and they seem to be firmly in the "keep the company in the black, and the products in the awesome, and as much as possible, err towards the latter" school of business management, rather than just focusing on next quarter's profit margins.
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Why is this thread a thing?
And I was like, NO. A COMPANY just tried to effin take credit for that. Like the OVERMIND manifested a product...
Just in case this is intended to be a serious thread... that's how Intellectual Property works. You work at a company, and invent a product, and they own it.
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On a mostly unrelated point - when I saw the Battleship preview on TV my first reaction was "ich that looks cheesy bad" but wouldn't have thought anything else about it*, until I saw HASBRO in the preview credits. When I saw HASBRO's self-gloss I instantly had a visceral negative reaction to it because of their ownership of D&D. It was such a vehement dislike that I caught myself up and thought it was odd that I reacted that way because of company ownership.
* (okay I had another thought too - Liam Neeson why are you doing schlock like this when you've done brilliant work! He doesn't stoop so low as Jeremy Irons in taking on the D&D movie, but it's in the ballpark).
Why is this thread a thing?
I would consider this thread more of a PLACE in the nouns spectrum.
And I was like, NO. A COMPANY just tried to effin take credit for that. Like the OVERMIND manifested a product...Just in case this is intended to be a serious thread... that's how Intellectual Property works. You work at a company, and invent a product, and they own it.
Totally! Both intended to be (quasi) serious and also that IS how intellectual property works. A part of my argument, however unspoken, is that intellectual property has some real negative qualities when held up to the light of human progress.
Opinion: It isn't a GOOD thing that in the Ayn Randian sense, making a great product isn't necessary if there is incentive to make a profitable bad product. I don't mean to start a whole nasty thing here, but look at the nature of the Modern Warfare model of video games. They really are continuing to make the same game over and over and have created a video game factory (three teams and counting to make sure 1 game comes out per year) designed to maximize profits. Do these games move the medium forward? I would say, emphatically, no! Are they fun and do people keep buying them...I want to say no, but...
I probably sound blow hardy, I apologize for that. I'm just passionate about seeing the world move ahead with great ideas and IDEA EVOLUTION. And that's the very heart of what I'm talking about, EVOLUTION of concepts. Intellectual property doesn't encourage that.
For further reading check out
http://www.everythingisaremix.info/
Point of fact, Paizo did what they did with the express permission of the owners. That's what the OGL is, permission to use the d20 rules and improve upon them.
I should clarify my above statement that Paizo created Pathfinder without the creators consent. I don't intend that to mean that they've done anything illegal or untoward - rather, if asked, I'm sure HASBRO or WOTC or whatever Shadow Government (kidding!) controls that corp would have said they didn't want a rival to come up and take market shares with a game extremely similar to their own but better, BASED ON MOST OF THEIR OWN DESIGNS!
But that's how it works! That's how most of the great technologies we enjoy were created including electricity, fun dip, Gallagher (actually, he may be the original), and so on.
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I always thought of Paizo like a vampire kitten. It is all cute and furry and you want to pet and play with it. But as soon as you do it latches on with all four paws and bites you, drinking your blood. Blood you are only to happy to give to the cute little vampire kitten cause of the euphoric feelings you get in return. :)
I should clarify my above statement that Paizo created Pathfinder without the creators consent.I'm still in the dark. The consent to use the mechanics was given in the OGL. No one needs 'consent' to make a successful business.
Shhh....he has a theory so the facts better damn well fit.
Removed a post (rape isn't funny), moved thread.
(okay I had another thought too - Liam Neeson why are you doing schlock like this when you've done brilliant work! He doesn't stoop so low as Jeremy Irons in taking on the D&D movie, but it's in the ballpark).
The answer to this is simple:
Liam gotta eat.
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Shhh....he has a theory so the facts better damn well fit.I should clarify my above statement that Paizo created Pathfinder without the creators consent.I'm still in the dark. The consent to use the mechanics was given in the OGL. No one needs 'consent' to make a successful business.
Ha ha! That's probably a little true. I'm gonna make those facts fit even if I have to use both hands.
TRIOMEGA: It's like this, for me: I think if WOTC would have known what would come of the OGL and what Paizo (and other companies) did with it, they would have never done it in the first place. Case in point, the lack of a current OGL or any promises for a future OGL. They didn't get any of the modern designers still employed with WOTC going, "Whoa! Pathfinder? AWESOME! Keep making us look bad! Can't wait to see what you guys do next."
Which is funny because I think competition is a REALLY good thing. But, and excuse some hippy stuff, Capitalism's MO seems to be to eliminate competition. At least, there's an incentive to ruling/monopolizing the market. And where there's incentives...there are vampire kittens. To mix metaphors.
What's a meta for? Anyway.
BTW/Addendum: This thread is just veiled or not so veiled praise of a company that I think are doing great things and in a way that I think they don't have to be. I guess I should say, I feel the love.
And also, thanks for being such a great community, community. I love reading your voices.
Chief Technical Officer
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And I was like, NO. A COMPANY just tried to effin take credit for that. Like the OVERMIND manifested a product...Just in case this is intended to be a serious thread... that's how Intellectual Property works. You work at a company, and invent a product, and they own it.
Or, in the case of Transformers, you work at a Japanese company called Takara, and invent a toy for them, and Takara owns it, but then they make a deal with Hasbro to sell it in the US, and it does really well for Hasbro, so Hasbro buys more and more rights until eventually *they* own it, but Takara at least still gets royalties on it and can sell it in Japan, and then Takara merges with Tomy, so *they* have the rights in Japan, and there are people making cartoons and movies, and there are deals made with even more companies so there are Marvel Transformers and Star Wars Transformers and Subaru Transformers...
You know—the usual.
And I was like, NO. A COMPANY just tried to effin take credit for that. Like the OVERMIND manifested a product...Just in case this is intended to be a serious thread... that's how Intellectual Property works. You work at a company, and invent a product, and they own it.Or, in the case of the Transformers, you work at a Japanese company called Takara, and invent a toy for them, and Takara owns it, but then they make a deal with Hasbro to sell it in the US, and it does really well for Hasbro, so Hasbro buys more and more rights until eventually *they* own it, but Takara at least still gets royalties on it and can sell it in Japan, and then Takara merges with Tomy, so *they* have the rights in Japan, and there are people making cartoons and movies, and there are deals made with even more companies so there are Marvel Transformers and Star Wars Transformers and Subaru Transformers...
You know—the usual.
Uh huh. I don't believe that any major investor or member of upper management of any large corporation has ever come across the good/fun idea that they were unprepared to shamelessly milk the life out of as they ride it all the way to the bank.
I think that people in those positions should be forced to have the old Goose That Laid the Golden Egg fable read to them (preferably by Morgan Freeman) on a daily basis.
Ha ha! That's probably a little true. I'm gonna make those facts fit even if I have to use both hands.
TRIOMEGA: It's like this, for me: I think if WOTC would have known what would come of the OGL and what Paizo (and other companies) did with it, they would have never done it in the first place. Case in point, the lack of a current OGL or any promises for a future OGL. They didn't get any of the modern designers still employed with WOTC going, "Whoa! Pathfinder? AWESOME! Keep making us look bad! Can't wait to see what you guys do next."
I think you're right that they would be having doubts - it's hard to know whether it was net good or bad for them though, since from what I've heard, the OGL was seen to have been a big factor in D&D's rehabilitation and domination through the early 2000s.
Would they have wanted Paizo to not exist in 2012 if it would also mean WoTC would not have had such a dominant place in 2007?
In my view there's no doubt a certain amount of regret (probably that they didnt make the OGL lapsing and/or revocable in the first place). But in business you can't waste time ruminating over how things would have been if your business model ten years ago had been radically different. Fans can do that (what else do we have to do?) but it's just a waste of brain power and could easily be counterproductive for people who actually have to work with what they've got.
Which is funny because I think competition is a REALLY good thing. But, and excuse some hippy stuff, Capitalism's MO seems to be to eliminate competition. At least, there's an incentive to ruling/monopolizing the market.
I would prefer a more nuanced view - capitalism doesnt actually have a goal or an MO. Corporations have incentive to dominate markets, that's true. Of course, the more profitable they become, the more the incentive exists for others to break their stranglehold (I think this is especially true in a market of ideas like RPGs, less so in a very capital-intensive industry where the goliaths who got there first can erect all kinds of barriers to entry).
BTW/Addendum: This thread is just veiled or not so veiled praise of a company that I think are doing great things and in a way that I think they don't have to be. I guess I should say, I feel the love.
Yeah, they're pretty awesome and we're lucky they were not only in the right place at the right time but were also very talented people.
.Personally, I think it's more positive to admire Paizo for what they've done on their own merits. I dont think they succeeded because WoTC failed (either in the 4E rollout or in the choice of implementing an OGL) - I think Paizo succeeded because pathfinder and golarion met a demand.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Uh huh. I don't believe that any major investor or member of upper management of any large corporation has ever come across the good/fun idea that they were unprepared to shamelessly milk the life out of as they ride it all the way to the bank.
I think that people in those positions should be forced to have the old Goose That Laid the Golden Egg fable read to them (preferably by Morgan Freeman) on a daily basis.
But all these Transformers and movies and cartoons have also provided a lot of people with things they enjoy.
But all these Transformers and movies and cartoons have also provided a lot of people with things they enjoy.Uh huh. I don't believe that any major investor or member of upper management of any large corporation has ever come across the good/fun idea that they were unprepared to shamelessly milk the life out of as they ride it all the way to the bank.
I think that people in those positions should be forced to have the old Goose That Laid the Golden Egg fable read to them (preferably by Morgan Freeman) on a daily basis.
True, but I think that a general lack of the ability to grasp the concepts of overexposure and dilution has caused the fall of many a product line; but if those product lines were handled with a healthy dose of moderation, they might still be going strong.
(okay I had another thought too - Liam Neeson why are you doing schlock like this when you've done brilliant work! He doesn't stoop so low as Jeremy Irons in taking on the D&D movie, but it's in the ballpark).
Liam Neeson's wife died in 2009 from a tragic accident. From 2010 to now, he's been involved in 14 projects, some small and some big. I imagine he's going to keep on working and accepting any project he can as a way of dealing with that loss.
For all we know, his process had evolved to the point where he used his wife as a sounding board for his more involved projects. Every person handles grief and loss in a different way. I would suggest that he is handling it by taking work that helps distract him.
There's really no need to mock a person for working, no matter what he or her reasons are. If you want to mock the quality of their work, then go right ahead. But let's not slam someone for actually getting off their butt and doing something.
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I'm not really sure what I just read... so I suppose a ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWAH is in order?
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(okay I had another thought too - Liam Neeson why are you doing schlock like this when you've done brilliant work! He doesn't stoop so low as Jeremy Irons in taking on the D&D movie, but it's in the ballpark).Liam Neeson's wife died in 2009 from a tragic accident. From 2010 to now, he's been involved in 14 projects, some small and some big. I imagine he's going to keep on working and accepting any project he can as a way of dealing with that loss.
For all we know, his process had evolved to the point where he used his wife as a sounding board for his more involved projects. Every person handles grief and loss in a different way. I would suggest that he is handling it by taking work that helps distract him.
There's really no need to mock a person for working, no matter what he or her reasons are. If you want to mock the quality of their work, then go right ahead. But let's not slam someone for actually getting off their butt and doing something.
Hehe okay "man's gotta eat and pay taxes" and all that so I get it :)
But you see Desriden, I suddenly realized that my own irrational irritation over Mr. Neeson taking on Hasbro's Battleship points to a stronger concern, one that I think only the collective wisdom on these boards can resolve for me. You see, when Hasbro releases the movie, and inevitably there will be action figures in the stores after that, and a boy or girl (see no gender bias there) buys the action figure of the ship captain in Neeson's likeness, and then takes it home and plays with it...and it somehow comes into DIRECT contact with that boy or girl's action figure of Qui Gon Jinn from Star Wars (who makes that now after Kenner - Mattel? Disney?), will that not shatter our dimensional reality if TWO likenesses of Neeson see each other in the same space at the same time? I don't think we can ever allow that to happen. This is what keeps me up at night, but perhaps someone can put my mind at ease. And provide math please.
I'm not really sure what I just read... so I suppose a ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWAH is in order?
DO THE IMPOSSIBLE
SEE THE INVISIBLE
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I still don't really get the original post, though now the point's been explained enough that I see what the intent was supposed to be.
Still, the OP is strem-of-consciousness enough that I feel like I'm reading James Joyce.
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But you see Desriden, I suddenly realized that my own irrational irritation over Mr. Neeson taking on Hasbro's Battleship points to a stronger concern, one that I think only the collective wisdom on these boards can resolve for me. You see, when Hasbro releases the movie, and inevitably there will be action figures in the stores after that, and a boy or girl (see no gender bias there) buys the action figure of the ship captain in Neeson's likeness, and then takes it home and plays with it...and it somehow comes into DIRECT contact with that boy or girl's action figure of Qui Gon Jinn from Star Wars (who makes that now after Kenner - Mattel? Disney?), will that not shatter our dimensional reality if TWO likenesses of Neeson see each other in the same space at the same time? I don't think we can ever allow that to happen. This is what keeps me up at night, but perhaps someone can put my mind at ease. And provide math please.
This is not likely to put your mind at ease...
Last week, I was playing with my X-Men figurines, but I had tragically forgotten to put away my Gandalf action figure which I was showing off earlier that day. When Magneto caught sight of the Gandalf figure, the space-time continuum was shattered, and a wormhole opened in my apartment which consumed my neighbor's parrakeet named Misty. I've been sleeping in my car for the last 5 days because I'm afraid of the Lovecraftian horrors that may have been unleashed in my dining nook.
Mine is a cautionary tale for you, my gentle readers. Take heed!
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I stared into the Abyss. What I got staring back at me was Timecube.
Everything's a remix, indeed.
If you believe that, I have a horse in Turin I'd like to sell you.
I stared into the Abyss. What I got staring back at me was Timecube.
Ah, so that's where I left it.
I still don't really get the original post, though now the point's been explained enough that I see what the intent was supposed to be.
Still, the OP is strem-of-consciousness enough that I feel like I'm reading James Joyce.
There's something beautiful about insult by way of being compared to James Joyce.
Feegle, I reread it and think, well, brains are weird. And also, I stand by that this, Pathfinder, is a kind of rebellion, because we're not following the script of a big money corporation that desperately wants us to suscribe to DD Insider, buy the trading cards, collect the figurines, etc.
Not to say that if you're into figurines and trading cards that's a bad thing! I have thousands of Magic cards. Maybe HASBRO won after all...
I think you're right that they would be having doubts - it's hard to know whether it was net good or bad for them though, since from what I've heard, the OGL was seen to have been a big factor in D&D's rehabilitation and domination through the early 2000s.Would they have wanted Paizo to not exist in 2012 if it would also mean WoTC would not have had such a dominant place in 2007?
In my view there's no doubt a certain amount of regret (probably that they didnt make the OGL lapsing and/or revocable in the first place). But in business you can't waste time ruminating over how things would have been if your business model ten years ago had been radically different. Fans can do that (what else do we have to do?) but it's just a waste of brain power and could easily be counterproductive for people who actually have to work with what they've got.
I would prefer a more nuanced view - capitalism doesnt actually have a goal or an MO. Corporations have incentive to dominate markets, that's true. Of course, the more profitable they become, the more the incentive exists for others to break their stranglehold (I think this is especially true in a market of ideas like RPGs, less so in a very capital-intensive...
Steve, I almost completely agree. Nuance keeps the tinfoil hats away. I am an amateur when it comes to analyzing the market and the effect of the OGL. I think just through observation we can say that D&D 3.0 and 3.5 and the D20 system were VERY good things for the RPG community and market as a whole.
RPGers, myself included, own and want to own their game of choice. I think most of us look at it as an art form. I know I do. And when art and business mix, stuff* be crazy. Age old, I know. But when I see BIG companies making moves that don't seem to be in my interest, involving art and an art form that I love, I get passionate. And when I get passionate I James Joyce stream-of-conscious ejaculate a thread like the above, both praising the arteests, and dooming the "MAN."
Now, the part that does involve me is commoditizing art...I think all art should be free, but that's another thread for another day.
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And I was like, NO. A COMPANY just tried to effin take credit for that. Like the OVERMIND manifested a product...Just in case this is intended to be a serious thread... that's how Intellectual Property works. You work at a company, and invent a product, and they own it.
Yeah, pretty much why I disregard IP as a serious thing. Especially after Disney completely turned copyright law on its ear. There are so many songs, books, movies and other artistic endeavors that should be in the public domain now, but aren't because of corporate greed from people so far removed from the process, people or companies that actually had a hand in making said stuff, that the entire idea is laughable.