So I will soon be starting an Underdark campaign and since we are all prisoners sentenced to life in the underdark I figured anything equipment heavy would be just asking to get my ass kicked. So I decided on playing a monk, besides I haven't played a monk in PF yet and Master of Many Styles looks really fun. So I was hoping people could give me some insight into what styles are worth taking (so far crane panther snake and dragon all look interesting)and what feats are best to accompany them, keep in mind we will be in the underdark all campaign and we are starting at lvl 4 with rolled stats (haven't rolled them up yet)though considering this GM's trends (he likes to keep us in a particular over bonus bracket) we will likely have stats similar to 25 point buy. Thanks a lot for the help in advance.
On another note after looking over a lot of style feats I was wondering how well combining dragon and tiger style would be to make a really hard hitting vital striker using Tiger claws/Dragon ferocity/PA? any ideas?
After doing plenty of reading and rereading and building a few different characters I've come up with a few feat builds. They are all up to level 10 since I don't expect us to get much higher than that but I am unsure which one is going to be the most effective... so I thought I would post them here and see what people think of them...
This is the more middle ground defensive build though with dragon style I should be pouring out a lot more damage I see my to hit possibly being a problem especially if using PA.
This is more of an all out offensive style I can use my stunning fist with panther claw attacks to monkey shine into their square then hit them hard with PA at basically no penalty.
Edit: Also after thinking about it I am not married to the idea of using Drunken master and doubt it would work effectively with anything but build 1.
The concept I linked about Panther Style (your build 1 I suppose) is quite specific to a playstyle, so if that's not what you're looking for it's probably not your best bet.
With build 2 you really need that strength for PA and Dragon Ferocity. Consider Tiger Pounce.
Build 3: You forgot to take Tiger Style at some point. Not sure how I feel about Monkey Style. You don't get too many Stunning Fist attempts so it won't be a consistent tactic. And remember that Panther Style only gives you retalitatory attacks from AOOs you provoke with movement, so it's not any AOO.
Drunken Master is always good to have, even though you don't use it as in build 1 (where it's the center point). Just using drunken ki for lots of Wholeness of Body to heal up between encounters later is worth it. You only lose still mind, disease/poison immunity for it (if you're not going past lvl 10). Not the biggest of deals.
Finally a piece of advice on the builds: Start with 1 level in Unarmed Fighter (fighter archetype) and take Crane Style as your character feat, and Crane Wing with your free Style Bonus Feat, then move into monk and take two other Style Feats. That way you get Crane Wing like 5 lvls earlier than in your builds (and 1 bab from fighter doesn't hurt either).
Finally a piece of advice on the builds: Start with 1 level in Unarmed Fighter (fighter archetype) and take Crane Style as your character feat, and Crane Wing with your free Style Bonus Feat, then move into monk and take two other Style Feats. That way you get Crane Wing like 5 lvls earlier than in your builds (and 1 bab from fighter doesn't hurt either).
Doesn't work for a couple of reasons.
1.) You can't take Crane Style as your character feat at 1st, unless you're a monk (it requires BAB +2 or Mnk1). You could take it as your bonus style for Unarmed Fighter, though...but that doesn't help you a ton.
2.) Based on the wording of Master of Many Styles, it's implied that Unarmed Fighter only let's you take the initial style feat, not the rest of the chain. This is debatable, though, since they're all part of a category called "style feats". I think the differing wording is what causes people to debate it...why did they feel the need to call out (in MoMS) that you can take the later feats, but not do that in Unarmed Fighter?
Not too try and trample on any of your ideas, but I am not a huge fan of the snake/crane combo that has become so popular on the boards. Mostly, it is because you give up flurry which holds most of your offensive abilities in exchange for snake fang and combat reflexes. This sinks most of your offense into counterattacks when your opponent misses you. Smart opponents will counter this by simply not attacking the monk in melee. Basically, it's easy to ignore you.
I find just taking one style with other monk archetypes come out generally stonger (usually dragon style). If you are committed to MoMS then I would actually drop crane style. Crane wing is nice, but I have seen it argued that Crane Wing deflection does not grant a Snake Fang counter attack. This is because snake fang says an attack must miss while crane wing says an attack that hits is blocked and deals no damage.
So, here are my 2cp, lose crane style altogether for the opening build. Take snake style and snake fang. It will still net you one blocked attack a round with your sense motive and get you that counter attack, I might even skip combat reflexes depending on how you build your stats. If you find you are getting clobbered then pick up crane later. Take dragon up to ferocity for that str boost to damage. As your third style, I would take tiger style. Plain and simple, you don't have flurry. At level ten, you have an ok main attack and a crappy second attack. Tiger claw lets you have a worthwhile full attack option which can be very devastating with the dragon style feats. Obviously for this build, strength is key as you will be adding it four times on a successful power attack with tiger claw.
Spartakos wrote:
2.) Based on the wording of Master of Many Styles, it's implied that Unarmed Fighter only let's you take the initial style feat, not the rest of the chain. This is debatable, though, since they're all part of a category called "style feats". I think the differing wording is what causes people to debate it...why did they feel the need to call out (in MoMS) that you can take the later feats, but not do that in Unarmed Fighter?
Actually, the wording for Unarmed Fighter does say any style feat so technically you could take crane wing at level 1, but, of course, it has no benefit until you take the crane style feat and can enter the style. However, you are correct that he couldn't take crane style at first level. You could take dragon style though or snake.
Raje wrote:
Drunken Master is always good to have, even though you don't use it as in build 1 (where it's the center point). Just using drunken ki for lots of Wholeness of Body to heal up between encounters later is worth it. You only lose still mind, disease/poison immunity for it (if you're not going past lvl 10). Not the biggest of deals.
Furthermore, why take drunken monk to heal out of combat? take hungry ghost monk and heal in combat! Wait... I just realized you can be both a hungry ghost and a master of many styles. I think I just nerdgasmed.
You could move some feats around to take tiger claw at M6 if you want putting off dragon ferocity til ten by taking tiger style at C3 and taking another feat earlier. Also, I picked C7 and C9 on the fly. You could probably find better feats for those slots.
Build 3: You forgot to take Tiger Style at some point. Not sure how I feel about Monkey Style.
Yeah at the last minute when deciding between styles I felt like Dragon would be better than Tiger and forgot to remove tiger pounce since monkey shine's bonus makes up for my loss in to hit,that would likely become elemental fist since dragon ferocity lets me use it like a monk of the four winds. Also I'm not sure I see where you are coming from with only having so many stunning fists if I'm not retarded (this is a possibility)I should have 4 at the start(since we start at 4th level) sure I cant use it every round but since I stun them and use monkey shine the most often I would have to use it is every other round. The real benefit behind monkey style is the +2 vs ranged for no penalty and Monkey shine the +4 to hit says I PA for free so I get the equivalent of tiger pounce without the AC loss.
pobbes wrote:
So, here are my 2cp, lose crane style altogether for the opening build. Take snake style and snake fang. It will still net you one blocked attack a round with your sense motive and get you that counter attack, I might even skip combat reflexes depending on how you build your stats. If you find you are getting clobbered then pick up crane later. Take dragon up to ferocity for that str boost to damage. As your third style, I would take tiger style. Plain and simple, you don't have flurry. At level ten, you have an ok main attack and a crappy second attack. Tiger claw lets you have a worthwhile full attack option which can be very devastating with the dragon style feats. Obviously for this build, strength is key as you will be adding it four times on a successful power attack with tiger claw.
I actually will agree with you on this having the ability to do decent damage is pretty much a must with the loss of flurry otherwise I might as well play a maneuver master since it would be more useful.
I will say I am absolutely married to the idea of being a MoMS just because it is different and the style feats are interesting, I am less concerned about power balance since I am likely the most power gamey of my entire group so if I optimize too much I leave them all behind and that's not fun for any of us.
pobbes wrote:
Wait... I just realized you can be both a hungry ghost and a master of many styles. I think I just nerdgasmed.
Yeah hungry ghost could be really really good to add to MoMS I'll look into it.
I'm actually making the same thing as a little exercise and I've decided to have both Dragon and Tiger style to add some oomph. Instead of doing the multiple hits on groups of people (Panther + Snake) I plan on sticking to one person and doing a lot of damage to them. With the d6 from Drunk strength and the damage from Dragon Style Feats and Tiger Claws, I'll be doing some decent damage to one person.
I like the idea of a monk that trades the flurry of blows for single, yet focused and explosive attacks. Reminds me a bit of some of the Chinese internal martial arts with wide waist movements and strong palm strikes. I'm sticking with the Drunken Master because I think the class is very cool and my original plan was to make Lei Wulong from Tekken.
Finally a piece of advice on the builds: Start with 1 level in Unarmed Fighter (fighter archetype) and take Crane Style as your character feat, and Crane Wing with your free Style Bonus Feat, then move into monk and take two other Style Feats. That way you get Crane Wing like 5 lvls earlier than in your builds (and 1 bab from fighter doesn't hurt either).
Doesn't work for a couple of reasons.
1.) You can't take Crane Style as your character feat at 1st, unless you're a monk (it requires BAB +2 or Mnk1). You could take it as your bonus style for Unarmed Fighter, though...but that doesn't help you a ton.
2.) Based on the wording of Master of Many Styles, it's implied that Unarmed Fighter only let's you take the initial style feat, not the rest of the chain. This is debatable, though, since they're all part of a category called "style feats". I think the differing wording is what causes people to debate it...why did they feel the need to call out (in MoMS) that you can take the later feats, but not do that in Unarmed Fighter?
And it's pretty obvious you can take any Style Feat as they are all Style Feats (as long as you have the starting feat in the chain). Just because it has "Style" in its name doesn't really qualify them, because then Scorpion Style would be applicable too - and that's not a Style Feat.
Smart opponents will counter this by simply not attacking the monk in melee. Basically, it's easy to ignore you.
Not every opponent is smart, and if they're smart they're probably some BBEG not the run-of-the-mill mook. Have you ever seen mooks just stop attacking a drunken master in some random kung fu movie? :P Yeah, exactly. ^^ They're more likely to get angry and try harder. Most brutes doesn't like to be embarrassed.
pobbes wrote:
Crane wing is nice, but I have seen it argued that Crane Wing deflection does not grant a Snake Fang counter attack. This is because snake fang says an attack must miss while crane wing says an attack that hits is blocked and deals no damage.
Per definition you miss if an attack is deflected and doesn't hit.
pobbes wrote:
As your third style, I would take tiger style. Plain and simple, you don't have flurry. At level ten, you have an ok main attack and a crappy second attack. Tiger claw lets you have a worthwhile full attack option which can be very devastating with the dragon style feats. Obviously for this build, strength is key as you will be adding it four times on a successful power attack with tiger claw.
I'd agree with Tiger Claws for an attack option due to no flurry and Vital Strike being too feat intensive to get much out of.
pobbes wrote:
Furthermore, why take drunken monk to heal out of combat? take hungry ghost monk and heal in combat! Wait... I just realized you can be both a hungry ghost and a master of many styles. I think I just nerdgasmed.
Because you don't really lose anything, and it's cheaper than charges on a cure light wounds wand (which you can't use) and save potions/spell slots. Just spend 1 minute downing that tankard of ale and you're all healed up.
And it's pretty obvious you can take any Style Feat as they are all Style Feats (as long as you have the starting feat in the chain). Just because it has "Style" in its name doesn't really qualify them, because then Scorpion Style would be applicable too - and that's not a Style Feat.
While I can see where you're coming from, many disagree. See here:
I don't believe it's actually been settled, but the other side has a point. Particularly, the specific wording in MoMS (which implies that UF, without this wording, cannot do it) and the fact that if you look at the feat descriptions, the "base style" feats have the tags (Combat, Style) while the later 2 feats in the chain just have the (Combat) tag and not the (Style) tag.
Even with my interpretation, though, you could do the same thing by 3rd:
Well now that I finally have stats I have done some work and come up with this:
Vanara MoMS:
Vanara Unarmed Fighter 1/Master of Many Styles 3
Str:14
Dex:16
Con:12
Int:10
Wis:16
Cha:6 nobody likes me :(
F=Fighter Bonus C=Character M=Monk Bonus
C1:Deflect Arrows
F1:Crane Style
M1:Crane Wing
C3:Snake Style
M2:Snake Fang
C5:Weapon Focus (tradeable but with the defensive fighting my to hit is poor at best)
C7:Panther Style
M6: Panther Claw
C9:?????
