As far as I understand the rules you can Hold a Touch spell as long as you dont cast Spells. As Supernatural Abilities do not case as Spells, the Touch attack shouldnt disappear, should it?
To be more precise: I'm playing a witch and want to store a touch Spell (Chill Touch) on my familiar but continue using Hexes, while my Familiar attacks with Chill Touch every turn.
According to the books:
If a witch is 3rd level or higher, her familiar can deliver touch spells or hexes for her. If the witch and the familiar are in contact at the time the witch casts a touch spell, she can designate her familiar as the “toucher.” The familiar can then deliver the touch spell just as the witch would. As usual, if the witch casts another spell before the touch is delivered, the touch spell dissipates. If the witch activates a hex, her familiar can be used to make the touch. She does not have to be in contact with the familiar to use this ability.
Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges.If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates....
And hexes count as Supernatural therefore:
Using a supernatural ability is usually a standard action (unless defined otherwise by the ability's description). Its use cannot be disrupted, does not require concentration, and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Could this work or am I completely misled?
So long as you aren't casting a spell or touching anyone or anything, you're golden as far as I can see.
Edit: Incidentally, this gives the GM free rein to target your familiar. Not as big a deal for a wizard, but a big deal for a witch, so make sure you're okay with that.
Yeah no worries, never let him run around without mage armor ^^ and with a level 3 group fortunately the enemies are not doing enough damage to kill him directly.
Diego's right on that one.
Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can't hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.
Targets creature or creatures touched (up to one/level)
And the description of Chill Touch says nothing about delivering multiple touch attacks over several rounds, so you have to use them all at once. At least it lets you touch all of them with the same standard action :)
And the description of Chill Touch says nothing about delivering multiple touch attacks over several rounds, so you have to use them all at once. At least it lets you touch all of them with the same standard action :)
It also says nothing about letting you touch multiple targets as part of the spell. That line about multiple targets is for spells like Teleport, not chill touch. Doing otherwise makes the spell incredibly, ridiculously powerful.
How so? Level 5 caster. Round 1: Cast elemental touch. Round 2: Cast chill touch, make five touch attacks, dealing 10d6, save vs strength damage, and some other effect. For two 1st level spells. If he's a magus, he can do all that with weapon attacks. Then full attack at the end, if he bothers to use spell combat.
Chill touch is worded awkwardly. I'm not sure what the intent there is, honestly... worth FAQing.
I suspect the intent is, actually, to let you make multiple attacks over the course of the next several rounds, up to a maximum number of times equal to your level.
The FAQ Request thread was flagged "Answered in the errata." It's currently unknown if this is something that will be answered in the errata, or if the flagmaster considers the question already addressed in existing errata.
The only mention of "touch" I can find in Update 1.3 (First to Fifth) is Laughing Touch (making it mind-affecting), target plant touched (for Blight) and Ghoul Touch (making it a poison effect). So I assume that whoever un-FAQ'd that thread meant that it will be answered in the next errata, whenever the sixth edition of the CRB happens.
In the meantime, regardless of how many touches you can make at once, Chill Touch has a range of Touch, making it a touch spell, and if it's not discharged (one way or another) in the round you cast, you can hold the charge. Whether that charge grants 1 touch per level, or a flurry of game breaking free actions, depends on your DM.
You're ignoring my first quote there. That's the rule that explains spells like Chill Touch.
Also, if we go by your reading, then you can do that "incredibly, ridiculously powerful" combo anyways.
Touch: You must touch a creature or object to affect it. A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit. Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch up to 6 willing targets as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell. If the spell allows you to touch targets over multiple rounds, touching 6 creatures is a full-round action.
That last sentence lets you pull it off anyways, even if your interpretation is correct and it should be over several rounds.
I think that the part in the middle that talks about touch spells that allow you to touch multiple targets is the correct part of the rules to look at though.
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Based on the 3.x version, chill touch is a spell that is meant to last several rounds, allowing you to use it as a weapon like spell.
As I see it (bur RAW spell is effectively a mess thanks to that instantaneous duration):
- you cast the spell and get to make 1/damaging touch/level
- in the following rounds you get make as many attacks you can, based on your BAB. Each time you attack you use up one of the charges.
Problem:
- instantaneous duration: apparently the charge is non magical, with the spell you build up a charge of negative energy that you slowly expend.
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You're ignoring my first quote there. That's the rule that explains spells like Chill Touch.
Also, if we go by your reading, then you can do that "incredibly, ridiculously powerful" combo anyways.
Touch: You must touch a creature or object to affect it. A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit. Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch up to 6 willing targets as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell. If the spell allows you to touch targets over multiple rounds, touching 6 creatures is a full-round action.That last sentence lets you pull it off anyways, even if your interpretation is correct and it should be over several rounds.
I think that the part in the middle that talks about touch spells that allow you to touch multiple targets is the correct part of the rules to look at though.
You must look the rules about touch spells in combat too:
Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
Shocking grasp also has a duration of instantaneous. Everyone knows that you can cast it, hold the charge, and discharge it later. Same thing with chill touch, except you get to make multiple touches before it is fully discharged.
The FAQ Request thread was flagged "Answered in the errata." It's currently unknown if this is something that will be answered in the errata, or if the flagmaster considers the question already addressed in existing errata.The only mention of "touch" I can find in Update 1.3 (First to Fifth) is Laughing Touch (making it mind-affecting), target plant touched (for Blight) and Ghoul Touch (making it a poison effect). So I assume that whoever un-FAQ'd that thread meant that it will be answered in the next errata, whenever the sixth edition of the CRB happens....
Yes, I noticed that, and was considering starting a new thread since I'm considering Chill Touch for my current Dragon Disciple-wannabe sorcerer...
There were a lot of questions asked in that thread however (and its OP), so who knows which one was errataed?
FTR I lean heavily toward JJ's multiple-attacks-over-several-rounds interpretation. What I am more unsure about is how CT iteracts with natural attacks: Can I claw, claw, bite and deliver a CT charge with each if I hit? The first sentence of the spell says rather explicitly that "Your hand [note the singular] glows...", but the rules for delivering held charges with (a) natural attack(s) seem to allow it, and the first sentence of a spell description is usually description, rather than mechanics... no?
Typically yes, you can hold the charge. The following quote says that a specific type of touch attack spell disregards this general rule for touch attack spells.
Touch Spells and Holding the Charge: In most cases, if you don't discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round until the spell is discharged. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.
Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can't hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.
One of these sections is wrong and either the one I'm quoting has old 3.5 information that needs to be removed, or the one in the combat section is missing information that is contained in the magic section.
Thanks for the answers, even though they bring up only more questions. ^^
Still open:
Can you discharge the spell:
- Over multiple rounds?
- Only in one round with as many touch-attacks as you normally can do?
- All charges in one round despite the amount of attacks you normally have?
Clear seem to be:
- You can use them either as melee touch without any other effect.
- You can use them with a natural/unarmed strike and deal normal damage as well.
Also Flower: Elemental Touch:
You also deal energy damage and the related special effect when you attack with your hands using an unarmed strike, a single claw, or a single slam attack. This bonus damage can never apply to multiple weapons. <- Even though it is only mentioned in this spell, I guess this is how all the touch spells should work, as you store them in just one hand.
For Familiars though, they are stored inside the familiar and not a specific bodypart, so I guess you can choose one of his natural attacks there. Or should all be counted as "charged"?
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At least in the printing I have, the text on range touch spells referring to touching multiple targets only refers to willing allies.
"Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch up to 6 willing targets as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell. If the spell allows you to touch targets over multiple rounds, touching 6 creatures is a full-round action."
So no I don't think there is aconfusion about aspell like chill touch, it creates an instantaneous effect that can be used for caster-level # of touches, one free on the round it was cast, the rest on subsequent rounds. The charge can be held indefinitely like the rules on holding a charged spell.
I'm referring to the PRD in my posts, which should be the most up-to-date source available.
I agree that attacks over several rounds makes the most sense, but actually checking the rules, I'm unsure if that's what the RAW says. I think the RAW is kinda confused.
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Typically yes, you can hold the charge. The following quote says that a specific type of touch attack spell disregards this general rule for touch attack spells.
One of these sections is wrong and either the one I'm quoting has old 3.5 information that needs to be removed, or the one in the combat section is missing information that is contained in the magic section.Touch Spells and Holding the Charge: In most cases, if you don't discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round until the spell is discharged. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.
Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can't hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.
You are missing the other relevant piece under magic - Range:
Touch: You must touch a creature or object to affect it. A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit. Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch up to 6 willing targets as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell. If the spell allows you to touch targets over multiple rounds, touching 6 creatures is a full-round action.
And under combat, Actions in combat table, you find:
Use a touch spell on up to six friends - Full-Round Action
From both sources you can either touch up to 6 friendly targets or make 1 attack the round you cast the spell and as much as they are allowed by your BAB the following rounds.
I have checked my books, Chill touch lasting round/level wasn't 3.x, it was 2nd edition. i still think that that is the way the spell should work (giving you a touch attack working as a weapon lasting a few attacks without interfering with later spellcasting), but the 3.X and Pathfinder is decidedly unclear on how ad if it do that.
@Castarr4: The rules on touch spells, "holding the charge" and melee touch attacks are spread around a bit in the rules, but once you read all relevant parts (you and Diego Rossi have already quoted them, and also it was all hashed out in the old thread Grick linked to) and integrate them, it becomes clear that
From both sources you can either touch up to 6 friendly targets or make 1 attack the round you cast the spell and as much as [you] are allowed by your BAB the following rounds
("you" of course signifying the caster; emphasis added).
So I think the RAW on attacking w/ touch spells is OK, though of course it would have been better if it was all in one place.
The RAW on Chill Touch, however...
@Titamo: Yes, it may well be that Chill Touch should work like Elemental Touch. However, as they are currently written, they are quite different. ET has Range: Personal / Target: You, and explicitly grants you a touch attack (with some explicit limitations). Which means you are not "holding the charge" of a touch spell, and thus you can pick up items, cast other spells, etc., without discharging the held charge/dissipating the spell. CT, OTOH, has Range: Touch /Target: Creature or creatures touched. Which means casting another spell will make it dissipate (completely? Or just one charge out of 1/lvl charges?), picking up an item will make it discharge (presumably as if you had successfully touch-attacked the item, thus damaging it -- very annoying if you're trying to drink a potion or cast a spell from a wand, and note that the spell is not Dismissable, so you'll have to spend all your charges, or make the spell dissipate by casting at least one other spell).
Given these significant drawbacks, I think it would be OK to be able to deliver Chill Touches with any and all natural attacks -- note that you do get iterative attacks with Elemental Touch, but you don't get iterative attacks with natural attacks.
Could be interesting for a dragon though, or a sorcerer in dragon form. IF it works as I think it does, or wish it should; take your pick.
(and also, to get back to the original topic, it remains somewhat in the gray area what happens when you activate arcane strike or extend your claws -- I could easily see a GM judging that arcane strike is so "spelly" it dissipates held charges, and likening extending claws to picking up items... possibly even ruling you damage yourself thereby)
Can you discharge the spell:
- Over multiple rounds?
Probably. It's the logical way to rule the spell, and how JJ would do it. All touch spells can be held until discharged. Chill Touch is discharged after touching one creature per level. Until that happens, or you cast another spell, you can continue to hold the charge. This also balances the spell against Shocking Grasp. One does a bunch of damage up front, the other spreads it out and adds a secondary effect, so you can choose between using up spells or actions.
Can you discharge the spell:
- Only in one round with as many touch-attacks as you normally can do?
This would make no sense, as in the vast majority of cases you can only make one touch attack per round. If you can't hold the charge, you can't make a full attack.
Can you discharge the spell:
- All charges in one round despite the amount of attacks you normally have?
Totally broken.
Clear seem to be:
- You can use them either as melee touch without any other effect.
- You can use them with a natural/unarmed strike and deal normal damage as well.
Yes. This is true of all touch spells. (Remember that the unarmed/natural is vs normal AC, not touch AC)
Even though it is only mentioned in this spell, I guess this is how all the touch spells should work, as you store them in just one hand.
This was never in the rules prior to SKR's FAQ Attack, which specifically mentions storing the charge in a hand. It's currently unclear if this was an actual ruling, or just a slip of the mind when posting. There is a FAQ Request post for this here, if anyone is interested.