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The Fighter/Paladin in my group is asking all sorts of questions that I doubt the designers considered. Ugh, okay, lemme explain better. We role-play a fully-fledged world. We don't do only adventures, but also extensive life role-playing. Characters can get married, have children, establish legacies, rule kingdoms (I currently use D&D0 rules for that), and do all sorts of things in between stages.
One problem they're worried about is a bit sensitive. I wasn't going to go into detail because I know a lot of gamers aren't into deep role-playing (at least from what I've heard and read online), but I guess I have no choice. Basically, Venda and Selan fell in love and got married. Venda is the orphan of Meana and Amatrios, while Selan is Imperial Princess of Thyatis. It turned out that Selan was adopted and is actually the daughter of the Goddess Eden (formerly Geneva from a previous campaign) and... Amatrios. That bard got around and was teased so he "proved himself". Venda and Selan have a daughter, though, and don't wanna give up their marriage just because they found out they're half-siblings; they didn't grow up together, they have different mothers, and they're two different people. Thing is, the Empress Stefania knew about it and threw a fit when she found out, demanding they divorce. Eden came in and wiped the Empress's memories so she'll never remember who she adopted Selan from, problem solved. Now, though, several people have to keep this huge secret, including Venda the Paladin, and if the child gets wind of it later in life, she might ask about it. If the daughter finds out, the Empress might find out, and all hell would break loose. That means Venda can't let the daughter (Lillith) know that her parents are half-siblings, and if asked directly, could get a bunch of people in trouble if he tells the truth. Paladin code aside, he cares more about his marriage than he does telling the truth 100% all the time no matter what. As DM, I don't see any harm in keeping one lie if it's for the greater good. I don't think a paladin should fall for that, especially since it's not his fault. Questioning a paladin shouldn't be akin to playing "Liar, Liar" (from the movie).
I don't want people to think this is the only thing going on at my table, not even close, but it's one part of the overall storyline. Eden kept the secret for so long because she'd traveled through time and found out what Demon Lord Orcus was up to. That, and being CN, she didn't care if they were half-siblings. That's beside the point. She was hiding from the other gods, who were trying to hunt her down for violating laws of time, even though she was the only one able to set Venda's group on the path toward correcting the timeline after Bargle screwed it up in the first place. Eden defeated Orcus in combat and banished him to the Abyss for a century (I actually gave players control of Eden's higher level party for that one combat, it was mad fun), but Venda had to deal with Bargle.
Anyway, that's all the information I think I need to give out. What should a paladin do? Telling the truth means disaster in this case. Sure, he can be silent, but there's always a chance that someone might question him or his daughter outright about it. Can't have anyone else knowing.
Inbreeding can have severe repercussions on the children's health and is definitely not something to be encouraged.
I do not see any LG god endorsing it.
Once the Paladin realizes what happened, he has a choice :
1) Put the holy laws of the land (and the will of the Empress) before his own happiness and divorce
2) Put his happy marriage first and fall, as he is now knowingly and willingly spitting on one of the most basic laws of his culture and society
Telling lies only compounds his sin.
Let's say a Paladin gets captured and a demon asks him where his companions are. Can the Paladin lie to save his companions and not be breaking his Paladin code?
He should be frothing at the mouth in righteous fury calling upon his God to smite these foul creatures.
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@Princeimrahill: the idea that the world trusts paladins seems hopelessly naïve.
The world's NPCs do not have access to the CRB. They have no absolute authority telling them that there is a game mechanic preventing paladins from lying. Paladins can brag about it all they want but I seriously doubt the world would believe it, especially when the forces of evil would have an interest in trashing the reputations of paladins.
In real life, one thing that both lawyers and politicians have in common is that members of both professions cannot be caught in a lie, or they 'fall'.
Another thing they have in common, despite their restriction on lying, is that the public perceives these two professions to be the most dishonest professions on the planet!
There is no reason to think that the world would believe the paladin's hype any more than we believe that lawyers and politicians are universally honest.
Allowing someone to die isn't evil. It is neutral.This depends largely if not entirely on the circumstances. Refusing to employ extraordinary measures on a terminal patient constitutes allowing someone to die, and is morally justifiable according to many.
Allowing an innocent hanging on a cliff's edge to fall to their death when one could easily, or even with difficulty, lend aid and rescue them is unquestionably evil.
Seeing as I question it: I'm assumingly it isn't unquesionably or even evil.
Neutral.
@Princeimrahill: the idea that the world trusts paladins seems hopelessly naïve.
The world's NPCs do not have access to the CRB. They have no absolute authority telling them that there is a game mechanic preventing paladins from lying. Paladins can brag about it all they want but I seriously doubt the world would believe it, especially when the forces of evil would have an interest in trashing the reputations of paladins.
In real life, one thing that both lawyers and politicians have in common is that members of both professions cannot be caught in a lie, or they 'fall'.
Another thing they have in common, despite their restriction on lying, is that the public perceives these two professions to be the most dishonest professions on the planet!
There is no reason to think that the world would believe the paladin's hype any more than we believe that lawyers and politicians are universally honest.
I think ordinary people have every bit as much of a reason to believe that paladins adhere to their code as they do to believe that there are actually people in the world that can hurl fireballs or transform flesh into stone. Sure, commoners don't have access to the spellbook part of the CRB, but wizards (and Paladins) are established, verifiable facts of the world in which they live - actual Paladins have fallen; you could go look it up (or consult your local bard, I guess).
The thing about Paladins is you can *test* them. Not sure if this guy's a Paladin or just a fighter in shiny armor? Have him heal the sick just by touching them, or turn his sword into a blade of fire, or summon a magical steed, etc.
Doubting Paladins is a lot like doubting the existence of deities - it's something that makes sense in our own real world, but not so much in Golarion. Sure, Asmodeus might try and trick people into doubting that Iomedae exists, but it's hard to do that when there's a bunch of her clerics running around casting spells. Same thing with Paladins - hard to doubt their code when you've got lots of them running around smiting the forces of evil (and other falling when they resort to dirty tricks).
Now I don't think you're totally off-base - I'm sure SOME people doubt Paladins. But then again, there are people who doubt global warming... or the existence of the president's birth certificate... or the moon landing... etc. Some people can be fooled, but I think the Paladin code and its importance are part of the generally accepted truths of Golarion.
DGLindsey,
Glad you liked my post. To briefly comment on the specific situation in your game, I think one thing that we ought to recognize is that there's a difference between avoiding unnecessary violence and merely seeking to avoid conflict. Your Paladin accidentally violated a taboo, and that has caused some complications (potentially). It's not the Paladin's fault that they violated a taboo, but the consequences are still dangling, and merely covering things up is not going to make things better - in fact, it's likely to make things worse.
Consider: if you accidentally break your friend's prized vase, is it better to lie to conceal that you did it, or to fess up to it and take responsibility for it? Your friend is going to find out that the vase is broken, and there's a chance that they will figure out it's you. The conversation you have with your friend where you accept responsibility is going to be unpleasant (at first) and paying them back for it will take a lot of time/effort/money, but you'll have preserved their trust in you by doing the right thing... even though it's hard (anyone hearing Dumbledore in the back of their heads now?)
If you lie about the vase, it doesn't actually make things better - the vase is still broken. What's worse, there's always a chance that your friend will find out the truth, and then your friendship will be severely damaged. You have to ask yourself: what's more important, preserving your friendship and your friend's trust in you, or the temporary (though significant) unpleasantness of accepting the consequences?
In your situation, your Paladin might still choose to remain with their wife, but that's not really the issue. The issue is whether or not they should lie about it and keep it a secret, and I think the answer is no. I think your Paladin should prove that they are worthy of trust - indeed, that they can be trusted to even reveal the hard truths, including those truths that make their own lives more difficult. People may despise them for their incest, but they will have to respect them for their honor... and their child will never have to feel hurt or betrayed that their parents lied to them and kept secrets from them.
But that's just my two cents, obviously. I'm not as well-versed in the story of your game as you are (and it sounds quite meaty! I'm jealous!) I'm just trying to apply my points here to your situation as I see it.
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There is no reason to think that the world would believe the paladin's hype any more than we believe that lawyers and politicians are universally honest.
By your reasoning, anyone claiming to be a paladin would immediately be considered unworthy and dishonest, which I believe even more unlikely.
Also, RL lawyers and politicians do not have deities looking over their shoulder at every moment, ready to withdraw their powers at the first sign of wrongdoing.
Play 3.5 Paladin. You only fall for gross actions not any action like in PF.
In PF, you fall easier. But you are stronger. Trade-off.Stronger? LOL, Paladin is Tier 4 at best. Much more powerful classes don't have any of the restrictions. The code is flavor, nothing more. Making it a strict rule just doesn't make sense if you're playing a fully fledged world.
The Fighter/Paladin in my group is asking all sorts of questions that I doubt the designers considered. Ugh, okay, lemme explain better. We role-play a fully-fledged world. We don't do only adventures, but also extensive life role-playing. Characters can get married, have children, establish legacies, rule kingdoms (I currently use D&D0 rules for that), and do all sorts of things in between stages.
One problem they're worried about is a bit sensitive. I wasn't going to go into detail because I know a lot of gamers aren't into deep role-playing (at least from what I've heard and read online), but I guess I have no choice. Basically, Venda and Selan fell in love and got married. Venda is the orphan of Meana and Amatrios, while Selan is Imperial Princess of Thyatis. It turned out that Selan was adopted and is actually the daughter of the Goddess Eden (formerly Geneva from a previous campaign) and... Amatrios. That bard got around and was teased so he "proved himself". Venda and Selan have a daughter, though, and don't wanna give up their marriage just because they found out they're half-siblings; they didn't grow up together, they have different mothers, and they're two different people. Thing is, the Empress Stefania knew about it and threw a fit when she found out, demanding they divorce. Eden came in and wiped the Empress's memories so she'll never remember who she adopted Selan from, problem solved. Now, though, several people have to keep this huge secret, including Venda the Paladin, and if the child gets wind of it later in life, she might ask about it. If the daughter finds out, the Empress might find...
1. Even if you consider he idea that the paladin can lie for the 'greater good', how is lying about this in anyway 'for the greater good'? How does lying about this saves a nation or stops a demon? Stopping their divorce is NOT the greater good by any stretch, and if the empress demands someone kills his daughter just for this, he is allowed by all that is good and holy to murderize the empress and give pointed looks to the next in line. Any regent that calls for the murder of children is Evil or a step away from turning Evil.
2. He does not have to lie, he just doesn't have to talk. I mean, how many times will someone come up and say "Hey are you and your wife related?" or something like that. If someone IS asking that, the secret is already out of the bag. Worst come to worst and the daughter wants to talk about it, he should definetly tell her the truth. Have you never watched a movie, series, cartoon or read a novel or comic or heard radio or got any contact with media at all? Keeping that kind of secret from your children can only make things worse, with the children losing all trust and respect for the parents and possibly turning against everything they believe.