Reminds me of a conversation I had with my sister today. Neither of us would trust ourselves with magical powers, because it would be way too easy to begin to rely on them. An 11th level wizard could rule our entire world, with no other magicians to stop him or her.The one ring of power-- the most addictive drug that there is.
This, so much this. That is a wonderful explanation, Moon Glum. Evil intelligent items like the one ring have obvious drawbacks, but characters consider using them for their benefits. Using them isn't even considered evil, which makes them the perfect temptations.
A lawful good fighter might be wielding an intelligent evil axe because it's strong. The axe rarely if ever contests for dominance, or has a low Ego score and thus the Fighter has an easy time overcoming it. Just easy enough that it seems safe. At least until he tries to be rid of it and cannot put it down. Or cuts down someone against his will. Or rolls that 1 and becomes the axe's minion for a while.
Drugs in D&D should be like that. A subtle evil. It seems like a good idea. Everything is fine. You enjoy your bonuses for being hyped up on adrenaline stems, painkillers, and the like...but it'll come at a price later. It's like devils in pill format. ;)
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Reminds me of a conversation I had with my sister today. Neither of us would trust ourselves with magical powers, because it would be way too easy to begin to rely on them. An 11th level wizard could rule our entire world, with no other magicians to stop him or her.The one ring of power-- the most addictive drug that there is.This, so much this. That is a wonderful explanation, Moon Glum. Evil intelligent items like the one ring have obvious drawbacks, but characters consider using them for their benefits. Using them isn't even considered evil, which makes them the perfect temptations.
A lawful good fighter might be wielding an intelligent evil axe because it's strong. The axe rarely if ever contests for dominance, or has a low Ego score and thus the Fighter has an easy time overcoming it. Just easy enough that it seems safe.
I'm fairly sure your reasoning is why pathfinder doesn't handle drugs that way. When it becomes 'another +2' you invite many more people to take up the habit. Not only is it a poor message to send, it's also not very heroic when every adventurer and his dog is on shiver.
Well the whole haste aging you thing was yet another kick in the balls for human PCs, who kind of sucked in pre-3E. There were no half-orcs back then, so humans were the shortest lived race as well. Everything out lived them, including halflings and gnomes. Dwarfs could age an extra 30 years and get a second gray hair. Elves were actually immortal, but just wandered off when they had lived in the world X amount of years (elves simply didn't die of old age or have a maximum age category). Guess which of the races freaking love haste. :PWhat about anabolic steroids? In the real world, they increase your strength. The cost is that after years, you will suffer negative side effects, and won't generally live as long. The trouble is that in D&D, characters would totally just use the drugs, because in all likelihood their character will retire or be eaten by a monster or the campaign will end before the negative effects of the drug become serious.
In 1st edition D&D, certain spells actually aged you. Haste, and potions of speed would age you 1 year, and wish (if you cast it yourself) aged you 5 years. Sort of like using anabolic steriods.
If haste still aged characters 1 year, I am guessing it would not be quite as popular in Pathfinder as it is (but still popular enough).
There were also potions of longevity, and reduced your age but had a cumulative chance per potion you have ever drunken to undo all of the reversed aging effects so that you actually age that many years instead.
EDIT: ninja'd again...
Um, half orcs have been with us since 1E.
I'm fairly sure your reasoning is why pathfinder doesn't handle drugs that way. When it becomes 'another +2' you invite many more people to take up the habit. Not only is it a poor message to send, it's also not very heroic when every adventurer and his dog is on shiver.Reminds me of a conversation I had with my sister today. Neither of us would trust ourselves with magical powers, because it would be way too easy to begin to rely on them. An 11th level wizard could rule our entire world, with no other magicians to stop him or her.The one ring of power-- the most addictive drug that there is.This, so much this. That is a wonderful explanation, Moon Glum. Evil intelligent items like the one ring have obvious drawbacks, but characters consider using them for their benefits. Using them isn't even considered evil, which makes them the perfect temptations.
A lawful good fighter might be wielding an intelligent evil axe because it's strong. The axe rarely if ever contests for dominance, or has a low Ego score and thus the Fighter has an easy time overcoming it. Just easy enough that it seems safe.
If anything, it seems like the right message to send. D&D/Pathfinder is rich with potential learning experiences. Having to watch your PC go through the perils of addiction after getting casually tempted with the apparent short term benefits is a lesson well learned.
From a neurological perspective Cannabis is one of the least dangerous drugs around. Not something a PC would want though. Depressants and adventuring don't mix.
Cannabis also really messes up depth perception. It could help a melee adventurer deal with stress or relax from muscle fatigue. (Years ago my grandfather was a factory worker, in the days when cannabis was legal in the U.S. During break the entire shift would go outside and smoke it, to help soothe their aching muscles.) But a ranged attacker would be really impaired.
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In real life, there's no such thing as nonharmful recreational or nonrecreational drugs. Just saying.
I watched an intelligent friend smoke pot until he was one of the most stupid, unwitty, non-fast thinking people I know. Kind of sad. His long term thinking was still good, but he couldn't think on-the-spot.
If you made up something like reduced Wisdom by 4 and penalized everything else like you were sickened (-2 hit, -2 skill checks), that would probably be good enough.
Cannibis is not addicting.I know plenty of past addicts that disagree with you. That's the problem with anecdotal evidence -- it's anecdotal. If you were to say for some people cannibis isn't addictive then you would be right, but as an universal statement about the qualities of cannibis you are not.*puts on Psych Major hat* Having actually studied this, and based on research not anecdotes, you're both sort of right. Cannabis (which, for reference is technically a mild hallucinogen, not a depressant) is in no way physically addictive. There are no physical symptoms of withdrawal and your body will never become dependent on it. This is actually true for all hallucinogens.
That said, the experience of being on these drugs is potentially psychologically addictive in the same way as any pleasant sensation (gambling isn't physically addictive either, but people still get hooked on it) and so should likely be avoided if one has an addictive personality...but no more than non-drug things people tend to get addicted to.
So, yeah, marijuana in and of itself is basically harmless (at least when used by adults...there's some evidence of it having bad long-term effects on still-developing brains, like those of children or teenagers). Or at least significantly less harmful than alcohol (which is potentially physically addictive, as well as psychologically so, and generally more damaging to the body in the long run). Other hallucinogens are also harmless long-term...but their short term effects are potentially problematic (and would certainly level significant penalties in something like Pathfinder).
EDIT: Ninja'd, but I think my explanation is more complete. ;P
yes completely true.
You should probably add on that cannabis does actually destroy your short term memory, and if taken over a long period (frequently) you will begin to develop difficulty in learning new things.
As a one off thing it is not (much) worse than regular alchohol, but it stays in your body for quite a long time, and can thus impair memory weeks even months after consumption, depending on the amount you take. Fortunately this is not permanent damage, but i would still sugest quiting it in ample time before the exams.
Atleast this is what my neuro science (studying of brains) told me about it.
I am in a position right now that gives me a pretty good perspective on the nature of addiction. I live in essentially an outpatient psych-ward. My issue is and never has been substances, but for most folks it's the reason why they're here. And of those recovering addicts, the substance most often brought up is marijuana. You can't tell those people weed can't be addictive or debilitating. Some of them stopped going to school, others stole from their parents for drug money, two kids even went into full-blown psychosis (which I realize is controversial, but I trust them). It was a through and through destructive craving that dominated their life. However, there's also people here who are recovering from hard drug dependency; painkillers, heroin, pharmaceutics, even meth. Most of those kids also smoked marijuana at some point in their lives, and they have the perspective that it's an entirely different beast. As one guy told me "I don't really care if I ever smoke weed again, but sometimes I don't know how I'm going to get through life without pills." Marijuana is addictive. Because it's really nice. Just like video games or any other recreational activity. Now you might say "no gamer would drop out of school or steal from his/her parents to play Skyrim". But I knew a kid here who did almost exactly that. He didn't steal from anyone, but while he was here he dropped of all college courses to spend more time on the computer (and Skyrim had just come out). There's a guy here so addicted to pornography that he'll look at it with other people in the room, and hope they just don't notice. The first day after he got his laptop (we have limited computer access at first), he told me he had spent the ENTIRE NIGHT watching porn. There's a guy here who before he came was playing over 80 hours of World of Warcraft a week before his parents cut off his subscription. He then tried to kill himself (or wanted to, his wording was a little vague), and got locked up in a psych ward. So yes, weed can be seriously addictive. But so can a whole host of other activities most of us consider as harmless and engage in on a regular basis.
BUT GETTING BACK TO THE POINT OF THE THREAD, I don't see any need for stats for "soft drugs". If the PCs come back from a long day of gnoll-slaying and head off to the tavern to make merry, it's a rare DM that calls for fortitude saves and record keeping of each drink taken. Quaffing a pint of whiskey every evening isn't good for anyone's health, but if that's how the dwarven barbarian wants to describe his nightcap, why give him a hard time about it? Alcohol consumption is played for roleplaying purposes, unless you're a drunken master. So if the party druid passes up a round of ale and instead pulls out his ironwood bong, just treat it as flavor. As a DM, you might even use this as an adventure hook: "Ah, I see you are a connoisseur of fine smoking herbs as myself. Perhaps you may have heard of the fabled Stash of Archmagus Dolamthor? It has recently come to my attention..."
Above all, make sure everyone at the table is comfortable with the introduction of such substances. Whenever your opinions on legalization or drug use, you should foremost respect the people you're gaming with.
I've been trying to find game stats for cannabis and peyote, but I have been unable to find anything.
If they're non-harmful and recreational, why do you need stats?
Set a price per dose (1-20 gp or whatever), you take it, you get high for 10d6 minutes (or whatever). What's the big deal?On a side note, what should a bong cost?
According to Ultimate Combat, a Dan Bong is 1 sp. :)
Something I would like to see stats for are magic drugs. Heroin with a fantasy name is boring. Glimmerseed, a nut that when chewed in starlight on a moonless night causes you to speak in cryptic prophesy and grow pearly white spider legs from your torso is not. Drugs could even be a focal point of your campaign. Perhaps a villain is helplessly addicted to a powerful narcotic distilled from the tears of widows and dwarven bone marrow. Maybe he started out as a good man, or even helped the PCs earlier, but now the totality of his addiction overrides his moral compass. He's disgusted by his own actions (as many addicts are), but can think only of his next fix. Sound a little more compelling than "I'm blowing up the world cause I'm crazy bwa hah hah"?
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In real life, there's no such thing as nonharmful recreational or nonrecreational drugs. Just saying.
I watched an intelligent friend smoke pot until he was one of the most stupid, unwitty, non-fast thinking people I know.
ROFL.
I know three MDs who smoke marijuana. More doctors take hard pharmaceuticals recreationally than any other profession. Remember that the next time you're in for your annual physical.
Your problem was you were trying to talk to your friend while he was stoned, and your friend's problem was he was smoking pot before interacting with non-stoned people.
The reason marijuana is a "gateway drug," is that teenagers try it the same time they try alcohol, and they realize it's no worse than alcohol, so they figure the government's rules must be full of crap. So then they try something else, figuring its no different than booze either, because they got their marijuana from a drug dealer, who has access to other things to try. That's why its a gateway drug. If it were legalized it'd be no different than alcohol, and kids who tried it wouldn't have an automatic connection to obtain harder stuff.
The harder drug than either is frigging cigarettes. Wow. I haven't smoked since 2008 and I still want one.
I'll post some real rules for drug abuse in the next post, because I figure if the mods get froggy they might delete this one.
The graph is about right, and you could easily boil it down to game mechanics, since it already has numbers you can pull from.
X axis = physical harm
Y axis = dependence
Rule:
For new users of a drug, they take a X^2 penalty on mental stats when using the drug until they develop a dependence. If that drops them to below 3 in a stat, they're a vegetable until the drug wears off.
Make a will or fort save, depending on whether it's a physically addictive or mentally addictive drug, DC = 10+Y^2. Failures acquire the "(drug) Dependence" trait.
"(drug) Dependence" trait eliminates the X^2 penalty while doing the drug, but applies an X penalty when not doing it.
Getting rid of the trait requires staying off the drug for Y^2 days, and making another save at the end of the time period.
There's your rule.