magus and spell strike

[blue_the_wolf]

I have not really studied the magus but my understanding of the class is that the class is able to use their sword and make touch attacks kind of like a dual wield OR they can put the spell and sword attack togeather in one all or nothing attack.

I had an issue today where a 3rd level black blade katana wielding magus made an attack with his sword, then cast a spell using it through the sword making another attack with the sword and then a touch attack with he spell.
a
in other words he made 3 attacks, sword vs AC, Sword vs AC, spell vs touch.

is there any way this is possible?

please explain how it works or does not work.

BLUE

[Starglim]

blue_the_wolf wrote:

I have not really studied the magus

Perhaps you should. It sounds as if he used spell combat together with spellstrike. He should have made a sword attack vs. AC at -2 penalty doing typical one-handed katana damage, then cast the spell (making a concentration check to cast defensively), then a sword attack vs. AC at -2 penalty doing one-handed katana damage and also delivering the spell.

I don't see where the extra touch attempt came from, unless you saw him rolling three d20s and he didn't explain what they each were for.

[Umbranus]

Right would have been:
Attack with the sword, then cast, attack with the sword to deliver spell, if it is a hit do sword damage + spell effect.
Both attacks are made with -2 for "two weapon fighting".

[Name Violation]

a 3rd level magus should have had 2 attacks with that, not 3

[blue_the_wolf]

so its

attack for sword damage -2 to hit

then

attack for sword damgae + spell damage -2 to hit?

in other words.

if all hits he gets to roll sword damage twice and spell damage once?

[Nightwish]

A 3rd level magus should not have two weapon-based attacks, unless he is using Two-Weapon Fighting. If he combines spell combat and spell strike, he should have one weapon-based attack through which he can also channel a spell (casting defensively) for weapon damage plus spell effect. He would also have an offhand attack with which he can cast a prepared spell (also casting defensively). Each attack would be at a -2 penalty, assuming the offhand attack is one which requires a "to hit" roll.

So ...

If using TWF - two weapon attacks with all applicable penalties, one of which can be used to also channel a spell, but Spell Combat is not usable, since it requires a full round attack and a free hand.

If not using TWF - one weapon attack, which can channel a spell, and one offhand attack used to cast any spell in the magus' available list, but not through the weapon. Both attacks incur the same -2 penalty.

[blue_the_wolf]

so your saying he can do

sword + spell and then spell

but not sword then sword + spell.

I hope I am not making this complicated. I am simply asking how many sword and spell attacks a katana wielding magus can get at level 3.

the part that is bothering me the most is that it appears that the magus is getting a free attack.

I understand that he should be able to make a sword attack AND a spell attack as a full round. but it seems as if he is using a single weapon to make two melee attacks PLUS a spell. or according to night wish 2 spells and a melee attack.

either way it seems as if there is an extra some where.

If the magus does NOT use his sword does he then get 2 spells or if he does not cast spells does he still get 2 attacks?

[Maezer]

Using spell combat:

The magus can make a full attack and cast a spell before, during, or after the full attack. For your 3rd level magus this is 1 spell and 1 attack.

If the spell cast grants an attack as a free action (as most spell that require an attack roll do). Then they get that free action as well. By using spellstrike, that can replace the free attack action granted by the spell with a free weapon attack.

You can set up discharging 2 spell by having a touch spell already cast but not successfully discharged from a previous action.

[Nightwish]

blue_the_wolf wrote:

I understand that he should be able to make a sword attack AND a spell attack as a full round. but it seems as if he is using a single weapon to make two melee attacks PLUS a spell. or according to night wish 2 spells and a melee attack.

Right now, I'm in a discussion on another thread about whether I'm correctly interpreting that. The way the rules are written, they suggest two spells are possible. But others are arguing RAI that it intends only one spell. That's not what it says, but that may be what is intended. I'm not sure.

[Jonathan Henson]

If their spell requires a touch attack and they are making a weapon attack , I believe the weapon only takes the -2 from what I read, but if you use spellstrike, which allows you to channel your touch spell through your weapon, it's full round action, but you take no attack penalties. It counts as one attack.

[blue_the_wolf]

ok. i think i get that.

so using shocking grasp as an example.

he gets one sword attack and then a sperate attack with the shocking grasp.

and if that shocking grasp is cast thought the sword the attack deals sword AND spell damage.

so sword only THEN sword plus spell.

Is that correct?

I had thought that the spell attack is made as a part of the sword attack for the round but what I am understanding (if i am getting this right)

is that the spell can become an entirely sperate sword attack thus

sword > sword+spell

seems pretty powerfull especially at low levels.

[galahad2112]

Actually, there is a great guide to this on the forums here (I'm not sure where exactly, I'll have to post it later), but it basically boils down to:

A magus uses spell combat. This gets him 1 spell and a regular full attack. At level 3, in this case, this = 1 spell + 1 melee attack. The order of operations is up to the magus. He can cast first or make his melee attack first. In the Shocking Grasp example, he gets a "free touch attack" as part of the spell. Spellstrike lets him make a regular melee attack INSTEAD of the touch attack. Thus he could
1) cast SG
2) make sword attack vs. regular AC (at -2 for spell combat)
3) make regular sword attack vs. regular AC (again, -2 for spell combat)

If his sword hits in step 2, he deals sword damage AND spell damage. If his sword attack crits, he deals crit damage for the sword AND double damage for the spell.

If his sword attack missis in step 2, his sword is still charged with the spell though. If he misses the attack in step 2, but hits in the step 3 attack, he can still do weapon damage AND spell damage.

An alternate attack sequence could be
1) make regular attack vs. AC, -2 for spell combat
2) cast spell
3) Make "free" attack with sword to deliver spell, regular AC, -2 for spell combat

To make things even more interesting, the magus could enter the round with an already cast spell (lets assume another Shocking Grasp)

Thus his pattern could be
1) make "regular attack", which also happens to deliver pre-cast spell
2) cast additional spell
3) make "free" attack to deliver the spell cast in step 2.

Thus the magus could (effectively) get 2 spells and 2 attacks in one round, but he'd be eating up his resources very fast. Plus, he'd have to spend the previous round casting a spell, and merely delivering it in the second round.

[Maezer]

You can cast the spell at any point in relation to your full attack.

So you can go Cast Spell > Use Free action granted by spell to make weapon attack > make regular full attack sequence.

It is powerful. Particularly at low levels. It has costs, it requires you to keep a hand free, and not use a weapon two-handed. And is fueled by a limited resource of spell slots. I have found Magi to be powerful damage dealers. But truth be told, there are a lot of powerful damage dealers out there.

[Von Marshal]

I have found that to make the magus round easier to under stand, unless the player has a spicific reason not to, have the magus who annouce spell combate and spell strike; once done have them roll their concentration check for the ability to cast the spell. This tells the gm how may attacks they get that turn.
If successful concentration check is made they get # in bab plus one. All attacks get a negative 2 to hit. It is up to the GM to make sure that if the player is using spell strike, unless the use a higher level magus as their swift action, that all weapon delivered attacks are against regular ac not touch.
The ease come in for the gm in setting up a routine that the gm trakes.

[galahad2112]

Hey, I found that guide to how spellstrike and spell combat works, Grick did a fantastic job with many examples and comparisons. You can find it here

[james maissen]

Von Marshal wrote:

I have found that to make the magus round easier to under stand, unless the player has a spicific reason not to, have the magus who annouce spell combate and spell strike; once done have them roll their concentration check for the ability to cast the spell. This tells the gm how may attacks they get that turn.

Having them 'announce' spell combat makes sense, as it is a full round action (full attack action) that imposes a -2 to hit.

However spellstrike need not be announced until the magus successfully casts a touch spell and the magus wishes to deliver it via a (free) normal melee attack with a weapon rather than a (free) melee touch attack.

Likewise unless they are electing to cast their spell before making their normal attacks in a full attack, they should NOT roll beforehand as they might drop their enemies before it came around to casting a spell.

They could then elect to not cast the spell, cast a different spell, or even cast the touch spell then make a 5' step to then deliver either a free melee attack via a weapon (using spellstrike) or a free melee touch attack.

-James