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While running Gods Market Gamble the other day, I got to wondering what exactly is Torch's position within the Pathfinder Society? Since the idea of warring factions is frowned upon by the Decemvirate (or is it?), his obvious title of 'Faction Head' probably doesnt count as far as 'The Ten' are concerned.
So what does he do? is he a liason between the Ten and the regular people?
Director of Brand Strategy
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He used to be a Pathfinder field agent, but was thought dead, and left behind on a mission. He then created his current Grandmaster Torch persona and rose to power as one of Absalom's most influential information brokers. In this position, he helped the Society and racked up a slew of favors they owed him. While not a Pathfinder or Venture-captain in the truest senses of the word, he nevertheless holds sway in the Society both for the valuable asset he is now and will be in the future, but also for the countless times he helped them in the past before they knew who he was or what his ties were to the Shadow Lodge operating under their noses.
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I don't think that I will ever forget a fun DM of mine back in Houston - he never knew or described the burn scars Torch has - RPing him with this hilariously awful Transylvanian/Middle Eastern/pirate accent and constantly callings his "Good and Faithful friends of the Pathfinder Society!".
Every time he said it, we knew we were in for some bad stuff to happen to us.
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I don't think you're in the minority. Most of the people of my (and Seth's) gaming group dislike Torch for one reason or another. We're the reason he had to stat out Torch, because there was a serious debate about causing a time paradox and trying to slag him in season 1. =)
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I don't think you're in the minority. Most of the people of my (and Seth's) gaming group dislike Torch for one reason or another. We're the reason he had to stat out Torch, because there was a serious debate about causing a time paradox and trying to slag him in season 1. =)
Iirc, you and Tarma are in the minority, with that opinion, in our local group. Most people seem apathetic towards him at most. Personally, I'm quite fond of the character, but that might be because I had a really good GM protray him for the first time I encountered him.
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I can't stand him for his association with the whole playable shadow lodge bit. Sorry, you work to destabilize the society, it gets out of hand, you spend more lives fixing the mess you made, and then.....you get your own faction? I'm sorry, say what? I couldn't hear you over the sillyness....
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I can't stand him for his association with the whole playable shadow lodge bit. Sorry, you work to destabilize the society, it gets out of hand, you spend more lives fixing the mess you made, and then.....you get your own faction? I'm sorry, say what? I couldn't hear you over the sillyness....
Sounds like the real world...
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I like GM Torch, but what I really like is how I portray him. In various scenarios, I find he's very unlikable, and I can understand why different players would want to kill him.
GM Torch is a central re-occurring NPC in my PFS home campaign, since almost all of the PCs are Shadow Lodge. Instead of VCs giving the PCs the mission briefings, he often does (or takes part in some way).
The way I run the fluff of the SL, the overall motivation of the SL is to identify, investigate, and take down the members of the Decemvirate. Perhaps GM Torch even wants to add himself to their ranks (or maybe not). Make them accountable? It's more like "show everyone their true colors" and take them down.
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I have a problem with GM Torch's transition from cold hearted, murderous information broker to protector of Pathfinders everywhere.
At first GM Torch was described as an information broker, basically a powerful crime lord, Sczarni type character, who would buy or sell anything for a profit as well as kill people indiscriminately (Ex. Many Fortunes of GM Torch).
Now as leader of the SL, his role is to protect Pathfinders from the Decemvirate and look out for their better interests. "Make the Decemvirate accountable".
This transition from cold hearted killer to Mother Theresa makes no sense at all to me. It's like he's a different person.
Actually, the entire amalgamation of the SL into the PF society doesn't make a whole lot of sense. These people were basically terrorists, worked with goblins (and others evil beings), and killed PF agents. Now they "truly wants the best for the Society and its members". Huh? The only way I can make sense of that, is that it's a front. A ruse.
I just hope in season 4 we get some consistency with his role and the role of the SL within the PF society. And do something more interesting than find out how Pathfinder X died.
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Having seen both the cold-hearted mobster style Torch and the "let's all hug!" Torch, I almost wonder if something was supposed to happen to him (death, exile, etc.) and SL was to be taken over by someone else. Then somewhere in the development process, Torch stayed around but the personality of the 'new' leader go placed onto him. It's the only way I explain such a personality change. Either that, or someone forgot to do a doppelganger check. =)
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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The best faction I can equate to the Season 2 Shadow Lodge isn't the Season 3 Shadow Lodge. It's the Silver Crusade. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Ollystra Zadrian were a member in good standing of the Shadow Lodge during its heyday.
Some of you are shaking your heads.
Throughout the year of the Shadow Lodge, the authors and campaign coordinators repeatedly assured us that the Shadow Lodge wasn't simply "evil Pathfinders."
It is not a matter of good and evil. It is rather a question
of methods and goals, limits and horizons. One cannot tell a member of the Shadow Lodge simply by appearance. Even personality and past deeds are unreliable measures, as the Shadow Lodge counts among its ranks some of the most storied and trusted agents in the Society. Anyone could be a member. The Shadow Lodge is ambitious, to be sure, but its members are not careless, so they build slowly, methodically, and—so far—quietly, beneath the radar of the Society at large.
The Shadow Lodge comprised those members of the Society who chafed at the Decembrivate's insistence on remaining neutral. It included Chelaxians who would like nothing better than to root around the Grand Lodge's vaults for the means to re-annex Andoran and Galt, but it also included Andorans who wanted to turn the Society's powers against Cheliax. (The party is presumed to be nice, if not Good, so the scenarios kept presenting oppositional Shadow Lodge members who were nasty and Evil. But that's a skewed sampling.)
The Shadow Lodge was a union of wartime extremity. If it had ever been able to displace the Ten, if it were ever victorious, the alliance would have collapsed immediately.
But the Silver Crusade's goals, using the Society's resources to close the Worldwound and stem the tide of devils in Cheliax? That's the kind of pro-active thinking that marked the Shadow Lodge.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I also think Torch's motives could be portrayed as unchanged, but the methods have.
If you look at Season 0-2 Torch as 'on the outside looking in' trying to make inroads to expose/eliminate/confuse the higher ups while building 'his' lodge. When things blow up in Season 3, he's taking advantage of the chaos, but realizes that he can achieve his goals more in working within the system as well.
Also to use a bit of Television examples, I think the factions see the Society as Warehouse 13, catalog the artifacts, collect, and lock them away.
The Shadow Lodge, but more the Silver Crusade, are more like Eureka. Taking advancements and technology and adapting it, claiming it's for the betterment of mankind. Now this isn't a perfect example (Warehouse 13 does let limited magi-tech artifacts out, Eureka is part of the DoD) but it's an analogy.
And yes, this would make the Scarzini the Society's McPherson. :-)
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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Coming at this from the other perspective, it's more than a little confusing.
I'm fairly new to Pathfinder in general, and PFS in particular. So when I (and my wife) came to create our first PFS characters, I ended up picking Shadow Lodge for my faction based mainly on the information in the player's guide.
It's quite jarring to play some of the earlier pre-season-three scenarios, as suddenly your faction is being portrayed as a major cause of trouble and unrest (if not worse), which conflicts with much of what you have been told. The mapping of faction missions to Cheliax underlines this, too - there are a few cases where what you have to do just doesn't fit. Admittedly this isn't a problem unique to the Shadow Lodge - Silver Crusade faction members can have similar issues with their missions - but it all contributes to making the "suspension of disbelief" much harder.
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Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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Well, what's supposed to happen with the older scenarios for shadow lodge members, is those causing trouble are rogue SL members and you're trying to stop them from giving your faction a bad name (or something like that). At least I know I read that from an official source somewhere.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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Yes, that's the official storyline (as found in the player's guide). But, of course, those older scenarios were written long before the Shadow Lodge came to (sometimes strained) terms with the Pathfinder Society as a whole. So the background material, boxed text, etc. (and sometimes even major plot points) are scripted from the less nuanced viewpoint.
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Back then, they weren't portrayed as "rogue" agents. Back then, they were doing what the Shadow Lodge was meant to be doing. Later, it feels like a convoluted and crazy shift to the plot occurred so people could be a part of the Shadow Lodge. The problem is, it makes the Shadow Lodge look bipolar and kinda makes those Season 2 Scenarios look a bit silly.
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Yes, that's the official storyline (as found in the player's guide). But, of course, those older scenarios were written long before the Shadow Lodge came to (sometimes strained) terms with the Pathfinder Society as a whole. So the background material, boxed text, etc. (and sometimes even major plot points) are scripted from the less nuanced viewpoint.
Don't forget that it also means that the Shdow Lodge missions are the same as the Cheliax missions, meaning that Torch is sending you missives with text that has adult themes instead of the Paracountess. :/
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Don't forget that it also means that the Shdow Lodge missions are the same as the Cheliax missions, meaning that Torch is sending you missives with text that has adult themes instead of the Paracountess. :/
To avoid the inevitable SAN loss, I reskin the text in my head.
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Don't forget that it also means that the Shdow Lodge missions are the same as the Cheliax missions, meaning that Torch is sending you missives with text that has adult themes instead of the Paracountess. :/To avoid the inevitable SAN loss, I reskin the text in my head.
Reskinning isnt allowed in PFS, sorry. ;)
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Don't forget that it also means that the Shdow Lodge missions are the same as the Cheliax missions, meaning that Torch is sending you missives with text that has adult themes instead of the Paracountess. :/To avoid the inevitable SAN loss, I reskin the text in my head.
When I played in Gods Market Gamble (which features Torch in a more prominent role than just giving out faction missions), half the table kept saying things like "Could I just wait outside while someone else talks to Creepy Bathtub Guy?"
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When I played in Gods Market Gamble (which features Torch in a more prominent role than just giving out faction missions), half the table kept saying things like "Could I just wait outside while someone else talks to Creepy Bathtub Guy?"
I had fun with Torch in God's Market Gamble.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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When I played in Gods Market Gamble (which features Torch in a more prominent role than just giving out faction missions), half the table kept saying things like "Could I just wait outside while someone else talks to Creepy Bathtub Guy?"I had fun with Torch in God's Market Gamble.
** spoiler omitted **
If memory serves, that's what Andy did at my table too. All in all, that was a pretty fun scenario. I'm trying to convince my brothers to buy it for me so I can run them through it. :D
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Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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If memory serves, that's what Andy did at my table too. All in all, that was a pretty fun scenario. I'm trying to convince my brothers to buy it for me so I can run them through it. :DWhen I played in Gods Market Gamble (which features Torch in a more prominent role than just giving out faction missions), half the table kept saying things like "Could I just wait outside while someone else talks to Creepy Bathtub Guy?"I had fun with Torch in God's Market Gamble.
** spoiler omitted **
I did the same thing.
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When I played in Gods Market Gamble (which features Torch in a more prominent role than just giving out faction missions), half the table kept saying things like "Could I just wait outside while someone else talks to Creepy Bathtub Guy?"I had fun with Torch in God's Market Gamble.
** spoiler omitted **
Bahahha. I had the same idea.
We loved torch in that scenario. None of this wander around aimlessly nonsense we usually get. Here's a name, here's an address, start asking questions. After we questioned the first person on the list, they did some favors for us, we were worried about their safety so we brought them back to grandmaster torch for safekeeping and exfoliating.
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I like Grandmaster Torch, but I wish PFS writers would give some of the other characters a back story, motivations, personality and goals for a change. I know barely anything about 70% + of the Faction leaders. It's always about the same creepy dude in the bath.
We follow this burns victim around for three seasons, while there's nine other faction leaders out there who deserve a bit of love.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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The way I see it, Grandmaster Torch has several roles that interact with the Society members and he was an information broker long before he was a 'faction leader'. Even in his new role, I feel he is by far the easiest of the faction leaders to work into a plot. Most of the other faction heads have fairly specific niches, for example, I have trouble seeing how I could really work Amara Li into a similar role unless it involved something specific to Tian Xia.
Looking back, perhaps I could have used the Paracountess as an NPC liaison, the Chelaxian Embassy is right near the God's Market area. That would have changed the nature of the interactions a good bit :D
Keeping in mind that the authors work from an outline which may not involve a specific faction, do you have some suggestions for how the others could get more integrated into a scenario which isn't fairly specific to their niche?
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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One element of using Grandmaster Torch as the head of the Shadow Lodge is the way that faction undermines the authority of both the Decembrivate and the Venture Captains. For example, in Sewer Dragons, Torch's mission insists that the Society doesn't care about an agent who went missing, while the Grand Lodge's mission contradicts that accusation.
Having Torch featured so prominently in God's Market Gambit sets up the same kind of accusation. You do well in using Kreighton Shaine, because he's not quite sane and detached. It sort of supports Torch's claim. (If you'd used Valsin, for example, either the Venture Captain would have, indeed, not cared much about the murdered agents, losing sympathy, or else the Shadow Lodge's raison d'etre would be proven wrong.) It's a narrow road to travel.
Other faction heads?
It's easy to get Abrus Valsin involved. Have something bad happen on the Grand Lodge campus. He would act in his role of castellan.
The Paracountess's brother is some sort of intelligent undead, possibly a vampire. That's something of a scandal for her, as she had something to do with it, and another political scandal isn't what she needs right now.
I thought Song of the Sea Witch did a good job of using Ollysta Zadrian, as just an active do-gooder in Absalom. She might also be used as a gateway character into some political maneuverings inside the temple area. She's young and idealistic, and probably hopeless at the realpolitik that threatens even the holiest of organizations.
Guaril Karela, hasn't gotten much notice except as a stock "shady businessman". I think it would be fun to throw him into the field somewhere in his native Varisia, especially since he contrasts so dramatically with the upper crust Venture Captains stationed in Magnimar. The danger there is the obvious one: with two or three strong NPC personalities involved, how does a writer keep the plot focused on the PCs?
She's not a faction leader any more, but I imagine that a number of Qadiran agents might still have some loyalty left for Pasha al-Jakri. I was about to write an adventure seed for her, but I like it so much I'm going to sketch an adventure around it myself and submit it.
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Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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The way I see it, Grandmaster Torch has several roles that interact with the Society members and he was an information broker long before he was a 'faction leader'. Even in his new role, I feel he is by far the easiest of the faction leaders to work into a plot. Most of the other faction heads have fairly specific niches, for example, I have trouble seeing how I could really work Amara Li into a similar role unless it involved something specific to Tian Xia.
Looking back, perhaps I could have used the Paracountess as an NPC liaison, the Chelaxian Embassy is right near the God's Market area. That would have changed the nature of the interactions a good bit :D
Keeping in mind that the authors work from an outline which may not involve a specific faction, do you have some suggestions for how the others could get more integrated into a scenario which isn't fairly specific to their niche?
I wouldn't have minded visiting the Paracountess or Amara Li in the bath house... ;D
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My hatred for GMT is very well known, and believe me, had I had not been playing with a wizard who kept thinking he could melee every thing he came across we definitely would have taken a shot at taking him down. :P
My issue with GMT (Beyond the typical fact that he's a jerkface) is that he's still not really well defined. He either got really badly burned or hit by the absolute worst witch curse available, meaning he's either a fairly awesome or a really terrible pathfinder. And what's the endgame of his mission? Let's say that he can prove that the deceimvirate doesn't care about pathfinders, then what? There's still too much bad blood between him and the other pathfinders to let him become one of the ten. It's not a really well thought out plan. And because of that, it's really kind of hard to care about him.
Although, I will give you that you can say the same for a lot of the new faction leaders.
Oh, its *easy* to pin down what the other new heads want.
Amara Li: Influence and power, also wealth. Increased Tian presence in the part of the world.
Valsin: Growing society, successful expeditions. Perhaps becoming one of the Ten.
Guaril: Money. Needs no explanation.
Silver Crusade Lady: GOOD FOR THE GOOD GODS! She wants nothing for herself, just to help others.
Torch. Uhh, power, I guess? Even tho he already had power. Money? Already had it. Influence? Sure. Even though if the Ten were as evil as he thought, WHY THE HECK ISN'T HE DEAD?!
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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One element of using Grandmaster Torch as the head of the Shadow Lodge is the way that faction undermines the authority of both the Decembrivate and the Venture Captains. For example, in Sewer Dragons, Torch's mission insists that the Society doesn't care about an agent who went missing, while the Grand Lodge's mission contradicts that accusation.
People's perceptions are often detached from reality. Torch may well honestly believe that the Society is not doing a reasonable job of looking after a missing Pathfinder even if when are. From Torch's point of view, looking after the fallen should be the primary mission, not something assigned to one of Abrus' lackeys (assuming a Silver Crusade faction member is even on the mission).
They are redundant, but I don't see them as being contradicting.
It's easy to get Abrus Valsin involved. Have something bad happen on the Grand Lodge campus. He would act in his role of castellan.
The Paracountess's brother is some sort of intelligent undead, possibly a vampire. That's something of a scandal for her, as she had something to do with it, and another political scandal isn't what she needs right now.
Things like this are much tougher to work into a given scenario unless the initial outline we're given plays almost directly into that sort of thing. If I'd intended to work the Paracountess into either scenario I've written to date, I don't think I could have worked that into it without going pretty far off script.
Ollysta and Guaril are both excellent choices and in retrospect might well have worked out a bit better than Torch. Guaril in particular would have been fun to try and give a bit depth. The ties to Ollysta were so obvious, she was originally going to be in the scenario to some extent, but I wound up cutting her out due to space.