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(reposted from a PFS thread as it is a general rule question)
A question about a witch replacing a dead familiar:
If a familiar is lost or dies, it can be replaced 1 day later through a special ritual that costs 500 gp per witch level. The ritual takes 8 hours to complete. A new familiar begins knowing all of the 0-level spells plus two spells of every level the witch is able to cast. These are in addition to any bonus spells known by the familiar based on the witch’s level and her patron (see patron spells).
What are the bonus spells?
- only the patron spells- the two spell each level that the witch get for his class progression plus the patron spells
- all the above plus his intelligence bonus as first level spells
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(reposted from a PFS thread as it is a general rule question)
A question about a witch replacing a dead familiar:
If a familiar is lost or dies, it can be replaced 1 day later through a special ritual that costs 500 gp per witch level. The ritual takes 8 hours to complete. A new familiar begins knowing all of the 0-level spells plus two spells of every level the witch is able to cast. These are in addition to any bonus spells known by the familiar based on the witch’s level and her patron (see patron spells).What are the bonus spells?
- only the patron spells
- the two spell each level that the witch get for his class progression plus the patron spells
- all the above plus his intelligence bonus as first level spells
I'd say the bonus spells are patron spells, intelligence bonus spells from 1st level (which should all be 1st-level spells), and any spells that were added to the familiar through things like favored class bonuses. The part about "knowing two spells of every level the witch is able to cast" takes care of the two spells each level that the witch got for class progression.
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The part about "knowing two spells of every level the witch is able to cast" takes care of the two spells each level that the witch got for class progression.
As written I read it as "If the witch is level 5 she gets 2 1 levels spells, 2 second level and 2 third level when replacing the familiar." while progressing in level would have her get 2 1 level spells at level 2, 4 second level spells for levels 3 and 4, and 2 level 3 spells when she get to level 5.
so the progression is completely different.|
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The part about "knowing two spells of every level the witch is able to cast" takes care of the two spells each level that the witch got for class progression.As written I read it as "If the witch is level 5 she gets 2 1 levels spells, 2 second level and 2 third level when replacing the familiar." while progressing in level would have her get 2 1 level spells at level 2, 4 second level spells for levels 3 and 4, and 2 level 3 spells when she get to level 5.
so the progression is completely different.
Hmm, yeah that's true. They should have just said "four spells of each level that she can cast, except the highest one, that one's 2." or something. That's... not easy to interpret.
(reposted from a PFS thread as it is a general rule question)
A question about a witch replacing a dead familiar:
If a familiar is lost or dies, it can be replaced 1 day later through a special ritual that costs 500 gp per witch level. The ritual takes 8 hours to complete. A new familiar begins knowing all of the 0-level spells plus two spells of every level the witch is able to cast. These are in addition to any bonus spells known by the familiar based on the witch’s level and her patron (see patron spells).What are the bonus spells?
- only the patron spells
- the two spell each level that the witch get for his class progression plus the patron spells
- all the above plus his intelligence bonus as first level spells
It looks like they get
all 0 level spellsthe 2 per level that you pick each level (which means you should track which 2 those are)
and the ones gained as a patron bonus.
I don't think you get the int ones at first level.
While I think that
"These are in addition to any bonus spells known by the familiar based on the witch’s level and her patron (see patron spells). is overly wordy I think the intent is that you get your patron spells too. They should have just said so though.
I'm not sure about favored class bonus. I'd probably allow it though- since otherswise your familiar dying deprives you of a FCB which otherwise can't be removed from your character.. so I'd just say that it stays. (I don't remember if hte FCB section says regardless)
Overall though, imo it sucks. I took imp familiar just to make sure my spells were safe from destruction. (imp fams are alot hardier than normal, especially if you pick a particularly defensive one).
-S
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
(reposted from a PFS thread as it is a general rule question)
A question about a witch replacing a dead familiar:
If a familiar is lost or dies, it can be replaced 1 day later through a special ritual that costs 500 gp per witch level. The ritual takes 8 hours to complete. A new familiar begins knowing all of the 0-level spells plus two spells of every level the witch is able to cast. These are in addition to any bonus spells known by the familiar based on the witch’s level and her patron (see patron spells).What are the bonus spells?
- only the patron spells
- the two spell each level that the witch get for his class progression plus the patron spells
- all the above plus his intelligence bonus as first level spells
We have ruled it's the first two, (bolded) and not the third, since the first two are clearly granted by leveling up and the third is not granted by leveling up.
It looks like they get
all 0 level spells
the 2 per level that you pick each level (which means you should track which 2 those are)
and the ones gained as a patron bonus.I don't think you get the int ones at first level.
No, you're missing some.
As written, the new familiar comes with this:
All 0 level spells
Two spells of every level the witch can cast
A number of spells equal to what the witch could have gotten as the witch leveled up to his/her current level.
The patron bonus spells
So a 7th level Witch replacing a familiar and opting not to downshift his spell pyramid would get these:
0- all
1st- 2 plus 2 for advancement to char level 2 = 4 plus the patron spell makes 5
2nd- 2 plus 2 for advancement to char level 3 plus 2 for advancement to char level 4 = 6 plus the patron spell makes 7
3rd - 2 plus 2 for advancement to char level 5 plus 2 for advancement to char level 6 = 6 plus the patron spell makes 7
4th - 2 plus 2 for advancement to char level 7 = 4 (no patron spell yet)
But note, when a witch advances he/she doesn't have to take a spell of the max level, so he/she could concieveably forego higher level spells for lower level ones, for any of the ones granted other than the base 2.
As written, it's conceivable that a high level witch could actually gain spells of high levels by cycling his familiar, but he'd certainly lose low level spells in doing so.
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Also, if your familiar dies when you're level one, you're going to be spending a long time as a commoner because of the massive cost of replacement.
Not really. You've still got your hex (or hexes, if you took Extra Hex), which can easily keep you relevant if you picked a good one. The loss of your 2 spells per day sucks, but it's hardly the end of the world.
Besides, a couple of unlucky rolls at 1st level, and you'll be spending a long time as a corpse. 1st level characters are fragile, in more ways than one.
Level 2 witches have it much worse. They have to pay twice as much to get their familiar back, only to lose the two spells they just added to their familiar (at least by my reading).
(reposted from a PFS thread as it is a general rule question)
A question about a witch replacing a dead familiar:
If a familiar is lost or dies, it can be replaced 1 day later through a special ritual that costs 500 gp per witch level. The ritual takes 8 hours to complete. A new familiar begins knowing all of the 0-level spells plus two spells of every level the witch is able to cast. These are in addition to any bonus spells known by the familiar based on the witch’s level and her patron (see patron spells).What are the bonus spells?
- only the patron spells
- the two spell each level that the witch get for his class progression plus the patron spells
- all the above plus his intelligence bonus as first level spellsWe have ruled it's the first two, (bolded) and not the third, since the first two are clearly granted by leveling up and the third is not granted by leveling up.
In which case losing a familiar would be nowhere near as harmful as a wizard losing their spell book.
Yes, spellbooks are much easier to have a back up of (though leadership or a coven makes backing up much of a familiars spell knowledge relatively easy) but familiars can be reincarnated for the cost of a backup spell book with even a few higher level spells in it.
So what happens if a witch voluntarily gets a different familiar? Like after taking Improved Familiar.
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So what happens if a witch voluntarily gets a different familiar? Like after taking Improved Familiar.
Does not compute.
Most GM's I know will transfer the witch's spell into an Improved Familiar when the witch takes the Feat, as taking a Feat is supposed to be a boon to the character, not wreck her progress.
Voluntarily replacing your familiar for other reasons, maybe because you think that a ferret would suit your outfit much better than the black cat accompanying you at the time... well, let's say I recommend you had a backup of those spells of yours.
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That's fine as a house rule, though it definitely adds spells to everything buy 1st level - ignoring purchased spells.
It's pretty clearly not what's written. The "see patron spells" makes it clear to me that the "bonus spells" are the patron spells. RAW, you get 2 spells/spell level and the bonus spells.
Your 7th level witch would have 11 spells total (8 regular and the 3 patron) plus cantrips.
Don't lose your familiar.
I disagree. It's very clearly what's written. I'll break it down for you:
"A new familiar begins knowing
1) all of the 0-level spells plus
2) two spells of every level the witch is able to cast. These are in addition to
3) any bonus spells known by the familiar based on the witch’s level and
4) her patron (see patron spells)."
That's exactly what I posted above:
All 0 level spells
Two spells of every level the witch can cast
A number of spells equal to what the witch could have gotten as the witch leveled up to his/her current level.
The patron bonus spells
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I don't think I like the patronizing undertone you are starting to sport, beej67.
In fact, the wording "These are in addition to any bonus spells known by the familiar based on the witch’s level and her patron (see patron spells)." can perfectly be read as "the bonus spells known by the familiar based on the witch's patron, as appropriate to her level.", the 'and' in the original sentence being a boolean operator rather than a separator in an enumeration.
Which, by the way, is the way I am reading it.
I don't think I like the patronizing undertone you are starting to sport, beej67.
In fact, the wording "These are in addition to any bonus spells known by the familiar based on the witch’s level and her patron (see patron spells)." can perfectly be read as "the bonus spells known by the familiar based on the witch's patron, as appropriate to her level.", the 'and' in the original sentence being a boolean operator rather than a separator in an enumeration.
Which, by the way, is the way I am reading it.
I'll admit to saying intentionally patronizing stuff in other threads, such as the "Crafting Fees Epic2000" with my buddy Selgard up there (wink) but I certainly didn't mean to sound patronizing in this thread.
I think you will agree that if a slight change in how the sentence is diagrammed and/or punctuated can double the number of spells a witch gets in a replacement familiar, that sentence is at the minimum "unclear."
Whereas I read that as "bonus spells known by the familiar based on the witch’s level and her patron (see patron spells)."
The bonus spells are the patron spells. Which ones the familiar knows are based on the patron and on the witches level.
I can see how you read it the other way, but I don't think that's a clear or obvious reading.
Especially given that it leads to the witch gaining new spells rather than being penalized by a familiar's death.
I can agree that it's unclear, but I don't think my interpretation, as clearly broken down above, is incorrect grammatically. Also please note it doesn't necessarily mean the witch gains new spells for acquiring a new familiar, it only means that if the previous familiar had accumulated very few spells.
I also point out that the rule should not be predicated on "punishing" a witch for their familiar dying, because there are many possible reasons for a witch to switch familiars, not the least obvious of which is taking Improved Familiar Feat. The rule should be predicated on what makes sense for a witch's patron to send, given a witch's relative power.
What's clear, is that when taking Improved Familiar you don't get to keep all your previous spell progress. You get a set number of spells in the new familiar, period. What's unclear is how many you get. The way I read the rule is certainly reasonable given the grammar of the text, and it also doesn't punish witches as much for taking a feat, as you would like to punish them with your interpretation. Fine. Someone flag it for FAQ.
But that would be a house rule, and no such rule is provided for in the Rules As Written. The RAW must apply the same to dead familiars and "familiar improvements," they way they're currently written. The rules *are* very clear about that, unfortunately for witch players. You can't get a new familiar until your old one is gone. Improved familiar allows you a wider range of options if you happen to seek a new familiar, it does not do away with your old one for you. You must dismiss it.
If you break it down like this:
"A new familiar begins knowing
1) all of the 0-level spells plus
2) two spells of every level the witch is able to cast. These are in addition to
3) any bonus spells known by the familiar based on the witch’s level, and
4) her patron (see patron spells)."
..that's slightly worse than what a witch would have on their familiar if they'd accumulated one additional spell per character level outside of normal progression, via scroll, friend, or blood transcription. That's not an unreasonable number of spells for a familiar to start with, and most witches would still be taking a penalty. Only very lazy witches would be getting any 'extra' spells from switching familiars.
Interpreting it any other way really, really, really hoses witches who want Improved Familiar Feat unless they have a coven or NPC witch friend to stash their spells with, unless you create yet another house rule to unhose them.
I dont know why they didnt just say "If your familiar is replaced for any reason he comes into the game knowing the exact same spell list your last familiar had."
It would have just been so much more simple. No other class looses something when they replace their familiar/companion. I dont see why a witch should.
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Personally, I found the whole thing a pain and house ruled that witches only get their patron spells from their familiars... everything else is handled via spellbook exactly like a Wizard.
If following the APG version I'd say they probably lose all the spells and thus generally wouldn't voluntarily replace their familiars.
But that would be a house rule, and no such rule is provided for in the Rules As Written.At this point, any determination on how Improved Familiar works in this case would be a house rule. Because there is NONE in the text that specifies what taking this feat actually means in the case of a pre-existing familiar.
Sure there is. That rule is clear and simple and not subject to any fuzzy grammar.
***
Improved Familiar:
Benefit: When choosing a familiar, the creatures listed here are also available to you. You may choose a familiar with an alignment up to one step away on each alignment axis (lawful through chaotic, good through evil).
Improved familiars otherwise use the rules for regular familiars, with two exceptions: if the creature's type is something other than animal, its type does not change; and improved familiars do not gain the ability to speak with other creatures of their kind (although many of them already have the ability to communicate).
***
Improved Familiar clearly states that all the rules for replacing a regular familiar apply, and it also clearly states that the only time you get to use the feat is when you're choosing a new familiar, which can only happen after the old one is dismissed or dies. If they wanted the Witch spell thing to be an exception, they would have listed it in the "exceptions" section at the end of the feat description.
Unfortunately for Witches, that part of the rules is clear as a bell.
I do think it's pretty clear that Improved Familiar is not intended to penalize you so spells should be retained or passed along. I could have sworn one of the devs commented on this when it came up before, but I can't find it now, so I was probably remembering wrong.
I'm not saying they didn't say that, but I haven't found it anywhere, and nobody else seems to be able to find it either. It's not in a FAQ.